Dear HR Departments:

Got a hot employment or interview tip to help a fellow aviator find a job or looking for a little job advice place your posting here.

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digits_
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:20 pm
If you ask for what you want, and you get it, then what's the problem?
If you're too low, they think you're not serious or properly qualified.
If you're too high, they think you're too demanding.

So you need to hit their sweet spot. Which you can only hit, if you know what they pay.
photofly wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:20 pm
Why do you care?

It's hardly a novel concept. Didn't Onario pass regulation to make it mandatory to disclose a salary range? Some states in the US have similar legislation..
Mainly to equalize salaries across genders and minority groups. I notice none of the mostly white mostly male correspondents here have given that as a reason they're worried about disclosure of salaries.
I don't know the reason. I doubt every jurisdiction had the same reasons as to why they wanted to make it publically available. I'm also not sure why the reason matters though.

Interestingly, the mostly white male correspondents here *are* advertising to make it public. But now that's somehow wrong?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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JHR
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by JHR »

Stop wasting your time on this guy, digits. Always arguing on every topic
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Blueontop
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by Blueontop »

Pay is essentially the number one deciding factor in making a decision. Very close second is working conditions/schedule.

Example is take the worst job in aviation with the worst conditions/schedule and pay a million a year more ppl will accept and covet that job then won’t. A million goes a long way to putting up with BS while working so you can live they best life when your not working.

A pilot that “doesn’t care” about money first cares then about something else first. Ie. Hours/experience and that equals easily abused and taken advantage of by unscrupulous operators.
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Roundel Randy
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by Roundel Randy »

CL-Skadoo! wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:56 pm
Aviatard wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:08 am Can we add: post the pay rate. If it says competitive compensation it isn’t. Why are you hiding it?
Our company has one of the best pay rates in the country and I am forbidden to share it. Go figure.
Which company if you don't mind my asking?
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Squaretail
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by Squaretail »

I hate to say this, but as someone who has been tasked with the job of spamming this forum with job ads, it does work to get new crops of applicants. So unless you've been in the position of hiring people, don't tell me what does and does not work for getting that first step done. There's lots of reasons to do it, and before anyone asks, no we don't post pay. For reasons already discussed above. Before you bitch at me, I ain't the one making the decision on what the content of the ad is, only the one who for some reason knows where pilot job ads should be posted (having the experience of being a pilot looking for work in the past) and have the task of sorting resumes based on criteria dictated from above.

The simplest explanation to spam an ad is because it keeps it in the upper heap of job ads on many free sites. Lots of employers don't want to spend money on advertising if they can get it for free. Avcanada benefits by having more ads, thus more traffic to the website. Hence free ads with no requirements. Ain't going to change, and besides a few vocal people who probably aren't job hunting anyways, everyone is happy with the arrangement. Last few job ads I've posted have over a thousand views before the day is out.

I also wouldn't assume that pay is the main factor in not getting the right people. Personally schedule seems to be the sticking point, and interviewing enough people, there's a lot of applicants who aren't actually as qualified as their resume suggests. Currency is a big issue these days, and having a lot of people out there who haven't done a lot of flying in the past two years seem to have forgotten how to fly airplanes.
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I'm not sure what's more depressing: That everyone has a price, or how low the price always is.
digits_
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by digits_ »

Squaretail wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 12:41 pm I hate to say this, but as someone who has been tasked with the job of spamming this forum with job ads, it does work to get new crops of applicants. So unless you've been in the position of hiring people, don't tell me what does and does not work for getting that first step done. There's lots of reasons to do it, and before anyone asks, no we don't post pay.
I'm curious though, if you had a choice, would you post pay? Would you expect more applicants if you did?
Do you think people who apply at your company already know the pay via unoffical talks with other pilots?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by PeterParker »

Squaretail wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 12:41 pm I also wouldn't assume that pay is the main factor in not getting the right people. Personally schedule seems to be the sticking point, and interviewing enough people, there's a lot of applicants who aren't actually as qualified as their resume suggests.
There are enough and more posts on AvCanada complaining about pay that will disagree with your point here. It isn't so much a question of pay or schedule. It is more of a pay and how that pertains to schedule. No one wants to work a job that pays 5 digits and also be away from the family for weeks on end. They could do something that pays about the same and do a Monday to Friday, 8 am to 5 pm and make about the same. The excitement in your 20s drains out towards your 30s and 40s when the spouse wants you to settle down and help raise the kids...

