CYBW Mooney Crash

[truecolours]

A few thousand hours between them, and yet they failed to recognize the danger in taking off that day. "Icing" should jump right out at you when you see a temperature hovering around 0 and a forecast of rain, snow, and mist.

What a sad and completely unnecessary occurrence.

[AirFrame]

It makes the weather briefing statement in the report obsolete.

It makes it incomplete, but it's not obsolete. They just need better ways to know what other weather sources may have been checked. Take notes when you get a briefing from NavCanada online, or from WUnderground, or whereever. At least if they find it on your kneeboard they'll know you got weather from somewhere.

Better yet, once you get your briefing, don't push limits into sh*tty weather, and you won't show up in a TSB report...

[sportingrifle]

True colours….I agree….as I posted earlier, an advanced single has just enough performance and capabilities to get you into a world of hurt on a day like that. The other puzzling thing is what kind of a type check were they hoping to achieve? Certainly not stalls, slow flight, simulated engine failures, or circuits. When I am teaching IFR I spend a lot of time discussing when not to go flying and I think this isn’t stressed enough. Probably because a lot of the people teaching instrument flying have very little real world instrument flying experience.

[rookiepilot]

True colours….I agree….as I posted earlier, an advanced single has just enough performance and capabilities to get you into a world of hurt on a day like that. The other puzzling thing is what kind of a type check were they hoping to achieve? Certainly not stalls, slow flight, simulated engine failures, or circuits. When I am teaching IFR I spend a lot of time discussing when not to go flying and I think this isn’t stressed enough. Probably because a lot of the people teaching instrument flying have very little real world instrument flying experience.

Agreed +100.

I found this case study shocking as to what unforecast icing can do to a (much more) powerful airplane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JkLR_xgayM

[Donald]

I'm certainly not looking to cast judgement, but I wonder how much time pressure may have affected their decision to conduct the flight?

The report mentioned this flight was to train, prior to delivery to a new owner.

[digits_]

I found this case study shocking as to what unforecast icing can do to a (much more) powerful airplane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JkLR_xgayM

How was the youtube movie unforecasted? Lots of pireps with icing reports. ATC was aware as well.

[rookiepilot]

I found this case study shocking as to what unforecast icing can do to a (much more) powerful airplane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JkLR_xgayM

How was the youtube movie unforecasted? Lots of pireps with icing reports. ATC was aware as well.

Don't think the severe incidents were forecast nor pireps issued till after the pilot took off, and no one told him. (nor did he appear to ask)

Should have descended immediately but hindsight of course is perfect.

[photofly]

Maybe heavier-than-forecast is a better term.

[trey kule]

It is my understanding that the pilot flying had zero instructional experience. A bit puzzling that he was in the left seat.
In any event he did have hundreds upon hundreds of IF experience throughout Canada , the US and transatlantic trips.

If only the two of them had all the wisdom of the posters here, who sitting behind their keyboards with 100% correct hindsight, pontificate on the dangers of ice.

Ice is a killer. And we have all, even the condescending posters here, made bad decisions flying. The truth is that for most of us we lucked out and only the stains in our underwear reflect the outcome.

Reading some of the posts I am gobsmacked by how uninformed some pilots are about the effects of ice on an aircraft. Doesn’t seem to stop them from posting.

[pdw]

If only the two of them had all the wisdom of the posters here, who sitting behind their keyboards with 100% correct hindsight, pontificate on the dangers of ice.

After the pilot’s ‘icing-realization’’ at 5000ft agl, this may have been clean configuration approach throughout. It appears to be a stable approach (high ground speed and even higher airspeed) up to last flightaware hit of 73kts GS (the decision height). That 73 is also the IAS there at 200-250ft agl, given on 345 M rwy heading and “speci 0606kts” groundwind being valid then. So now it more easily could get slow right there in not having allowed any edge flaps out within this emergency or concern about the ice accretion.

[digits_]

It is my understanding that the pilot flying had zero instructional experience. A bit puzzling that he was in the left seat.

Probably an insurance requirement? Doesn't look like formal instruction was required. Not that uncommon to satisfy an insurance requirement with whomever is available and meets the insurance requirements. Instructor or not.

Reading some of the posts I am gobsmacked by how uninformed some pilots are about the effects of ice on an aircraft. Doesn’t seem to stop them from posting.

Why don't you correct the wrong information? Share your knowledge.

[rookiepilot]

It is my understanding that the pilot flying had zero instructional experience.

Ahhh.

The 3 bars your class 4 FI wears, though with zero actual time in IMC as is the norm, automatically makes that person a much safer pilot and fully qualified instructor, yes?

This continuing ridiculous attitude about who is safe to teach won't die the slow and painful death it deserves.

[trey kule]

I am a bit surprised Rookie that you quoted me out of context. Perhaps I wasn't clear.

