DEC

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Bede
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Re: DEC

Post by Bede »

rudder wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:06 am Have the WJ/Swoop (WJA MEC) representatives and SWG (Unifor) representatives started a dialogue?
The two MEC chairs sent out a joint memo a couple days ago.
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pacman007
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Re: DEC

Post by pacman007 »

If a merger happens with WestJet wouldn’t it be reasonable to think they will merge the lists? Wouldn’t that mean most of Sunwings current captains be FOs? Considering the upgrade at WestJet is a decade or more?
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RockSalty
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Re: DEC

Post by RockSalty »

pacman007 wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:13 pm If a merger happens with WestJet wouldn’t it be reasonable to think they will merge the lists? Wouldn’t that mean most of Sunwings current captains be FOs? Considering the upgrade at WestJet is a decade or more?
Seniority list merges can go all sorts of ways, the only thing that is for certain is there are going to be some people that will be incredibly pissed off by the end of it
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safetyfirst123
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Re: DEC

Post by safetyfirst123 »

pacman007 wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:13 pm If a merger happens with WestJet wouldn’t it be reasonable to think they will merge the lists? Wouldn’t that mean most of Sunwings current captains be FOs? Considering the upgrade at WestJet is a decade or more?
You're assuming that Westjet mainline is the only flying in the group. What's the upgrade time at Swoop? What will happen with Swoop, especially pay, with the new contract being negotiated? How much flying will Sunwing bring to the table? When you combine everything together, what will be the upgrade time within the Westjet Group, including Sunwing?

Of course, it's too early to answer any of the above, but it's a dynamic situation.
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co-joe
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Re: DEC

Post by co-joe »

ant_321 wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:52 am
co-joe wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:24 pm Out of curiosity, is Sunwing still leaning on this?
Sunwing Pilots Collective Agreement No. 3
24
6.5 Minimum Upgrade Qualifications
6.5.1 To qualify for initial upgrade training to Captain on type, a FCM should meet the following
minimums:
a) A current Airline Transport Pilot License, AND
b) 5,000 hours Total Flight Time, AND
c) 2,000 hours Total Flight Time on Jets over 100,000 lb., OR 1,000 hours PIC Flight Time
on Jets over 100,000 lb.
NOTE: For each year on type with the Company, a FCM may reduce his total flight time
requirements by five hundred hours. The total reduction will not exceed one thousand
hours
It's an archaic rule, but if it's still in the CBA it gives the company an out to hire whomever they want. F8 had the same rule since our Unifor CBA was basically a carbon copy of theirs, but the company decided that with a better training program they could lower the requirements significantly.
Yes it’s still in place. If you spend a couple years as an FO you can upgrade with 4000TT. That seems pretty reasonable to me. Most people aren’t even close to being ready to be a captain with that little time.
I'm sorry, but did you just say, that with 4000 total time, and 2000 hours on type, people aren't ready to upgrade?
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ant_321
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Re: DEC

Post by ant_321 »

co-joe wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:25 pm
ant_321 wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:52 am
co-joe wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:24 pm Out of curiosity, is Sunwing still leaning on this?



It's an archaic rule, but if it's still in the CBA it gives the company an out to hire whomever they want. F8 had the same rule since our Unifor CBA was basically a carbon copy of theirs, but the company decided that with a better training program they could lower the requirements significantly.
Yes it’s still in place. If you spend a couple years as an FO you can upgrade with 4000TT. That seems pretty reasonable to me. Most people aren’t even close to being ready to be a captain with that little time.
I'm sorry, but did you just say, that with 4000 total time, and 2000 hours on type, people aren't ready to upgrade?
For sure. Saying “most” may have been a little strong worded, but a significant amount of people are not ready to be a captain on a 737 with 4000hrs. Either way, most people being awarded upgrades have significantly more time than the min.
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Aspiredtofly
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Re: DEC

Post by Aspiredtofly »

Anyone who can post payscale for sunwings updated
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daedalusx
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Re: DEC

Post by daedalusx »

Aspiredtofly wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:01 pm Anyone who can post payscale for sunwings updated
It’s about three fiddy.

Just search for the lowest paid 737 job in North America ... that’s pretty much what it is... tied with Swoop.
CBA 3 is available online and it should be pretty close to CBA 4 except I believe MMG was higher on CBA 3. There used to be decent compensation from the European and domestic deployments but in the current economical climate, I’m no so sure I’d be joining Sunwing expecting a summer deployment ... especially in the context of a possible WJ merge. Either way, there’s much better paying jobs right now such as Flair, CJ and probably even Porter. At least the lifestyle is better than Swoop.

