Captains of the North, what make you stay?

[ICUP]

I have been always curious why the turnover in some respectable Northern operators is so low. What makes you stay? The salary? The challenge? The working conditions? As I understand many of these positions are rotational. Would that type of schedule allow you establish a life/family down south and work up north?

[young grasshopper]

Short answer: there is something in it for everyone who stays.

Though I don’t do rotational work up here, life is good. Everything is 15 minutes away, I can bid my schedule to be home 27-28 days per month on average (unless you want to do training or out of town work). That applies to junior folks too. My wife loves it up here too; having a partner that enjoys it is key.

The kids will have most of their university paid for once they are done school (Territorial govt pays for it). Lots of opportunities for the kids to represent the Territory on a national stage for sporting events.

The crews are great for the most part. Money also happens to be well above industry average (everyone is comfortable and then some). I was born up here so having family up here (including Mrs Young Grasshopper’s family) also makes it a no-brainer to stay.

Is it perfect? Nope. But, no job is perfect! I also find that you can focus on the bad part(s) of a job and make yourself miserable, no matter what the job is. We’re happy here, and see ourselves here for the long run. It’s not for everyone, but it works great for our family.


PS- don’t tell anyone about it though.



Jeff





Edited for a grammatical error.

[porcsord]

I hate cities, airports, commuting and hotels.

I like mountain biking, time off, being home, making a comfortable living.

It's a pretty easy choice.

[Loading...]

I hate cities, airports, commuting and hotels.

I like mountain biking, time off, being home, making a comfortable living.

It's a pretty easy choice.

What do captains make up there?
And are you talking about a king air captain, or flying a 737 for Air North?
Thanks

[2112]

I've been able to build a life up north that I couldn't even afford to dream about down south. My love of the outdoors and absolute hatred of 400 series highways certainly made it an easier choice as well. I'm not a tin chaser either and enjoy the flying up here.

[LifeAt90Kts]

You get to a point where you’d have to take a huge pay cut and schedule hit to move to the “majors”. It’s affordable to buy houses and all the snowmobiles and boats and whatever to enjoy the outdoors up here. Makes it harder and harder to leave, so unless you have shiny jet syndrome you just settle into a nice comfortable life and stick around.

Right now I make about 2.5 times what an AC FO makes, and I’d likely be in the right seat for 4-5 years since all my MPIC won’t matter against low seniority… So here I’ll stay. I realize once you upgrade the pay increases exponentially, but I spent years as a broke FO and don’t have any desire to repeat it.

[Tbayer2021]

You get to a point where you’d have to take a huge pay cut and schedule hit to move to the “majors”. It’s affordable to buy houses and all the snowmobiles and boats and whatever to enjoy the outdoors up here. Makes it harder and harder to leave, so unless you have shiny jet syndrome you just settle into a nice comfortable life and stick around.

Right now I make about 2.5 times what an AC FO makes, and I’d likely be in the right seat for 4-5 years since all my MPIC won’t matter against low seniority… So here I’ll stay. I realize once you upgrade the pay increases exponentially, but I spent years as a broke FO and don’t have any desire to repeat it.

Ahh yes, the golden handcuffs. I'm sure its happening to an ever increasing number of people these days. Unless you got into the housing market 5+ years ago in southern Ontario, you'd currently need 200+ to afford anything decent down here. The exact same reason why more and more have chosen to leave the big city if they can work remote, or just take the commute. I wouldn't be surprised if you'd have a better quality of life making 150K up North, than a captain making 250K in any of the major cities, save for YYC I guess.

[rudder]

Right now I make about 2.5 times what an AC FO makes, …

There were unbid B777 FO vacancies in the last AC bid. Off formula pay, that is a $180k job at 5th year working at worst 15 days per month and $250k with a little overtime at year 12.

There is no comparison between what you would make in 25 years at AC vs 703/704. And then factor in pension.

However, that job would be based in one of the 3 most expensive cities in Canada. Pick your poison. Reality is anybody that was in one of the high cost real estate markets more than 5 years ago has at least doubled the value of their real estate holdings. 2x500k is a lot more equity than 2x$200k.

