Hiring Minimums

[RobTouch]

Newbie here, please be gentle!!!
I'm just getting started on training, and I'm trying to learn the lay of the land.
I saw this posting on the West Jet site - does anyone get hired with these minimums or is this just a marketing ploy?



Encore First Officer (Q400) minimum experience and qualifications: 
• 250 hours total time 
• 100 hours fixed-wing pilot-in-command time*
• Valid Transport Canada Group 1 Instrument Rating 
• Valid Transport Canada Class 1 Medical Certificate 
• Transport Canada Commercial Pilot Licence (CPL)  
• Transport Canada Airline Transport Pilot Licence (ATPL) is preferred 
• Completion of either the IATRA or the SAMRA and SARON.  (Exams must be valid)


Thanks in advance for any thoughts and comments!

Rob

[Conflicting Traffic]

I saw this posting on the West Jet site - does anyone get hired with these minimums or is this just a marketing ploy?


Encore First Officer (Q400) minimum experience and qualifications: 
• 250 hours total time 
• 100 hours fixed-wing pilot-in-command time*
• Valid Transport Canada Group 1 Instrument Rating 
• Valid Transport Canada Class 1 Medical Certificate 
• Transport Canada Commercial Pilot Licence (CPL)  
• Transport Canada Airline Transport Pilot Licence (ATPL) is preferred 
• Completion of either the IATRA or the SAMRA and SARON.  (Exams must be valid)

At present, nobody is getting hired at (or near) 250 h. However, as the COVID recovery is ramping up, that's expected to change by the end of the summer. Time will tell if that actually happens, but there is good reason to be optimistic.

[RobTouch]

Thanks for the response.

I'm trying to assess whether a full-time program is worth it if these types of minimums could really get someone hired. It sounds an awful lot like job postings that say "salary up to $100K", when in reality everybody gets hired for $50K.

I know the need is there, but are there a bunch of ready-to-hire pilots out there with a ton more hours? If yes, then those are likely the people get hired, right?

[Aspiredtofly]

Thanks for the response.

I'm trying to assess whether a full-time program is worth it if these types of minimums could really get someone hired. It sounds an awful lot like job postings that say "salary up to $100K", when in reality everybody gets hired for $50K.

I know the need is there, but are there a bunch of ready-to-hire pilots out there with a ton more hours? If yes, then those are likely the people get hired, right?

How do you know that '' in reality everybody gets hired for $50K''. I'm not sure if this is true either but if it is then that's quite awful

[Big Pistons Forever]

In a year there is going to be a huge pilot shortage. With the COVID downturn a lot of senior pilots took early retirement at the mainline carriers and there are a significant number of zero to hero new hire young people at the regionals that have established themselves in new careers and are not going back to the junior FO roller coaster.

The pilot shortage was just beginning to really bite when COVID stopped the music. There we shortages at every level and that was before the working pilot pool shrunk and the new duty regs required about 10 % more pilots to fly the same schedule.

I think there is going to be carnage at the 703 operators and FTU's as they find they can't get pilots and instructors

[RobTouch]

How do you know that '' in reality everybody gets hired for $50K''. I'm not sure if this is true either but if it is then that's quite awful
[/quote]


I absolutely agree! I wasn't talking about the pilot world - I definitely don't know enough to comment. I was talking general want ad type stuff, where a range of salaries are posted, and everybody gets offered the low end of the scale automatically.

I'm just hopeful that someone near the posted total time minimums might be considered - if in reality, nobody with less than 750 hours is considered, then don't put 250 in the job post, right?

[780Pilot]

In a year there is going to be a huge pilot shortage. With the COVID downturn a lot of senior pilots took early retirement at the mainline carriers and there are a significant number of zero to hero new hire young people at the regionals that have established themselves in new careers and are not going back to the junior FO roller coaster.

