Flow to AC matrix

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RegionalPilot
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Flow to AC matrix

Post by RegionalPilot »

I’ve been hearing multiple versions of the current state of the flow agreement between Jazz and AC.

1- Minimum of 60% of new hires at AC need to come from Jazz. The 60% is audited once a year to insure compliance. No less then 90% of interviews conducted need to be successful (rejection rate of maximum 10%).

2- With the integration of GGN and SKY, it is no longer 60% but 90% of new hires from Jazz. Other conditions stays the same.

Who is right? Who is wrong?

Has a MOU been distributed to clarify the situation?
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Nick678
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by Nick678 »

It still remains at 60% unless they hire fewer than 100 pilots then it goes to 70%.

Of the jazz applicants that apply they have to hire 90% of them.

Jazz is not the fastest way to AC they would rather Hire OTS. They don’t want to deplete their regional. I know a swoop pilot with 2500 hours in the interview process
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Ash Ketchum
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by Ash Ketchum »

Probably best to leave Jazz and go to WestJet/Flair if you want to end up at AC. Lots of more junior OTS guys from Encore/Flair getting in.
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rudder
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by rudder »

Ash Ketchum wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:13 am Probably best to leave Jazz and go to WestJet/Flair if you want to end up at AC. Lots of more junior OTS guys from Encore/Flair getting in.
At 60%, it will all balance out. Currently, all you are hearing/seeing is the early OTS PIT entrants who are populating the May/June/July/August (?) PIT courses. Between now and year end approximately 150 more Jazz pilots will be on those PIT courses.

It is far from a perfect system. But the reality is that almost all Jazz current qualified AC applicants will be at AC by the end of next year. How many in the OTS applicant pool can say the same?
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newlygrounded
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by newlygrounded »

RegionalPilot wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:26 pm I’ve been hearing multiple versions of the current state of the flow agreement between Jazz and AC.

1- Minimum of 60% of new hires at AC need to come from Jazz. The 60% is audited once a year to insure compliance. No less then 90% of interviews conducted need to be successful (rejection rate of maximum 10%).

2- With the integration of GGN and SKY, it is no longer 60% but 90% of new hires from Jazz. Other conditions stays the same.

Who is right? Who is wrong?

Has a MOU been distributed to clarify the situation?
I remember reading a while ago if they don't meet those numbers its only a small fine roughly $1500 per person
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airway
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by airway »

newlygrounded wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:34 pm I remember reading a while ago if they don't meet those numbers its only a small fine roughly $1500 per person

Wrong
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KenoraPilot
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by KenoraPilot »

newlygrounded wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:34 pm
RegionalPilot wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:26 pm I’ve been hearing multiple versions of the current state of the flow agreement between Jazz and AC.

1- Minimum of 60% of new hires at AC need to come from Jazz. The 60% is audited once a year to insure compliance. No less then 90% of interviews conducted need to be successful (rejection rate of maximum 10%).

2- With the integration of GGN and SKY, it is no longer 60% but 90% of new hires from Jazz. Other conditions stays the same.

Who is right? Who is wrong?

Has a MOU been distributed to clarify the situation?
I remember reading a while ago if they don't meet those numbers its only a small fine roughly $1500 per person
The Jazz MEC monitors the numbers annually flowing over. The 60% is annually so AC can hire all 60% from Jazz in the last 2-3 months of the calendar year if they want. If AC misses the mark, the JAZMEC will have AC hire the missed # in the following year.
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RegionalPilot
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by RegionalPilot »

Nick678 wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:33 pm It still remains at 60% unless they hire fewer than 100 pilots then it goes to 70%.

Of the jazz applicants that apply they have to hire 90% of them.

Jazz is not the fastest way to AC they would rather Hire OTS. They don’t want to deplete their regional. I know a swoop pilot with 2500 hours in the interview process
So why is it down to 60% for the total Express flying?

Shouldn’t we have got from the GGN and SKY integration their portion of the hiring pool as well? It would make sense since we’re taking all their flying and pilot. Nothing is different other then you’re dealing with 1 group instead of 3.
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C-GGGQ
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by C-GGGQ »

As far as I know ggn and sky never had a firm commitment in numbers from AC. They certainly took few to none of those pilots in the last few years. Only jazz got that firm commitment with their 17 year deal that started the death of ggn and sky
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the-minister31
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by the-minister31 »

C-GGGQ wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:07 pm As far as I know ggn and sky never had a firm commitment in numbers from AC. They certainly took few to none of those pilots in the last few years. Only jazz got that firm commitment with their 17 year deal that started the death of ggn and sky
Sky had an agreement very similar to Jazz. 10% instead of 60%, which made sense considering we were only 300 pilots or so.
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rudder
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by rudder »

GGN had a cadet program with AC. Also, during the transfer of GGN flying back to Jazz in 2019 many GGN CA were hired by AC resulting in only about 60% of the former GGN pilots ultimately transferring to Jazz.

As mentioned, SKV had a 10% arrangement with AC.