AC isn’t for everybody. But a career in aviation is a long game. Picking a 35-40 year “sure thing” is next to impossible. But what I do know is that every pilot at AC with 25 years can hold a WB CA position if they want with a minimum $300k payday. And while that is mediocre by US standards, that is the top of the earnings food chain for a pilot in Canada.

It does, however, come with a huge income tax bill. Probably about equal to what you are earning right now.

p.s. while houses may still be affordable in YTS, they are not in YXY. Everything is relative. Make good choices.

[altiplano]

As rudder mentioned...

I'm not sure what the impression of what an "AC FO makes" is, and it should be more, but any AC FO on formula pay is a well paying job. 2.5x that would be more than an AC 777 skipper... no doubt why would you leave that!

Anyway, I get it, access to recreation, fishing, hunting, open spaces... pretty ideal. How much money do you really need to live a happy life? And managing your participation in the rat races that is life in Canadian cities can be a challenge to itself.

That said, lots at AC live off base... a few years in base, get some seniority and options and live where you want works for many.

[digits_]

However, that job would be based in one of the 3 most expensive cities in Canada. Pick your poison. Reality is anybody that was in one of the high cost real estate markets more than 5 years ago has at least doubled the value of their real estate holdings. 2x500k is a lot more equity than 2x$200k.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the chosen aviation career path. That's just pure (bad?) luck. Your equity also only matters if you move out of the city. If you stay in the city, you'll need it to afford another house.

I'm not sure what the impression of what an "AC FO makes" is, and it should be more, but any AC FO on formula pay is a well paying job. 2.5x that would be more than an AC 777 skipper... no doubt why would you leave that!

Don't you start on flat pay for 4 years? Isn't that what a new FO would make? It's a significant difference, living on sub 100k vs 150k for 4 years.

[Ash Ketchum]

Reading all these posts makes me want to move back up north and fly 703/704 again. If my wife wasn't against it I would make the move. Hard to support a family in major city these days on flat pay. Hopefully quick upgrades return and things get easier in the next short while.

[beaverpuq]

A majority of the Canadian population lives in the most unremarkable geographic parts of our country. I hate traffic noise and love Loons.

[Tbayer2021]

However, that job would be based in one of the 3 most expensive cities in Canada. Pick your poison. Reality is anybody that was in one of the high cost real estate markets more than 5 years ago has at least doubled the value of their real estate holdings. 2x500k is a lot more equity than 2x$200k.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the chosen aviation career path. That's just pure (bad?) luck. Your equity also only matters if you move out of the city. If you stay in the city, you'll need it to afford another house.

I'm not sure what the impression of what an "AC FO makes" is, and it should be more, but any AC FO on formula pay is a well paying job. 2.5x that would be more than an AC 777 skipper... no doubt why would you leave that!

Don't you start on flat pay for 4 years? Isn't that what a new FO would make? It's a significant difference, living on sub 100k vs 150k for 4 years.

I think the point being is that everyone always seems to only talk about the 4 years of flat pay and ignore the rest of a career at AC. Even if you stay as an FO, your earnings alone will far surpass that of any Northern operator, and thats not to even speak of the benefits and pension. I'm sure most people pointing at flat pay have quite a bit of seniority in whatever outfit they're at. A brand new ATR FO at Calm, 737 FO at Air North, King Air/Metro or 1900 captain at XYZ Air isn't making 2.5 times an AC FO on flat pay even.

This is why they're called the golden handcuffs. They spend enough time in those companies to maybe upgrade, build a bit of a life for themselves. Maybe a mortgage, wife, kids and some toys. You can see why sacrificing those things can become difficult. I'm sure plenty of pilots end up settling up there if they find they like the lifestyle, specially the local ones. But there is a reason the vast majority of pilots that go up there are desperate to leave and return to their home towns and cities. And don't get it confused, the North may have the financial advantage for the first few years when comparing someone with some seniority up there to a brand new airline FO. But the career earnings, benefits, pension and lifestyle are far exceeded by the airlines.

