Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

This forum has been developed to discuss flight instruction/University and College programs.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore

User avatar
Bede
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4425
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 am

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by Bede »

Aviationenthusiast wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:40 pmIf only It was like that here in Canada, would be cool, but of course it has to be about the money and business before us here :/ thanks anyway!
Be glad it isn't. I have way more stories from my few years flying 703 than I do flying for the airlines. I'd like to think that I'm a better pilot (and dinner party guest:) because of it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Aviationenthusiast
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:46 pm

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by Aviationenthusiast »

Bede wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:34 pm
Aviationenthusiast wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:40 pmIf only It was like that here in Canada, would be cool, but of course it has to be about the money and business before us here :/ thanks anyway!
Be glad it isn't. I have way more stories from my few years flying 703 than I do flying for the airlines. I'd like to think that I'm a better pilot (and dinner party guest:) because of it.
Forreal? I mean live your best life man! I know you generally get more free time flying 703 than 705 but wouldn’t it be amazing to be able to fly in a 787 cockpit!?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4051
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by PilotDAR »

but wouldn’t it be amazing to be able to fly in a 787 cockpit!?
It depends upon what makes you happy. Flying the 787 would not make me happy - because, whoever owned the cockpit, would be telling me where and when to fly it. Alternatively, it can be enjoyable to fly with a little less direct oversight.

I once picked up a large single Cessna to ferry it. It was a fleet airplane. Other pilots for the operator seemed surprised that I was going to fly it somewhere. I was a little puzzled, isn't that what you do with airplanes? I chatted with the Chief Pilot over coffee before I left. He explained that his pilots were only permitted to take off, fly the prescribed sightseeing route, and return. Zero deviations. Then I appreciated my freedom a little more, as long as I got the plane safely to the destination, no one really cared how I did it. I enjoyed that flying.

On one of my trips in one of my airplanes, I stopped to camp for the night on the shore of a lake in northern Labrador. I was on a flight itinerary with friends, who knew where to look for me if I did not turn up back at base the next day. While I was camping in the silent wilderness, I thought to myself that there was no other person within 93 miles of me!

Try a little of everything as you determine what kind of flying you want to do.
---------- ADS -----------
 
HD9113
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:05 am

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by HD9113 »

Aviationenthusiast wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:40 pm
Bede wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:35 am
Aviationenthusiast wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:31 am I was also searching for airline cadet programs and I was really intrigued to see that only European/Asian carriers have that type of program. I wonder why Air Canada and Canadian airlines don't?
Completely different industry in those countries. They don't have a pipeline of pilots that can gain experience flying smaller aircraft flying to reserves, medevacs, cargo, etc.
Ahh makes sense! If only It was like that here in Canada, would be cool, but of course it has to be about the money and business before us here :/ thanks anyway!
Not all... some Asian countries do have cadet pilot programmes that cover all the training fees of the cadets with the guarantee of a job offer once your flight training performance is good, but the selection is intense of course
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
jpilot77
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 684
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:11 pm
Location: North of YMX

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by jpilot77 »

Aviationenthusiast wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:11 pm
Bede wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:34 pm
Aviationenthusiast wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:40 pmIf only It was like that here in Canada, would be cool, but of course it has to be about the money and business before us here :/ thanks anyway!
Be glad it isn't. I have way more stories from my few years flying 703 than I do flying for the airlines. I'd like to think that I'm a better pilot (and dinner party guest:) because of it.
Forreal? I mean live your best life man! I know you generally get more free time flying 703 than 705 but wouldn’t it be amazing to be able to fly in a 787 cockpit!?
Never underestimate the importance of PIC, it might seem awesome to go right to Jazz or Encore with 250 hours until guys junior to you in the company go left seat first because they have all their ATPL requirements and you don’t. You’ll also learn a lot of valuable experience either doing some bush flying, survey, 702, 703 etc… In the end you’ll be more confident when you get to the majors.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Welcome to Redneck Airlines. We might not get you there but we'll get you close!
Aviationenthusiast
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:46 pm

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by Aviationenthusiast »

PilotDAR wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:30 pm
but wouldn’t it be amazing to be able to fly in a 787 cockpit!?
It depends upon what makes you happy. Flying the 787 would not make me happy - because, whoever owned the cockpit, would be telling me where and when to fly it. Alternatively, it can be enjoyable to fly with a little less direct oversight.

