DEC Posting

[JHR]

A few koolaid drinkers here. Those wages are brutal especially for the Embraer. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[genetic jack hammer]

A few koolaid drinkers here. Those wages are brutal especially for the Embraer. Sorry to burst your bubble.

...and yet again, they'll be no shortage of applicants, with the carrot stick being the chance of an interview at mainline.

[rudder]

A few koolaid drinkers here. Those wages are brutal especially for the Embraer. Sorry to burst your bubble.

...and yet again, they'll be no shortage of applicants, with the carrot stick being the chance of an interview at mainline.

Bingo.

There are 2 Jazz’s. One with tenured pilots making good money (reasonable pay rates) and another comprised of the pilots in year 1-5 who’s goal is the virtually assured path to AC (notwithstanding AC’s previous creation of a new interview result which was neither a job offer nor a rejection. It said ‘reapply in 6 months’). And there are some pilots stuck between these two groups.

Ultimately the market will dictate compensation. There is a drawer full of applications at Jazz. But they aren’t all 2500+ hour ATPL. Compensation will dictate applicant qualification. Even Porter has recognized that, and they are not unionized. But Porter desperately wants the E2 program to succeed.

The airlines in Canada need to accept that they will have to compete for pilot labour resources, or accept the inability to maintain or increase operations. Only carrier that might be exempt from this paradigm is AC.

[qwe221sd]

A few koolaid drinkers here. Those wages are brutal especially for the Embraer. Sorry to burst your bubble.

...and yet again, they'll be no shortage of applicants, with the carrot stick being the chance of an interview at mainline.

Bingo.

There are 2 Jazz’s. One with tenured pilots making good money (reasonable pay rates) and another comprised of the pilots in year 1-5 who’s goal is the virtually assured path to AC (notwithstanding AC’s previous creation of a new interview result which was neither a job offer nor a rejection. It said ‘reapply in 6 months’). And there are some pilots stuck between these two groups.

Ultimately the market will dictate compensation. There is a drawer full of applications at Jazz. But they aren’t all 2500+ hour ATPL. Compensation will dictate applicant qualification. Even Porter has recognized that, and they are not unionized. But Porter desperately wants the E2 program to succeed.

The airlines in Canada need to accept that they will have to compete for pilot labour resources, or accept the inability to maintain or increase operations. Only carrier that might be exempt from this paradigm is AC.

I don't think so. Airlines always can lower their requirement , they can hire CPL 250 hours directly.And It's happening.
Do you think there's a shortage of cpl fresh guys?

[RegionalPilot]

...and yet again, they'll be no shortage of applicants, with the carrot stick being the chance of an interview at mainline.

Bingo.

There are 2 Jazz’s. One with tenured pilots making good money (reasonable pay rates) and another comprised of the pilots in year 1-5 who’s goal is the virtually assured path to AC (notwithstanding AC’s previous creation of a new interview result which was neither a job offer nor a rejection. It said ‘reapply in 6 months’). And there are some pilots stuck between these two groups.

Ultimately the market will dictate compensation. There is a drawer full of applications at Jazz. But they aren’t all 2500+ hour ATPL. Compensation will dictate applicant qualification. Even Porter has recognized that, and they are not unionized. But Porter desperately wants the E2 program to succeed.

The airlines in Canada need to accept that they will have to compete for pilot labour resources, or accept the inability to maintain or increase operations. Only carrier that might be exempt from this paradigm is AC.

I don't think so. Airlines always can lower their requirement , they can hire CPL 250 hours directly.And It's happening.
Do you think there's a shortage of cpl fresh guys?

There’s a shortage of captains. Not FOs.

[tbaylx]

...and yet again, they'll be no shortage of applicants, with the carrot stick being the chance of an interview at mainline.

Bingo.

There are 2 Jazz’s. One with tenured pilots making good money (reasonable pay rates) and another comprised of the pilots in year 1-5 who’s goal is the virtually assured path to AC (notwithstanding AC’s previous creation of a new interview result which was neither a job offer nor a rejection. It said ‘reapply in 6 months’). And there are some pilots stuck between these two groups.