And while the big winner in the Express consolidation was AC, the reality is that Jazz implemented the hiring ratio of 60% when it had approximately 1300 line pilot positions (training and management pilots not included). That 1300 number has only changed nominally despite the Express consolidation as the overall Express fleet and flying volume (block hours) has decreased since the Express operation was divided between 3 carriers.
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co-joe
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by co-joe »

I'm kind of curious about something on this topic. People here are saying AC will need 700 to as much as 1000 pilots in the next year+. So by PTA 420 - 600 of them have to come from Jazz then? Can Jazz sustain that kind of loss without parking aeroplanes? I thought the number was 80% but I can't keep up with this stuff any more...
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rudder
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by rudder »

co-joe wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:05 am I'm kind of curious about something on this topic. People here are saying AC will need 700 to as much as 1000 pilots in the next year+. So by PTA 420 - 600 of them have to come from Jazz then? Can Jazz sustain that kind of loss without parking aeroplanes? I thought the number was 80% but I can't keep up with this stuff any more...
AC needs approx 300 in 2022. Up to another 500 in 2023. AC training dept cannot accommodate more than 500 PIT in any rolling 12 months. And summer training is always problematic from a resource point of view.

Approx 160-180 will leave Jazz for AC this year. At most 300 next year.

Jazz has hired and trained over 500 new-hires in 12 months before. Can probably do so again.
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co-joe
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by co-joe »

rudder wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:22 am ...
Jazz has hired and trained over 500 new-hires in 12 months before. Can probably do so again.
That's pretty impressive actually. How many can they upgrade, line indoc, and consolidate in a year will likely become the limiting factor then?
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fixnfly
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by fixnfly »

KenoraPilot wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:40 pm
newlygrounded wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:34 pm
RegionalPilot wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:26 pm I’ve been hearing multiple versions of the current state of the flow agreement between Jazz and AC.

1- Minimum of 60% of new hires at AC need to come from Jazz. The 60% is audited once a year to insure compliance. No less then 90% of interviews conducted need to be successful (rejection rate of maximum 10%).

2- With the integration of GGN and SKY, it is no longer 60% but 90% of new hires from Jazz. Other conditions stays the same.

Who is right? Who is wrong?

Has a MOU been distributed to clarify the situation?
I remember reading a while ago if they don't meet those numbers its only a small fine roughly $1500 per person
The Jazz MEC monitors the numbers annually flowing over. The 60% is annually so AC can hire all 60% from Jazz in the last 2-3 months of the calendar year if they want. If AC misses the mark, the JAZMEC will have AC hire the missed # in the following year.
What's stopping AC from not honoring that agreement? Is it a financial penalty? If they have the ability to say they'll just be pushing off the hiring from Jazz till the next year I could really see them doing that as Westjet did by dangling that promised flow carrot at Encore. It would make sense with that large of a vacancy and the lack of captain qualified applicants at Jazz, that AC says they simply can't afford to lose that many pilots at express and reduce the percentage hired.
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jpilot77
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by jpilot77 »

fixnfly wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:13 am
KenoraPilot wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:40 pm
newlygrounded wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:34 pm
I remember reading a while ago if they don't meet those numbers its only a small fine roughly $1500 per person
The Jazz MEC monitors the numbers annually flowing over. The 60% is annually so AC can hire all 60% from Jazz in the last 2-3 months of the calendar year if they want. If AC misses the mark, the JAZMEC will have AC hire the missed # in the following year.
What's stopping AC from not honoring that agreement? Is it a financial penalty? If they have the ability to say they'll just be pushing off the hiring from Jazz till the next year I could really see them doing that as Westjet did by dangling that promised flow carrot at Encore. It would make sense with that large of a vacancy and the lack of captain qualified applicants at Jazz, that AC says they simply can't afford to lose that many pilots at express and reduce the percentage hired.
I’d say if AC stops honouring the agreement the number of applicants to Jazz would drop off a cliff.
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Sharklasers
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by Sharklasers »

KenoraPilot wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:40 pm
newlygrounded wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:34 pm
RegionalPilot wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:26 pm I’ve been hearing multiple versions of the current state of the flow agreement between Jazz and AC.

1- Minimum of 60% of new hires at AC need to come from Jazz. The 60% is audited once a year to insure compliance. No less then 90% of interviews conducted need to be successful (rejection rate of maximum 10%).

2- With the integration of GGN and SKY, it is no longer 60% but 90% of new hires from Jazz. Other conditions stays the same.

Who is right? Who is wrong?

Has a MOU been distributed to clarify the situation?
I remember reading a while ago if they don't meet those numbers its only a small fine roughly $1500 per person
The Jazz MEC monitors the numbers annually flowing over. The 60% is annually so AC can hire all 60% from Jazz in the last 2-3 months of the calendar year if they want. If AC misses the mark, the JAZMEC will have AC hire the missed # in the following year.
That would be a tough pill to swallow if I were a Jazz pilot. A +1 year delay in getting hired right now could be a 300-500 number hit which is enormous and can pretty well dictated how the rest of your career shapes up.
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rudder
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Re: Flow to AC matrix

Post by rudder »

co-joe wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:26 am
rudder wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:22 am ...
Jazz has hired and trained over 500 new-hires in 12 months before. Can probably do so again.
That's pretty impressive actually. How many can they upgrade, line indoc, and consolidate in a year will likely become the limiting factor then?
2022 will be tight. Training capacity at 100% due internal training. Still, Jazz will still probably hire 200+.

2023 will be busier.
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