I once picked up a large single Cessna to ferry it. It was a fleet airplane. Other pilots for the operator seemed surprised that I was going to fly it somewhere. I was a little puzzled, isn't that what you do with airplanes? I chatted with the Chief Pilot over coffee before I left. He explained that his pilots were only permitted to take off, fly the prescribed sightseeing route, and return. Zero deviations. Then I appreciated my freedom a little more, as long as I got the plane safely to the destination, no one really cared how I did it. I enjoyed that flying.

On one of my trips in one of my airplanes, I stopped to camp for the night on the shore of a lake in northern Labrador. I was on a flight itinerary with friends, who knew where to look for me if I did not turn up back at base the next day. While I was camping in the silent wilderness, I thought to myself that there was no other person within 93 miles of me!

Try a little of everything as you determine what kind of flying you want to do.
Jheezzz mate that sounds so fun forreal. I guess as you grow your priorities change mine right now is to be able to fly in the 787 cockpit because that’s my dream but who knows. I guess what’s important is you get the licences and ratings
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5919
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by digits_ »

Aviationenthusiast wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:03 am Jheezzz mate that sounds so fun forreal. I guess as you grow your priorities change mine right now is to be able to fly in the 787 cockpit because that’s my dream but who knows.
The 'trap' is that once you make it into the 787 cockpit, it's unlikely you'll ever leave it.

Most students would take the 787 cockpit over a king air or a 185 job when coming out of flight school, but most would miss out on some 'fun' flying.

Aviationenthusiast wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:03 am I guess what’s important is you get the licences and ratings
It's a goal, but it's really not the most important.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Aviationenthusiast
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:46 pm

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by Aviationenthusiast »

digits_ wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:19 am
Aviationenthusiast wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:03 am Jheezzz mate that sounds so fun forreal. I guess as you grow your priorities change mine right now is to be able to fly in the 787 cockpit because that’s my dream but who knows.
The 'trap' is that once you make it into the 787 cockpit, it's unlikely you'll ever leave it.

Most students would take the 787 cockpit over a king air or a 185 job when coming out of flight school, but most would miss out on some 'fun' flying.

Aviationenthusiast wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:03 am I guess what’s important is you get the licences and ratings
It's a goal, but it's really not the most important.
Than what’s most important?
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5919
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by digits_ »

Aviationenthusiast wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:20 am
digits_ wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:19 am
Aviationenthusiast wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:03 am Jheezzz mate that sounds so fun forreal. I guess as you grow your priorities change mine right now is to be able to fly in the 787 cockpit because that’s my dream but who knows.
The 'trap' is that once you make it into the 787 cockpit, it's unlikely you'll ever leave it.

Most students would take the 787 cockpit over a king air or a 185 job when coming out of flight school, but most would miss out on some 'fun' flying.

Aviationenthusiast wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:03 am I guess what’s important is you get the licences and ratings
It's a goal, but it's really not the most important.
Than what’s most important?
Enjoy and appreciate learning to fly. Don't rush through it. It's likely to be one of the more unique experiences in your life.

You are learning to fly in one of the countries in the world that offers the most diverse pilot career. Don't skip all that to rush into an airliner seat.

From a happiness perspective, it won't matter if you end up spending 10 years or 25 years in a 767 cockpit. It's a job in the end. Financially it's different, but that should really not be your main drive in this career.

It really is all about the journey. You might never make it to your planned destination. And that's ok.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4051
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by PilotDAR »

I guess what’s important is you get the licences and ratings

It's a goal, but it's really not the most important.

Than what’s most important?
No, being competent to fly whatever you're flying is the most important. If demonstrate this, you can earn the license and rating. But the license and rating are not the objective, they are a record of your compliance. Being competent and safe is the most important. I have certainly flown with license holders, whom I believed could not completely demonstrate their competence for what they were licensed and rated to fly - and didn't know it. It's okay if you know yo need more training, and you go to get it. It's a problem when you show a license, and think that makes you competent. There is sooooo much more to be learned to be truly safe than the competency train for a license or rating will give you. Example: A float rating is seven hours of training. With that training, and a demonstration of your float competence to the training pilot, you get the rating. Are you safe flying a floatplane with seven hours experience? Barely, if conditions are great. To be insured, you'll need a lot more than that!

Aim for competence and safety, the licenses and ratings will come as you progress.

And... what Digits just posted....
---------- ADS -----------
 
Turboprops
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:47 pm

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by Turboprops »

Aviationenthusiast wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:03 am
mine right now is to be able to fly in the 787 cockpit because that’s my dream
This is what’s called “the shiny jet syndrome”
---------- ADS -----------
 
Aviationenthusiast
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:46 pm

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by Aviationenthusiast »

digits_ wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:25 am
Aviationenthusiast wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:20 am
digits_ wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:19 am

The 'trap' is that once you make it into the 787 cockpit, it's unlikely you'll ever leave it.