The pilot shortage was just beginning to really bite when COVID stopped the music. There we shortages at every level and that was before the working pilot pool shrunk and the new duty regs required about 10 % more pilots to fly the same schedule.

I think there is going to be carnage at the 703 operators and FTU's as they find they can't get pilots and instructors

I can confirm on the instructor side of things. I left for a 704 operator and my old boss is staring down the barrel right now. He’s got 3 guys on staff right now for instructors, all class 4. They will all be gone by the end of the summer for sure with zero replacements. One is an MRU grad and will probably get on with Encore and the other two will be at the very least on a king air op. By the fall who knows, perhaps Jazz will take guys with 1000 TT with bare bones MIFR.

[Tolip]

In a year there is going to be a huge pilot shortage. With the COVID downturn a lot of senior pilots took early retirement at the mainline carriers and there are a significant number of zero to hero new hire young people at the regionals that have established themselves in new careers and are not going back to the junior FO roller coaster.

The pilot shortage was just beginning to really bite when COVID stopped the music. There we shortages at every level and that was before the working pilot pool shrunk and the new duty regs required about 10 % more pilots to fly the same schedule.

I think there is going to be carnage at the 703 operators and FTU's as they find they can't get pilots and instructors

I can confirm on the instructor side of things. I left for a 704 operator and my old boss is staring down the barrel right now. He’s got 3 guys on staff right now for instructors, all class 4. They will all be gone by the end of the summer for sure with zero replacements. One is an MRU grad and will probably get on with Encore and the other two will be at the very least on a king air op. By the fall who knows, perhaps Jazz will take guys with 1000 TT with bare bones MIFR.

I agree with you, that is the deffinilty the direction we are heading in. But I do think that that you, like most are dramatically over estimating the timeline. Pilots that are at jazz and encore are not even being given a full flight schedule yet in some cases not even close to a full schedule. Best estimates are that (on good days) we are currently operating at 75 percent of of 2019 levels, still a far cry away from where we were. No new hires yet and final recalls and training are not yet complete for AC Westjet encore or Jazz.

The only two companies even planning upcomming new hires are jazz and encore, however they have set no date to any ground school nor have they released any plans on the size or number of new hire groundschool. I believe that these new hires are mearly intended to awaken the HR and training departments within these companies as no one has done a new hire or an initial class in over two years. Aswell, these job postings are intended to grow a "pool" of new pilots that can be triggered just incase depend and growth surprised expectations.

So to suggest that these expected hires are going to somehow trigger another pilot shortage by summers end Is totally just not even in the realm of reality at all. Pilots still need to drastically get their expectations under control. There has been zero attrition from every 703 and 704 and smaller 705 airline in the whole country for 2.5 years. All of whom at this point are extremely extremely qualified applicants, who after 2.5 plus years with these smaller airlines will deffinitly all be crawling over each other to get to the majors. Not to mention that there are 2.5 years worth of new pilots that have not been hired at all that will still feed all these lower end pilot positions.

Basically, I agree with you. But dont get excited, I dont forseee actual pilot shortages until 2024 or 2025. And until then I forsee experience requirements at majors to be very very high

[Hangry]

AC is also planning new hire ground schools FWIW.

[Tolip]

AC is also planning new hire ground schools FWIW.

So is westjet, in so far as to say that both WJ and AC have said they are going to not hire per say, but flow into some new positions. How ever neither have given any deets what so ever about what that will look like, both comanys havnt even recalled and trained back all employees ( especially AC). And neither company is.anywhere close to 2019 booking levels. So that blanket statement doesnt really have any real meaning to pilots.

I do believe both company's will do a class or two by the end of the year. But, not out of necessity. They will run these new classes just for the purposes of exercising their HR departments, dusting off initial training programs and appeasing flow requirements. In terms of actual need, at present, non of these companies need any new hires what so ever.

[Hangry]

AC is also planning new hire ground schools FWIW.