Ultimately the market will dictate compensation. There is a drawer full of applications at Jazz. But they aren’t all 2500+ hour ATPL. Compensation will dictate applicant qualification. Even Porter has recognized that, and they are not unionized. But Porter desperately wants the E2 program to succeed.

The airlines in Canada need to accept that they will have to compete for pilot labour resources, or accept the inability to maintain or increase operations. Only carrier that might be exempt from this paradigm is AC.

I don't think so. Airlines always can lower their requirement , they can hire CPL 250 hours directly.And It's happening.
Do you think there's a shortage of cpl fresh guys?

Airlines that are well established with 5+ years to upgrade can hire 250-hour cadets. There is not a shortage of that experience level. Yet.
Rapid growth requires experience for Captains. There is definitely an acute shortage of 5000hour + jet pilots.

[qwe221sd]

Bingo.

There are 2 Jazz’s. One with tenured pilots making good money (reasonable pay rates) and another comprised of the pilots in year 1-5 who’s goal is the virtually assured path to AC (notwithstanding AC’s previous creation of a new interview result which was neither a job offer nor a rejection. It said ‘reapply in 6 months’). And there are some pilots stuck between these two groups.

Ultimately the market will dictate compensation. There is a drawer full of applications at Jazz. But they aren’t all 2500+ hour ATPL. Compensation will dictate applicant qualification. Even Porter has recognized that, and they are not unionized. But Porter desperately wants the E2 program to succeed.

The airlines in Canada need to accept that they will have to compete for pilot labour resources, or accept the inability to maintain or increase operations. Only carrier that might be exempt from this paradigm is AC.

I don't think so. Airlines always can lower their requirement , they can hire CPL 250 hours directly.And It's happening.
Do you think there's a shortage of cpl fresh guys?

Airlines that are well established with 5+ years to upgrade can hire 250-hour cadets. There is not a shortage of that experience level. Yet.
Rapid growth requires experience for Captains. There is definitely an acute shortage of 5000hour + jet pilots.

Totally agree. Btw , why some airlines of the world only require 3000-4000tt for 737 or a320 captain , but we need 5000 hours? for example, european ulcc like Wizz Ryan Eurowings Easyjet .

[tbaylx]

I don't think so. Airlines always can lower their requirement , they can hire CPL 250 hours directly.And It's happening.
Do you think there's a shortage of cpl fresh guys?

Airlines that are well established with 5+ years to upgrade can hire 250-hour cadets. There is not a shortage of that experience level. Yet.
Rapid growth requires experience for Captains. There is definitely an acute shortage of 5000hour + jet pilots.

Totally agree. Btw , why some airlines of the world only require 3000-4000tt for 737 or a320 captain , but we need 5000 hours? for example, european ulcc like Wizz Ryan Eurowings Easyjet .

Companies's are free to set their own experience requirements. The minimum requirements in Canada are an ATPL and 1500 hours. I have yet to meet a pilot that would be ready to command a 737 with 1500 hours TT.

In Europe many pilots are cadets and have been flying the aircraft type for their whole career. After 3000-4000 hours on type, and with a developed command upgrade program using Evidence Based Training and lofts a pilot is ready for command at 3000TT.

In Canada most pilots have 2500 hrs + on turboprops or small 703 aircraft prior to joining the airline. Additionally, most 705 operators in Canada do not have a command upgrade program anywhere near the level of an EASA carrier, so higher experience requirements are the norm to be successful.

With 6 months at a company to develop and around 500 hrs on type and 4000 TT with a good command upgrade program, many Candian pilots are capable of upgrading to a 737 command successfully and safely.

[Inthrustwetrust]

The moment other airlines start poaching atpl pilots with higher wages we will see increased wages at Jazz. Not sure if we will get there. Time will tell.

[rudder]

The moment other airlines start poaching atpl pilots with higher wages we will see increased wages at Jazz. Not sure if we will get there. Time will tell.

The rumoured(?) DEC program is proof that if the low experience/no experience demographic of your new-hire cadre is too high during times of high attrition, then you will run out of upgradeable pilots.