That was posted on another thread and is pretty accurate although I think Flair’s should be increasing soon with the next round of negos.

Porter 195-E2 @ 80 MMG
122K to 190K for CA (12 Year Scale)
61K to 104K for FO (10 Year Scale)

Air Transat A321 @ 80 MMG
148K to 208K CA
61K to 116K FO

Sunwing 737-800 @ 75 MMG
113K to 183K
55K to 93K

Flair 737-800 @ 80 MMG
115K to 170K
67K to 95K

Swoop 737-800 @ 75 MMG
100K to 127K (3 Year Scale)
54K to 74K (3 Year Scale)
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
Tbayer2021
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Re: DEC

Post by Tbayer2021 »

daedalusx wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:06 pm
Aspiredtofly wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:01 pm Anyone who can post payscale for sunwings updated
It’s about three fiddy.

Just search for the lowest paid 737 job in North America ... that’s pretty much what it is... tied with Swoop.
CBA 3 is available online and it should be pretty close to CBA 4 except I believe MMG was higher on CBA 3. There used to be decent compensation from the European and domestic deployments but in the current economical climate, I’m no so sure I’d be joining Sunwing expecting a summer deployment ... especially in the context of a possible WJ merge. Either way, there’s much better paying jobs right now such as Flair, CJ and probably even Porter. At least the lifestyle is better than Swoop.

That was posted on another thread and is pretty accurate although I think Flair’s should be increasing soon with the next round of negos.

Porter 195-E2 @ 80 MMG
122K to 190K for CA (12 Year Scale)
61K to 104K for FO (10 Year Scale)

Air Transat A321 @ 80 MMG
148K to 208K CA
61K to 116K FO

Sunwing 737-800 @ 75 MMG
113K to 183K
55K to 93K

Flair 737-800 @ 80 MMG
115K to 170K
67K to 95K

Swoop 737-800 @ 75 MMG
100K to 127K (3 Year Scale)
54K to 74K (3 Year Scale)
The Transat payscale is off for both the CPT and FOs.

62.6K to 150.5K for FO
184.2K to 244.4K for CPT

The contract extension is up in 2025 and that year the pay is as follows

66.1K to 158.9K for FO
194.5K to 258.0K for CPT

A321 and A330 pilots get paid the same at TS.
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Aspiredtofly
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Re: DEC

Post by Aspiredtofly »

Tbayer2021 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:39 pm
daedalusx wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:06 pm
Aspiredtofly wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:01 pm Anyone who can post payscale for sunwings updated
It’s about three fiddy.

Just search for the lowest paid 737 job in North America ... that’s pretty much what it is... tied with Swoop.
CBA 3 is available online and it should be pretty close to CBA 4 except I believe MMG was higher on CBA 3. There used to be decent compensation from the European and domestic deployments but in the current economical climate, I’m no so sure I’d be joining Sunwing expecting a summer deployment ... especially in the context of a possible WJ merge. Either way, there’s much better paying jobs right now such as Flair, CJ and probably even Porter. At least the lifestyle is better than Swoop.

That was posted on another thread and is pretty accurate although I think Flair’s should be increasing soon with the next round of negos.

Porter 195-E2 @ 80 MMG
122K to 190K for CA (12 Year Scale)
61K to 104K for FO (10 Year Scale)

Air Transat A321 @ 80 MMG
148K to 208K CA
61K to 116K FO

Sunwing 737-800 @ 75 MMG
113K to 183K
55K to 93K

Flair 737-800 @ 80 MMG
115K to 170K
67K to 95K

Swoop 737-800 @ 75 MMG
100K to 127K (3 Year Scale)
54K to 74K (3 Year Scale)
The Transat payscale is off for both the CPT and FOs.

62.6K to 150.5K for FO
184.2K to 244.4K for CPT

The contract extension is up in 2025 and that year the pay is as follows

66.1K to 158.9K for FO
194.5K to 258.0K for CPT

A321 and A330 pilots get paid the same at TS.
Yeah narrow body pay is eliminated. So everyone's on widebody pay now
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frog
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Re: DEC

Post by frog »

Sunwing pay is terrible.
However quality of life is great.
The question is how all this is going to change with the merger.
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Re: DEC

Post by fruz »

frog wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 5:55 am Sunwing pay is terrible.
However quality of life is great.
The question is how all this is going to change with the merger.
The pay is low. Morale is low. Management is proceeding ahead with training foreigners to work here with higher pay. Future deployments are uncertain and relationship with management is the most toxic it's every been. There's more reasons to leave Sunwing than to join.
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Re: DEC