So is westjet, in so far as to say that both WJ and AC have said they are going to not hire per say, but flow into some new positions. How ever neither have given any deets what so ever about what that will look like, both comanys havnt even recalled and trained back all employees ( especially AC). And neither company is.anywhere close to 2019 booking levels. So that blanket statement doesnt really have any real meaning to pilots.

I do believe both company's will do a class or two by the end of the year. But, not out of necessity. They will run these new classes just for the purposes of exercising their HR departments, dusting off initial training programs and appeasing flow requirements. In terms of actual need, at present, non of these companies need any new hires what so ever.

That’s incorrect.

[Tolip]

AC is also planning new hire ground schools FWIW.

So is westjet, in so far as to say that both WJ and AC have said they are going to not hire per say, but flow into some new positions. How ever neither have given any deets what so ever about what that will look like, both comanys havnt even recalled and trained back all employees ( especially AC). And neither company is.anywhere close to 2019 booking levels. So that blanket statement doesnt really have any real meaning to pilots.

I do believe both company's will do a class or two by the end of the year. But, not out of necessity. They will run these new classes just for the purposes of exercising their HR departments, dusting off initial training programs and appeasing flow requirements. In terms of actual need, at present, non of these companies need any new hires what so ever.

That’s incorrect.

Please, enlighten me to your optimistic opinion

[Conflicting Traffic]

The only two companies even planning upcomming new hires are jazz and encore, however they have set no date to any ground school nor have they released any plans on the size or number of new hire groundschool.

You raise some good points. but Encore is running two new-hire groundschools in April. Dates are set, hiring is done.

I dont forseee actual pilot shortages until 2024 or 2025. And until then I forsee experience requirements at majors to be very very high

In the sense that we never had an actual shortage pre-COVID either (many peoples' insistence to the contrary notwithstanding), you're probably right. But I expect we'll return to something close to the pre-COVID healthy job market sometime this year. An actual shortage is still possible, but I suspect you're right that it will take longer to show up (if it does at all).

[Tolip]

The only two companies even planning upcomming new hires are jazz and encore, however they have set no date to any ground school nor have they released any plans on the size or number of new hire groundschool.

You raise some good points. but Encore is running two new-hire groundschools in April. Dates are set, hiring is done.

I dont forseee actual pilot shortages until 2024 or 2025. And until then I forsee experience requirements at majors to be very very high

In the sense that we never had an actual shortage pre-COVID either (many peoples' insistence to the contrary notwithstanding), you're probably right. But I expect we'll return to something close to the pre-COVID healthy job market sometime this year. An actual shortage is still possible, but I suspect you're right that it will take longer to show up (if it does at all).

Your right I had forgotten that encore did actually post a date for their new hire Gs's, but still isn't it for like 20.people total and only two classes? Beyond that there is still no other plans I've herd, Jazz only posted a new hire posting like a few weeks ago. So they will be a while before they actually get to running a groundschool. And with the international market still being so bad. AC wont require new hires ( eventhough they will likly run some as I mentioned above) and as for WJ, with their sunwing merger and integration I dont see much room.for newhires there (again they will run afew classes to appease flow)

For me, I classify a pilot shortage as when my union actually has some bargaining power. So from what I am.seeing, we are far far from that.

[tbaylx]

The only two companies even planning upcomming new hires are jazz and encore, however they have set no date to any ground school nor have they released any plans on the size or number of new hire groundschool.

You raise some good points. but Encore is running two new-hire groundschools in April. Dates are set, hiring is done.

I dont forseee actual pilot shortages until 2024 or 2025. And until then I forsee experience requirements at majors to be very very high

In the sense that we never had an actual shortage pre-COVID either (many peoples' insistence to the contrary notwithstanding), you're probably right. But I expect we'll return to something close to the pre-COVID healthy job market sometime this year. An actual shortage is still possible, but I suspect you're right that it will take longer to show up (if it does at all).

