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It was my first 4000hrs flying light twins, the last 5000 have been in much more advanced equipment. Point being, there is nothing unsafe about flying a light twin in "ugly weather" I've done it a lot, you're correct I'd try to avoid it when I could (I still try and avoid it in my jet) but sometimes you're just stuck in it (multiple North Atlantic crossings in a Navajo, lots in the Rockies, Andes and Alps) they handle it just fine if flown within their limits.sportingrifle wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:05 pm I am guessing you have spent the last 4000 hours flying light twins away from icing conditions and with large margins between the single engine service ceiling and the MEA's. I spent 9 years flying turbine twins in the mountains of British Columbia and there were days that even then it was getting ragged. My impending ability to soon collect a pension motivates me to build bigger margins into my operations than when I was younger.
Not to mention:
Stating the obvious. They could add this statement to 99% of my flights if something happened. It's 2022. All weather info is online, and the few times I did need them, they all told me they only had access to the information we have online. So what's the point of calling for a weather briefingThe investigation was unable to determine with certainty what weather information the pilots consulted before the occurrence flight; however, the pilots had not contacted a NAV CANADA flight information centre for a weather briefing before departure. The Canadian Aviation RegulationsFootnote6 require that the pilot-in-command be familiar with the available weather information appropriate for the intended flight.
According to the flightaware log, the groundspeed dropped to 79kt just above minimums, and then reduced to 73kt.karmutzen wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:23 am Once again I find myself questioning a TSB report -seems to say that they flew in icing conditions, iced up, and fell out of the sky. Doesn't jive. Stall speed on a 231 is 57 knots, it was flying more than double that at 114, lots of margin.
The report doesn't say what approach was being flown, so any reference to "vertical path" is conjecture. With good radar they'd also have ROD which isn't referenced at all.
Sloppy work by the TSB. They're on the hobby horse of icing and don't want facts to get in the way.
Even a small amount of airframe ice can really increase the stall speed, perhaps coupled with some G built up in maneuvering. The transition from streamlined air to stalled air over the wing can change much more abruptly with ice on the wing. Avoid ice, and if you have some, leave huge speed margins and minimize maneuvering.Stall speed on a 231 is 57 knots, it was flying more than double that at 114, lots of margin
Have you tested iced profiles in any of your planes? What kind of stall speed increases have you witnessed?PilotDAR wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 2:19 pmEven a small amount of airframe ice can really increase the stall speed, perhaps coupled with some G built up in maneuvering. The transition from streamlined air to stalled air over the wing can change much more abruptly with ice on the wing. Avoid ice, and if you have some, leave huge speed margins and minimize maneuvering.Stall speed on a 231 is 57 knots, it was flying more than double that at 114, lots of margin
Enough times we have read report description of previous approach accidents happening, and even on fair weather days. So whether or not this case constituted the “180” for the icing, and yes it states the ice WAS discussed, so the PIC knew it; the kind of ‘increased speed vigilance’ mentioned above is questionable with the 73kt/1250m” hit (which is descending there soon after 79kt (60mhigher) thru approx 200ft AGL … over roughly 1200m elev).
There are systems in place that allow them to determine whether or not the PIC called FSS for a briefing. There is nothing in place to let them determine that they went to WeatherUnderground, Google Weather, Windy, or any number of other options. So they can report that the recommended weather briefing wasn't obtained. They do not speculate so can't say that the pilot "may have" used other methods.
They just seem to look into this when a pilot takes off into obviously inappropriate conditions, where the forecast indicated that the weather wasn't suitable for the intended flight, to try and figure out why the pilot did what they did. In some cases they find that the forecaster warned the pilot, but they took off anyway just to have a look-see.AirFrame wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 8:59 amThere are systems in place that allow them to determine whether or not the PIC called FSS for a briefing. There is nothing in place to let them determine that they went to WeatherUnderground, Google Weather, Windy, or any number of other options. So they can report that the recommended weather briefing wasn't obtained. They do not speculate so can't say that the pilot "may have" used other methods.
I understand that, but it still doesn't mean anything. I'd say the majority of pilots flying do not call FSS yet they do get the exact same weather information from other sources, such as flightplanning.navcanada.ca . Yet people (press) reading it interpret it as 'they pilot didn't get any weather briefing!', which is not necessarily correct.AirFrame wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 8:59 amThere are systems in place that allow them to determine whether or not the PIC called FSS for a briefing. There is nothing in place to let them determine that they went to WeatherUnderground, Google Weather, Windy, or any number of other options. So they can report that the recommended weather briefing wasn't obtained. They do not speculate so can't say that the pilot "may have" used other methods.
They had been flying for at least 45 minutes before the crash, probably in icing conditions, so I doubt this ice was on the tail before takeoff. Also, it was +1 on the ground.Fishizl wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:22 am might have taken off with ice already on as well http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... ure-04.jpg