Most students would take the 787 cockpit over a king air or a 185 job when coming out of flight school, but most would miss out on some 'fun' flying.




It's a goal, but it's really not the most important.
Than what’s most important?
Enjoy and appreciate learning to fly. Don't rush through it. It's likely to be one of the more unique experiences in your life.

You are learning to fly in one of the countries in the world that offers the most diverse pilot career. Don't skip all that to rush into an airliner seat.

From a happiness perspective, it won't matter if you end up spending 10 years or 25 years in a 767 cockpit. It's a job in the end. Financially it's different, but that should really not be your main drive in this career.

It really is all about the journey. You might never make it to your planned destination. And that's ok.
I've never thought about it that way. At least until now. Thank you for that ✅ 👍
---------- ADS -----------
 
Aviationenthusiast
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:46 pm

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by Aviationenthusiast »

Turboprops wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:34 pm
Aviationenthusiast wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:03 am
mine right now is to be able to fly in the 787 cockpit because that’s my dream
This is what’s called “the shiny jet syndrome”
searched it up and this is what i found
https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/files/sjs-b6.pdf

🤣🤣🤣 this is accurately true and if i ever do continue onto flight school with my current mindset i might end up like Jimmy 😳😳
---------- ADS -----------
 
Aviationenthusiast
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:46 pm

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by Aviationenthusiast »

PilotDAR wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:25 am
I guess what’s important is you get the licences and ratings

It's a goal, but it's really not the most important.

Than what’s most important?
No, being competent to fly whatever you're flying is the most important. If demonstrate this, you can earn the license and rating. But the license and rating are not the objective, they are a record of your compliance. Being competent and safe is the most important. I have certainly flown with license holders, whom I believed could not completely demonstrate their competence for what they were licensed and rated to fly - and didn't know it. It's okay if you know yo need more training, and you go to get it. It's a problem when you show a license, and think that makes you competent. There is sooooo much more to be learned to be truly safe than the competency train for a license or rating will give you. Example: A float rating is seven hours of training. With that training, and a demonstration of your float competence to the training pilot, you get the rating. Are you safe flying a floatplane with seven hours experience? Barely, if conditions are great. To be insured, you'll need a lot more than that!

Aim for competence and safety, the licenses and ratings will come as you progress.

And... what Digits just posted....
Thanks for the advice 👍👍 I appreciate it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Aviationenthusiast
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:46 pm

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by Aviationenthusiast »

PilotDAR wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:51 am It'll be useful to recognize how you learn, in order that you make a selection which suits you best. If you can pick up written training material, and watch the presentations, and absorb the content very well, you can "survive" through the "busy school" environment. That is because, in the busy school environment, you'll pick up on everything, whether it's pointed out and explained to you or not. It is a certainty that the busy school program teaches you the minimums - but they'll not teach you much more than minimums, and may not actually understand the basis of the training expectation or skill (doing it by rote), so learning foundations is more challenging. Some pilots don't strive to learn the foundations, just the minimums - I've flown with a few, and it shows.

The Transport Training requirements are minimums. from my observations, the PPL skills which meet the TC requirements are a bare minimum, which if maintained will keep you safe in a good infrastructure flying environment when nothing goes wrong. The skills gained between PPL and minimum CPL improve this, but do not make you super pilot. Once you train beyond CPL, it's more airline focused, which is fine, though the training diverges from some valuable skills.

So, you option can be to seek out more tailored training, and Alec is a very good source of this. Tailored training will teach you more than the minimums, and much more than the Transport Canada minimums. Understand that if Transport Canada put everything into the PPL curriculum, which should be there to assure that you graduate with a full set of skills, PPL training would take as long as CPL training. Fewer instructors could teach it well, and it would be discouragingly long. So, Transport Canada compromises, and your choice becomes do you seek out more for yourself?

Examples of training which may not be common in busy school environments: Takeoff and landing from surfaces other than a paved runway, Training on differing airplane types, forced landing training to a landing - multiple times to a good skill standard (as opposed to going around at 200 feet, with the instructor saying that you could have made it). And, an instructor who will point you to other sources of wisdom where that might help you.