Jazz is forecasting hitting that wall soon.

[Transition9er2]

The moment other airlines start poaching atpl pilots with higher wages we will see increased wages at Jazz. Not sure if we will get there. Time will tell.

This was already happening before covid. I talked to many RJ guys saying they were being approached while in uniform down in some US terminals. All stories were the same, they got approached by guys in a suit with a business card representing a regional airline in that city. They were saying the regionals were desperately looking for jet experience, they were offering aircraft and base selection of their choice and the company would take care of all licensing conversions and visa requirements plus offering a significant hiring bonus along with retention bonus with flow opportunities to a major in the future.

I must’ve talked to 6-10 different guys pre covid in the crew rooms about this.

Only a matter of time before it kicks off again.

[RegionalPilot]

Anyone knows what will happen with the first few ground school regarding DEC? Since there was no bid, I don’t believe the company can offer DEC to any of those candidates. I’m assuming most in those classes will qualify.

[the-minister31]

Anyone knows what will happen with the first few ground school regarding DEC? Since there was no bid, I don’t believe the company can offer DEC to any of those candidates. I’m assuming most in those classes will qualify.

I believe they are al l offered FO for now. They need to go through all theirs guys with AAs before offering DEC, including the ones getting hired this year.

I would be surprised if they hire DEC before the end of the summer. But as someone else pointed out, if you want a CA spot, get your seniority number now and play the waiting game. You'll be in front of any DEC they hire down the road.

[KenoraPilot]

Anyone knows what will happen with the first few ground school regarding DEC? Since there was no bid, I don’t believe the company can offer DEC to any of those candidates. I’m assuming most in those classes will qualify.

There cannot be DEC positions offered until the company runs and equipment bid and shows the CA vacancies and the inability (or unwillingness of the pilots) to fill them.

[redbusdriver]

Anyone knows what will happen with the first few ground school regarding DEC? Since there was no bid, I don’t believe the company can offer DEC to any of those candidates. I’m assuming most in those classes will qualify.

There cannot be DEC positions offered until the company runs and equipment bid and shows the CA vacancies and the inability (or unwillingness of the pilots) to fill them.

so basically they are dangling a carrot or bait and switch, to entice more experienced pilots to join

[a2btrail]

Anyone knows what will happen with the first few ground school regarding DEC? Since there was no bid, I don’t believe the company can offer DEC to any of those candidates. I’m assuming most in those classes will qualify.

There cannot be DEC positions offered until the company runs and equipment bid and shows the CA vacancies and the inability (or unwillingness of the pilots) to fill them.

Correct.

[rudder]

Anyone knows what will happen with the first few ground school regarding DEC? Since there was no bid, I don’t believe the company can offer DEC to any of those candidates. I’m assuming most in those classes will qualify.

There cannot be DEC positions offered until the company runs and equipment bid and shows the CA vacancies and the inability (or unwillingness of the pilots) to fill them.

And that snapshot is taken at the exact time of awarding (eligibility limited to active pilots with a seniority number), not weeks or months in advance. At least according to the language in the current CBA.

DEC is no different than a new-hire FO. They are not told at the interview what their Base and Equipment will be (as Jazz is a multi-base multi equipment type airline). No ‘reservations’ are made at the interview.

Having said that, after the seniority draw is complete (happens on company indoc course), the new-hire pilots bid for vacancies that are available (company controls which available vacancies are available to new-hire course). That could potentially give the company some control in respect of DEC availability (i.e. put DEC on a course with other pilots that are not qualified for CA positions and post unbid CA vacancies). However, there are no provisions for training out of seniority. No DEC could be trained prior to any more senior pilot with an award in that Position.

Sound complicated? It isn’t. Just follow the rules.

[CPT.HarshColdReality]

Huh but this is ongoing now.... Been on bypass pay since November 2021... Loads of junior guys are upgrading ahead of me with my course date in September

[the-minister31]

Huh but this is ongoing now.... Been on bypass pay since November 2021... Loads of junior guys are upgrading ahead of me with my course date in September

Which equipment?

[CPT.HarshColdReality]

from Q to RJ