Also, on your point about people being under-qualified... I am sure you (a generalized you, pointing at almost all companies, not specifically at you meaning Squaretail) will attract better applicants if the wage and working conditions were better. Just the $0.02 a lot of posters are complaining about on this thread...
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Squaretail
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by Squaretail »

digits_ wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 1:14 pm I'm curious though, if you had a choice, would you post pay? Would you expect more applicants if you did?
I don't know tbh, I'm sort of on the fence. I would like to say I would, but then in practice I can see why people wouldn't. Applying for jobs the lack of posted pay hasn't ever deterred me, I just ask when I apply. Could there be more applicants? The resumes to a posted job ad come in a deluge. I thnk I had a hundred and twenty within the first 24 hours of the one ad being posted. The second time posted within a month netted 60 more different applicants.
Do you think people who apply at your company already know the pay via unoffical talks with other pilots?
Possibly, but if they know ahead of time the pay scale, it isn't deterring them from applying and going through the process, and none have revealed that they knew what it was.
There are enough and more posts on AvCanada complaining about pay that will disagree with your point here.
But those posts are dwarfed by the amount of applicants who are contacted back and that is the sticking point. Its seasonal work which means a busy season, and an off season which I personally like (I hate working in the winter, and my winter work if any is usually south of the border) but lots of people don't. In fact there have been a lot of guys who accept the offer, but then I think they talk over what it entails to the wife and the idea gets nixed. The pay, for what its worth, is average from what I know our competition pays.
I am sure you... ...will attract better applicants if the wage and working conditions were better. Just the $0.02 a lot of posters are complaining about on this thread...
I doubt it. I think you underestimate how many unemployed pilots there are out there. Its really difficult to sort out who is good and who isn't, from a resume or even an interview. Only the airplane really reveals. Lots of people are on paper qualified, and some over qualified. But then I have been involved with hiring people long enough that I've seen some padded resumes and faked logbooks. I mean having a more appealing job ad doesn't keep the bad ones from applying.
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I'm not sure what's more depressing: That everyone has a price, or how low the price always is.
digits_
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by digits_ »

Interesting to hear the experience from your side of the fence.

Were you advertising for low time pilots? Or ATPL holders?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Squaretail
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by Squaretail »

A range of experience levels, with multiple positions to fill. Though none required an ATPL.
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I'm not sure what's more depressing: That everyone has a price, or how low the price always is.
rigpiggy
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by rigpiggy »

Last i heard nca was paying sub 70k for 1900 Capt.
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rigpiggy
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by rigpiggy »

The market is changing again. Might as well say 'if you want me to work at your company, tell me what the salary is so we don't waste each other's time'.
[/quote]
And you think companies are bad, for their mercenary attitudes.
[/quote]

I don't think they are bad, I think they are being inefficient and I don't understand what they hope to accomplish by hiding the salary.

This............. i talked with a company on vancouver island a ways back. Salary came up fairly quick. I asked for 10k more than current job. Uhhhh I don't think that will work. Well sorry to waste your time. They are still looking for people.
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JHR
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by JHR »

I was called for an interview recently. No job description except type and base. When I finally saw the names of the interviewers I was able to do some research and found the pay was far too low for the type of plane and the schedule. Not wanting to waste anyone's time on an interview I contacted HR to cancel. If they had posted the salary upfront I would never have applied. Maybe that is what they are worried about?
Just seems very inefficient in the current environment.
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by CL-Skadoo! »

There are two sides to this coin, especially for private operators and I definitely see it from a pilot's side when viewing some of abyssmal salaries that are offered at times. However, if your salary gets out as being better than average or even superior to other operations, especially management companies, they can often use it to slide in and try to convince an operator to use them instead of having their own flight department. "Why are you spending XX when we could be saving you X by using our people and our system?".