Flying is expensive. The actual cost to operate a commercial light plane nearly always exceeds $150 per hour, let alone the value of the plane itself. You might go to driving school and learn in a beater which is valued at $6000. When you're at a flying school, you're flying a plane worth $50,000 plus - like driving an AUDI at the driving school - so a cost you'll have to pay. The flying school has a considerable organizational and paperwork background to comply with Transport Canada requirements, you're paying for some of that, and you're paying for an instructor. What's it worth to fly with a recently graduated low experience instructor? What's it worth to fly with a very experienced instructor? Which can teach you more faster? How do you learn? Do you need to be shown a few times?

I have flown (a few times) for the purpose of providing advanced type training to a new owner, to observe that that new PPL pilot cannot manage the basic skills to fly that airplane safely at all, much less the more advanced skills they will need, and more to the point, if they have an emergency. Okay, we can do more training. The problem was, that they were given a "puppy mill" PPL, and truly did not meet the minimum skills to handle the plane safely - and apparently, no one told them they really needed more training - they mistakenly thought that they were safe.

Go take an introductory flight at a couple of convenient schools, and inquire about an intro flight with Alec as well. Look deep into how the teaching would be done, and how you need to learn, and consider the value of the cost...
wow thank you. This really opened my mind into a whole new realm of flying that i didn't know existed. I thought with these flight that they'd teach you a proper/advanced training not just the bare minimum. After all i guess all these flight schools really care about is their pocket so im thankful that the community introduced me to Alec. Ill definitely take a few introductory flights here and there. I messaged Alec a few days ago and im waiting for his response. Thanks for the advice, cheers
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4051
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by PilotDAR »

I thought with these flight that they'd teach you a proper/advanced training not just the bare minimum.
They may, and up to their skill capabilities, but it's not in the "quote" they'll give you, and the farther you want training beyond the TC curriculum, the more you challenge their training capabilities - which should certainly be done! But doesn't always result in the product you want.

An important question to ask will be what airplane types are available to train in - that's a start.

I had lunch with a retired B787 training pilot today, and we discussed this. He lamented that some newer pilots would takeoff with no apparent plan to compensate drift in a crosswind, and some other very basic errors. These can be based very simply on minimal experience. You want to be the pilot who is seem to fly the next biggest airplane with the hands and feel skill of the smaller one you just came from. Minimums won't get you there.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Aviationenthusiast
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:46 pm

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by Aviationenthusiast »

PilotDAR wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:40 pm
I thought with these flight that they'd teach you a proper/advanced training not just the bare minimum.
They may, and up to their skill capabilities, but it's not in the "quote" they'll give you, and the farther you want training beyond the TC curriculum, the more you challenge their training capabilities - which should certainly be done! But doesn't always result in the product you want.

An important question to ask will be what airplane types are available to train in - that's a start.

I had lunch with a retired B787 training pilot today, and we discussed this. He lamented that some newer pilots would takeoff with no apparent plan to compensate drift in a crosswind, and some other very basic errors. These can be based very simply on minimal experience. You want to be the pilot who is seem to fly the next biggest airplane with the hands and feel skill of the smaller one you just came from. Minimums won't get you there.
mhmm, but as for airplanes to train in isn't it usually Cessna's and Pipers for most flight schools?
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by photofly »

Aviationenthusiast wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:48 am mhmm, but as for airplanes to train in isn't it usually Cessna's and Pipers for most flight schools?
Mostly Cessnas, as they're approved for intentional spins, a compulsory element of PPL training in Canada. Only a very few (older) Piper models are.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4051
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by PilotDAR »

but as for airplanes to train in isn't it usually Cessna's and Pipers for most flight schools?
Valuable pilot skills will be developed in the later stages of PPL training, and early in the PPL flying experience by flying different types. It's very important to learn how an airplane flies. It's a little less important to learn only how that airplane flies.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Bede
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4425
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 am

Re: Flight Training in the Greater Toronto Area

Post by Bede »

PilotDAR wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:40 pm
I thought with these flight that they'd teach you a proper/advanced training not just the bare minimum.
They may, and up to their skill capabilities, but it's not in the "quote" they'll give you, and the farther you want training beyond the TC curriculum, the more you challenge their training capabilities - which should certainly be done! But doesn't always result in the product you want.
I think "training beyond the TC curriculum" and "base minimum" are not mutually exclusive. I've always had my students do soft field's into actual grass fields (albeit, not THAT soft) and short/obstacle into strips with short/obstacle. Whether I do this at a small field or at the paved airport makes no difference time wise. Same thing for forced approaches. Why not just go into a grass strip and land?

I find it mildly distressing that "proper/advanced training" was considered regular training a generation or 2 ago. Now a student can get a PPL without ever having flown into a grass strip (let alone solo), but requires 5 hours of instrument flight time.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Flight Training”