Post by Tbayer2021 »

fruz wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:47 am
frog wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 5:55 am Sunwing pay is terrible.
However quality of life is great.
The question is how all this is going to change with the merger.
The pay is low. Morale is low. Management is proceeding ahead with training foreigners to work here with higher pay. Future deployments are uncertain and relationship with management is the most toxic it's every been. There's more reasons to leave Sunwing than to join.
Yeah but the lifestyle is so good, you can actually get a second job to make ends meet.
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Re: DEC

Post by daedalusx »

Tbayer2021 wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:52 am
fruz wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:47 am
frog wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 5:55 am Sunwing pay is terrible.
However quality of life is great.
The question is how all this is going to change with the merger.
The pay is low. Morale is low. Management is proceeding ahead with training foreigners to work here with higher pay. Future deployments are uncertain and relationship with management is the most toxic it's every been. There's more reasons to leave Sunwing than to join.
Yeah but the lifestyle is so good, you can actually get a second job to make ends meet.
I don’t think a 737 driver with > 5000 hours should have to work at skip the dishes to make ends meet, but that’s just me. Maybe I’m lazy but I’d rather spend my time away from flying with my family.
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
MaxAuto
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Re: DEC

Post by MaxAuto »

ant_321 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:38 pm
co-joe wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:25 pm
ant_321 wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:52 am

Yes it’s still in place. If you spend a couple years as an FO you can upgrade with 4000TT. That seems pretty reasonable to me. Most people aren’t even close to being ready to be a captain with that little time.
I'm sorry, but did you just say, that with 4000 total time, and 2000 hours on type, people aren't ready to upgrade?
For sure. Saying “most” may have been a little strong worded, but a significant amount of people are not ready to be a captain on a 737 with 4000hrs. Either way, most people being awarded upgrades have significantly more time than the min.
It also depends on the type of operations and area of operations the 737-800 is utilized in. Flying mostly domestic is different than flying long 5 to 7hr flights to multiple countries over water and over mountainous terrain in the middle of the night in a charter type operation. Thens there's European operations with all there weird double DME arcs and slam dunk approaches into airports in the Greek islands.
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Last edited by MaxAuto on Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DEC

Post by Tbayer2021 »

daedalusx wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:01 am
Tbayer2021 wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:52 am
fruz wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:47 am The pay is low. Morale is low. Management is proceeding ahead with training foreigners to work here with higher pay. Future deployments are uncertain and relationship with management is the most toxic it's every been. There's more reasons to leave Sunwing than to join.
Yeah but the lifestyle is so good, you can actually get a second job to make ends meet.
I don’t think a 737 driver with > 5000 hours should have to work at skip the dishes to make ends meet, but that’s just me. Maybe I’m lazy but I’d rather spend my time away from flying with my family.
That was sarcasm, deadalusx. I figured a joke about it would fit well since they keep bringing up lifestyle.
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Re: DEC

Post by daedalusx »

Tbayer2021 wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:38 am
daedalusx wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:01 am
Tbayer2021 wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:52 am

Yeah but the lifestyle is so good, you can actually get a second job to make ends meet.
I don’t think a 737 driver with > 5000 hours should have to work at skip the dishes to make ends meet, but that’s just me. Maybe I’m lazy but I’d rather spend my time away from flying with my family.
That was sarcasm, deadalusx. I figured a joke about it would fit well since they keep bringing up lifestyle.
:smt040 :smt040 :smt040

I completely missed it but only because there’s been so many similar posts on other threads normalizing getting a part time job on the side.
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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Re: DEC

Post by fruz »

Well,

This company once used to be a good lifestyle carrier balancing work and free time. But thats done now as there are way too many other problems with this company to tout lifestyle as a reason to choose Sunwing. I got the sarcasm, but believe it or not there are pilots working here with second jobs in the service industry to make ends meet. Very sad.
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Re: DEC

Post by Kingair200 »

is it possible or any past experince of having someone with 5000+ and few thousand right seat 705 jet experience to get hired as DEC?
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rudder
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Re: DEC

Post by rudder »

Kingair200 wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:26 am is it possible or any past experince of having someone with 5000+ and few thousand right seat 705 jet experience to get hired as DEC?
As I understand it, SWG has a ‘matrix’ for DEC. Normally PIC 705 >100,000lbs required. Can earn credit in-house in right seat towards +100,000lbs time. I could see a 705 jet CA (75000lbs+) potentially getting a look. But it would depend on the quality of the applicant pool.
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