So please aware that there are companies who benefit from hiding both low salaries and high salaries.
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

CL-Skadoo! wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:58 am "Why are you spending XX when we could be saving you X by using our people and our system?".
One would hope the answer is - '...because I like to know that the people upfront are happy, and able to afford some fairly standard North American amenities in life, so that I'm not worried when they are operating the jet that their mind is on flying and not on that they wished they had an extra X dollars....'
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digits_
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by digits_ »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:16 am
CL-Skadoo! wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:58 am "Why are you spending XX when we could be saving you X by using our people and our system?".
One would hope the answer is - '...because I like to know that the people upfront are happy, and able to afford some fairly standard North American amenities in life, so that I'm not worried when they are operating the jet that their mind is on flying and not on that they wished they had an extra X dollars....'
More realisticaly, the answer would likely be 'because after 10 years my pilots making XX are still here. How long have your pilots making X been in their position?'
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by CL-Skadoo! »

These are both correct answers. Sometimes a business mind has a tough time wrestling with these facts and for those above average salaries, the turnover is low enough to not have to publish their payscales. Granted, this is more of an exception to the rule, so don't let me take away from the intent of the thread. I just thought it is worth understanding for some.


digits_ wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:40 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:16 am
CL-Skadoo! wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:58 am "Why are you spending XX when we could be saving you X by using our people and our system?".
One would hope the answer is - '...because I like to know that the people upfront are happy, and able to afford some fairly standard North American amenities in life, so that I'm not worried when they are operating the jet that their mind is on flying and not on that they wished they had an extra X dollars....'
More realisticaly, the answer would likely be 'because after 10 years my pilots making XX are still here. How long have your pilots making X been in their position?'
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

CL-Skadoo! wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 8:53 am These are both correct answers. Sometimes a business mind has a tough time wrestling with these facts and for those above average salaries, the turnover is low enough to not have to publish their payscales. Granted, this is more of an exception to the rule, so don't let me take away from the intent of the thread. I just thought it is worth understanding for some.


digits_ wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:40 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:16 am

One would hope the answer is - '...because I like to know that the people upfront are happy, and able to afford some fairly standard North American amenities in life, so that I'm not worried when they are operating the jet that their mind is on flying and not on that they wished they had an extra X dollars....'
More realisticaly, the answer would likely be 'because after 10 years my pilots making XX are still here. How long have your pilots making X been in their position?'
You're good bud, I think going forward though, bizav needs to breakaway from the stale mentality of this is how we've always done it.

Salaries, proper crewing for the mission, schedules, bondless employment are now on the table and need to be respected. This 2 crew for a non-adjustable constant on call charter pig is getting old fast, which is why they have to bond - 24 months where the employee is paid so low they cannot leave without incurring massive debt. The companies racing to the bottom will be the first to be affected when seats go unfulfilled.
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by Launchpad1 »

If they had posted the salary upfront I would never have applied. Maybe that is what they are worried about?
I think that's exactly it.

If they put up the payscale, and you can work out the location you're expected to live, you could very quickly figure that you'd be struggling to survive so wouldn't even apply.

By reeling you in first with an interview they can a) try to sell the job with other 'benefits' and b) you're kind of more invested into it as you've prepared for the interview.

If they started putting up the payscale on Pilot job advertisements the entire industry would probably collapse as no one would become a Pilot :wink:
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rigpiggy
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Re: Dear HR Departments:

Post by rigpiggy »

So lets see, mississinippi is offering 100-130 for b200 capt. and 130-145 for Chief Pilots. Would be nice if Keewatin posted a salary range. Especially as some of there flying is even as we shall say "more robust"
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