That being said, life isn't all about that last dollar. Plenty of people have a better quality of life than others earning more than them. Life is what you make of it.

[digits_]

I think the point being is that everyone always seems to only talk about the 4 years of flat pay and ignore the rest of a career at AC. Even if you stay as an FO, your earnings alone will far surpass that of any Northern operator, and thats not to even speak of the benefits and pension. I'm sure most people pointing at flat pay have quite a bit of seniority in whatever outfit they're at.

If the Northern guy is making 2.5 flat pay, then during the first 4 year of flat pay, he would miss out on, roughly:
Year 1: 150k - 60k = 90k
Year 2: 150k - 65k = 85k
Year 3: 150k - 70k = 80k
Year 4: 150k - 80k = 70k
(that's estimates based on info in other topics, might be wrong)

That's a total of 325k in 4 years. Even after taxes, that's enough for a down payment on a decent sized house. Maybe even a full house itself up north.

Then when you go to formula pay, avcanada wisdom seems to claim the pay would be somewhat comparable the next 4 years. But then you still need to compensate for those 325k that you've lost in the first 4 years.

So likely about 12 years before you break even, maybe more. And after that you might get the 200k+ benefits of a major airline, if the company doesn't go bust.

In Toronto, that would also mean you likely won't be able to buy a house for another 10 years. Whereas the northern captain likely already owns his house.

[Tbayer2021]

Thats a great comparison. Now do one comparing the senior guy that decided to stay and is making 150k after 10+ years up north, versus the wet CPL that went to regionals as soon as he had 500-1K hours.

Or even the senior Northern pilot's contemporaries that didn't take the upgrade years ago and left for the regionals or majors.

[digits_]

Thats a great comparison. Now do one comparing the senior guy that decided to stay and is making 150k after 10+ years up north, versus the wet CPL that went to regionals as soon as he had 500-1K hours.

Or even the senior Northern pilot's contemporaries that didn't take the upgrade years ago and left for the regionals or majors.

Well yes the airlines would very likely win if they don't go bust.
But this topic is about a captain of the north staying vs going to the airlines.

Most people, if they had the choice, would likely go to the airlines asap for the money later down the road.

The captains of the north making good money now, likely ended up there years ago during 'bad airline times' or because they didn't match with the HR requriements of the day, making the north the only feasible option or for whatever other reason. Now they have settled and are either happy or have accepted their faith. It doesn't make sense for them to move anymore.

If you go really dramatic, you could call it a 'lost generation' for the airlines

[Tbayer2021]

All fair points I can definitely agree with. But lets not pretend northern operators can't go bust either.

I think thats exactly what they call the 2000-2010 period in the US, no? "The lost decade"?

[digits_]

All fair points I can definitely agree with. But lets not pretend northern operators can't go bust either.

True, but looking at the operators that have gone bust, personally I haven't seen any that pay 150k (although I'm sure there are). Once they reach the ability to pay that salary, a certain level of stability has been achieved. You're also less depending on economics. If an operator goes bust, a new one *will* rise, as the groceries need to be delivered or people die. Same with medevac services up there. The North *needs* airplanes. the south -up to a point- doesn't.

[porcsord]

Yup, I'll earn less where I am than at AC over my career, I've accepted that.

It also means I average 9 days of work a month, I'll be mortgage free before I'm 40, my commute to work is 7 minutes by car, 16 by mountain bike. I have a comfortable retirement setup, and to be honest, I just love my life and I'm very happy. I've worked over seas, made the big tax free bucks, but it turns out, money (passed a certain amount) doesn't make me more happy. My life outside of work does. And that's why I stay in the north.

[twa22]

I personally believe that it mostly boils down to personality at the end of the day. There are certain people that can't stand the city, while others wouldn't live the rest of there lives up north, even if they made double the salary of an WB CA at AC... for most it comes down to what kind of life they desire, leaving aside the monetary aspect. Yes there are those who are adaptability, and some learn to love the north, and vice versa, but that's a very small percentage at the end of the day, in my opinion