Your right I had forgotten that encore did actually post a date for their new hire Gs's, but still isn't it for like 20.people total and only two classes? Beyond that there is still no other plans I've herd, Jazz only posted a new hire posting like a few weeks ago. So they will be a while before they actually get to running a groundschool. And with the international market still being so bad. AC wont require new hires ( eventhough they will likly run some as I mentioned above) and as for WJ, with their sunwing merger and integration I dont see much room.for newhires there (again they will run afew classes to appease flow)

For me, I classify a pilot shortage as when my union actually has some bargaining power. So from what I am.seeing, we are far far from that.

It's a lot closer than you think. AC will be fully recalled by summer and running courses before fall. Sunwing wants to run 40+ aircraft next winter and rumors are they may hire DEC's by fall. Lynx and Flair are each taking 8-10 aircraft next year so will be ramping up hiring by end of 2022. Porter has significant expansion with Embraers. There is going to be a significant shortage of qualified ATPL pilots in Canada 705 ops by 2023 which will trickle down to 703 in a big way.

Smaller operators are already getting cleaned out by just Flair hiring. Add the rest into the mix and it's going to be very much a pilots market barring some other major COVID resurgence and lockdown

[Babar350]

You raise some good points. but Encore is running two new-hire groundschools in April. Dates are set, hiring is done.


In the sense that we never had an actual shortage pre-COVID either (many peoples' insistence to the contrary notwithstanding), you're probably right. But I expect we'll return to something close to the pre-COVID healthy job market sometime this year. An actual shortage is still possible, but I suspect you're right that it will take longer to show up (if it does at all).

Your right I had forgotten that encore did actually post a date for their new hire Gs's, but still isn't it for like 20.people total and only two classes? Beyond that there is still no other plans I've herd, Jazz only posted a new hire posting like a few weeks ago. So they will be a while before they actually get to running a groundschool. And with the international market still being so bad. AC wont require new hires ( eventhough they will likly run some as I mentioned above) and as for WJ, with their sunwing merger and integration I dont see much room.for newhires there (again they will run afew classes to appease flow)

For me, I classify a pilot shortage as when my union actually has some bargaining power. So from what I am.seeing, we are far far from that.

It's a lot closer than you think. AC will be fully recalled by summer and running courses before fall. Sunwing wants to run 40+ aircraft next winter and rumors are they may hire DEC's by fall. Lynx and Flair are each taking 8-10 aircraft next year so will be ramping up hiring by end of 2022. Porter has significant expansion with Embraers. There is going to be a significant shortage of qualified ATPL pilots in Canada 705 ops by 2023 which will trickle down to 703 in a big way.

Smaller operators are already getting cleaned out by just Flair hiring. Add the rest into the mix and it's going to be very much a pilots market barring some other major COVID resurgence and lockdown

At what point do you think it will help raise the wages? Encore and Jazz are stuck with a 45k annual income, which makes it hard for people to live in Toronto or Vancouver for example. Flair, Swoop, Sunwing and Lynx are still paying captains very low salaries compared to Westjet and Air Canada.

Do you foresee retention bonuses for those low-income pilots?

[tbaylx]

Your right I had forgotten that encore did actually post a date for their new hire Gs's, but still isn't it for like 20.people total and only two classes? Beyond that there is still no other plans I've herd, Jazz only posted a new hire posting like a few weeks ago. So they will be a while before they actually get to running a groundschool. And with the international market still being so bad. AC wont require new hires ( eventhough they will likly run some as I mentioned above) and as for WJ, with their sunwing merger and integration I dont see much room.for newhires there (again they will run afew classes to appease flow)

For me, I classify a pilot shortage as when my union actually has some bargaining power. So from what I am.seeing, we are far far from that.