I included that he was a highly experienced instrument pilot. That being said, under normal circumstances what someone doing a type training flight would typically be more interested in going through procedures on the plane.
What I found odd was the trainee was not in the left seat , though I understand they were an instructor so maybe they did not see being checked out in the right seat as unusual.
Or , as digits mentioned, it was just to check off the boxes for insurance.

As to me sharing knowledge about icing., for basic knowledge TC puts out a couple of videos which many small companies have incorporated as part of their training. I am not certain, but I think private pilots would be able to access them as well.

The issue I saw in my career was that pilots could take all the training available and they still did not recognize the risk, or understand that flight characteristics only deteriorate so far and then the aircraft simply departs from flight. That point cannot be recognized, ergo , any ice is bad.

There are some good TSB reports. One in particular regarding a king air Medivac that continued in icing condition until it fell. Everyone survived so data was available. But TSB never directly asks the question “ What were you thinking”

Years ago on Avcanada there was a discussion with a young pilot intentionally flying through icing conditions to “ experience it”. . His rationale was that he had a way out if it got to bad.
A typical case of not understanding exactly where it becomes to bad. And the consequences are immediate and lethal.

As to this particular accident. Who knows? It is the typical speculation based on a sometime flimsy rationale that it is all about learning.

[photofly]

If the only experienced non-instructor instrument pilot (who was also PIC) had been in the right seat, that would have been much more suspect, given the flight was conducted in actual IMC.

It does seem strange to conduct the initial familiarization flight in a new type in IMC.

[rookiepilot]

The systemic issue here, is FI’s are allowed to teach IFR to private pilots (like me, for example) who will fly in IMC in the future, their instructor having never seen the inside of a cloud in their life.

I have a problem with that, and when I’ve raised it here, it gets…laughed off as unimportant.

“Shut up Rookie. The class 4 with 200 hours knows more than you ever will”.

This attitude sucks.

I recall excuses like “insurance doesn’t like it” or “the flight school won’t allow it”.

I don’t do excuses. Make it happen, mandate it, TC. Are you listening?

Or we will see more of these types of terrible accidents, every one of them fatal.

[photofly]

The systemic issue here, is FI’s are allowed to teach IFR to private pilots (like me, for example) who will fly in IMC in the future, their instructor having never seen the inside of a cloud in their life.

That doesn’t sound like an issue at play here. Both pilots were instrument rated, and there was no instrument instruction being given.

[rookiepilot]

The systemic issue here, is FI’s are allowed to teach IFR to private pilots (like me, for example) who will fly in IMC in the future, their instructor having never seen the inside of a cloud in their life.

That doesn’t sound like an issue at play here. Both pilots were instrument rated, and there was no instrument instruction being given.

Did the decision making go back to their training in the first place?

There is a system in place where instrument instructors don’t ever have to personally think about weather — specifically icing — while instructing, because they aren’t allowed to fly inside of clouds — period.

Now tell me that doesn’t lend itself to less than optimum awareness and transmission of the risks of icing (or embedded CB’s for that matter)

Of course cause I talk about finance too, the trolls think I must not be a pilot and able to articulate this stuff. Surprise! I am a pilot who has experienced these things, and they are sneaky….

[photofly]

I understand (actually I don’t understand) the visceral hatred for flight instructors and the need for every accident to be directly attributable (and attributed by you) to the malfeasance of one of them, but with nearly 3000 hours of flight time between them, one hopes the two pilots on board had enough opportunity for independent learning and experience since they finished their training that any residual experiential or theoretical holes in their knowledge were really their own responsibilities.

[rookiepilot]

I understand (actually I don’t understand) the visceral hatred for flight instructors and the need for every accident to be directly attributable (and attributed by you) to the malfeasance of one of them, but with nearly 3000 hours of flight time between them, one hopes the two pilots on board had enough opportunity for independent learning and experience since they finished their training that any residual experiential or theoretical holes in their knowledge were really their own responsibilities.

Then why the heck did they take off into IMC with zero degrees on the ground, and what was it, mist and drizzle?

You’re making my comments personal against instructors. Ridiculous.

There is zero room for that on an accident forum and I have little patience for it.

Any pilots doing their IFR here, ESPECIALLY for private reasons — lesson is: demand time in actual IMC during your training. (I did).

If your instructor won’t do it, fire them / change schools. Its your life.

[photofly]

I understand (actually I don’t understand) the visceral hatred for flight instructors and the need for every accident to be directly attributable (and attributed by you) to the malfeasance of one of them, but with nearly 3000 hours of flight time between them, one hopes the two pilots on board had enough opportunity for independent learning and experience since they finished their training that any residual experiential or theoretical holes in their knowledge were really their own responsibilities.

Then why the heck did they take off into IMC with zero degrees on the ground, and what was it, mist and drizzle?

I didn’t say it was good decision-making. I just said you can’t lay it at the door of a hypothetical flight instructor about whose instruction or own experience you have no evidence.

Learning doesn’t stop when the instructor gets out of the plane.