It's a lot closer than you think. AC will be fully recalled by summer and running courses before fall. Sunwing wants to run 40+ aircraft next winter and rumors are they may hire DEC's by fall. Lynx and Flair are each taking 8-10 aircraft next year so will be ramping up hiring by end of 2022. Porter has significant expansion with Embraers. There is going to be a significant shortage of qualified ATPL pilots in Canada 705 ops by 2023 which will trickle down to 703 in a big way.

Smaller operators are already getting cleaned out by just Flair hiring. Add the rest into the mix and it's going to be very much a pilots market barring some other major COVID resurgence and lockdown

At what point do you think it will help raise the wages? Encore and Jazz are stuck with a 45k annual income, which makes it hard for people to live in Toronto or Vancouver for example. Flair, Swoop, Sunwing and Lynx are still paying captains very low salaries compared to Westjet and Air Canada.

Do you foresee retention bonuses for those low-income pilots?

The wage structure will come up when contract negotiations begin as is the case for a few carriers currently or shortly, the remainder will be adjusted when they can no longer attract the required level of experience required for the operation. That will vary depending on the carrier. Lynx needs a much more experienced group of pilots for training department positions and direct entry captains than WestJet for example that already has a training department set up and is only hiring FO's that potentially won't upgrade for ~10 years.

Look south of the border for what to expect here, mid-contract wage increases, Lynx's $15k/year retention bonus scheme, Encore's lowering of FO experience to 250 hours are all beginnings of what's to come.

That will eventually transfer through to pilot wage increases as it becomes more competitive in 2023 and beyond.

[mmm..bacon]

AC will be fully recalled by summer and running courses before fall. Sunwing wants to run 40+ aircraft next winter and rumors are they may hire DEC's by fall. Lynx and Flair are each taking 8-10 aircraft next year so will be ramping up hiring by end of 2022. Porter has significant expansion with Embraers.

...All of which is dependent on getting enough passenger bums into seats. Where is all of the passenger growth going to come from to fill all of those available seats? Yes, there's "stimulating the market", and VFR travel, but I think that Westjet already pulled that rabbit out of the hat several years ago. Time will tell whether Flair, Lynx, and Porter can find their own rabbits; I might be convinced that one of them will, but not three...

[FlyAlberta]

The only two companies even planning upcomming new hires are jazz and encore, however they have set no date to any ground school nor have they released any plans on the size or number of new hire groundschool.

You raise some good points. but Encore is running two new-hire groundschools in April. Dates are set, hiring is done.

I dont forseee actual pilot shortages until 2024 or 2025. And until then I forsee experience requirements at majors to be very very high

In the sense that we never had an actual shortage pre-COVID either (many peoples' insistence to the contrary notwithstanding), you're probably right. But I expect we'll return to something close to the pre-COVID healthy job market sometime this year. An actual shortage is still possible, but I suspect you're right that it will take longer to show up (if it does at all).

Your right I had forgotten that encore did actually post a date for their new hire Gs's, but still isn't it for like 20.people total and only two classes? Beyond that there is still no other plans I've herd, Jazz only posted a new hire posting like a few weeks ago. So they will be a while before they actually get to running a groundschool. And with the international market still being so bad. AC wont require new hires ( eventhough they will likly run some as I mentioned above) and as for WJ, with their sunwing merger and integration I dont see much room.for newhires there (again they will run afew classes to appease flow)

For me, I classify a pilot shortage as when my union actually has some bargaining power. So from what I am.seeing, we are far far from that.

WJ is cautiously optimistic that this summer will be at or above pre Covid levels

Encore is running 2 classes every month for the remainder of the year starting April 4. That’s north of 150 new pilots at Encore alone.

Swoop starts new hire classes in April.

WJ mainline has vacancies as of the June bid.


That’s just the WJ group…..

I’d be willing to bet my left nut that we’ll be in a pilot shortage pickle by the end of this year.

[Blackdog0301]

Swoop has been running a new hire ground school consisting of 15-18 pilots every week for almost a month now from what I understand, and there's no end in sight.