Sky Diving At or Near Airports

[OttawaValleyFlyer]

At an uncontrolled airport, when a PIC of a sky diving operation makes a radio call " jumpers away, do not fly above or over the field"

There is no start or end time announced with the call, one would assume the start time is immediately, but how would anyone know when they can resume in bound.

Are parachute operations allowed to technically declare control of of the air space above and around a public aerodrome?

[digits_]

At an uncontrolled airport, when a PIC of a sky diving operation makes a radio call " jumpers away, do not fly above or over the field"

There is no start or end time announced with the call, one would assume the start time is immediately, but how would anyone know when they can resume in bound.

Are parachute operations allowed to technically declare control of of the air space above and around a public aerodrome?

Skydivers have right of way, but I don't know of any regulation that would give a jump plane or parachute operation the right to control the airspace.
If it's a private field, you could rightfully restrict access to the airport as an owner, but not to the airspace.

Note that there are, as far as I know, also no rules that would give the skydive plane itself priority for landing over other traffic.

[broken_slinky]

I would assume that a jumper is considered a glider and a power driven aircraft has to give way to airships, gliders and balloons. That would technically give them control of the airspace above and around the aerodrome as soon as the skydiving operation calls jumpers away.
I would think that in their best interest, the skydiving operation would alert on the radio when all jumpers are on the ground. Just as a good practice to know when they have a correct count of jumpers back on terra firma.
Came across this piece : https://smartpilot.ca/airmanship/airman ... -skydivers

[digits_]

That would technically give them control of the airspace above and around the aerodrome as soon as the skydiving operation calls jumpers away.

No it doesn't. You have to give way to the jumpers. How you do that, is up to the PIC. Climb/descend/turn around. The jump plane has no control over that. He might even have to give way to you, depending on the traffic situation.

[CpnCrunch]

There is no start or end time announced with the call, one would assume the start time is immediately, but how would anyone know when they can resume in bound.

Usually they announce on the radio when the jumpers are down.

[tsgarp]

This is an airmanship issue, not a regulatory issue (other than the prohibition on reckless flying and the right of way rules). The amount of time it takes a skydiver to get to the ground is going to depend on the altitude they jump at. They descend at around 1500 FPM. Just take their exit altitude, do some math, stay clear until the guys are on the ground.

[Big Pistons Forever]

A person conducting a parachute descent is not subject to the CAR's. The applicable regulation only references the pilot of the the jump plane.

Entering or Leaving an Aircraft in Flight
602.25 (1) No person shall enter or leave an aircraft in flight except with the permission of the pilot-in-command of the aircraft.

(2) No pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall permit a person to enter or leave the aircraft during flight unless

(a) the person leaves for the purpose of making a parachute descent;

It is Transport Canada's position that it is the responsibility of the pilot of the jump plane to not permit the skydivers to depart the aircraft if their descent would create a hazard to other aircraft or persons on the ground. Skydive pilots have no authority to restrict airspace and an arriving pilot need only inform the jump plane when the plane makes an announcement that they are about to jump that the airspace will not be free until they land.

As a courtesy pilots may of course elect to delay their arrival to avoid having to delay the jump plane but there is no requirement to do so. Like everything else in aviation pilots are expected to operate safely so flying through an active skydiving area without making an effort to coordinate the flight with the jump plane is being stupid. If the jump plane pilot insists on being a jerk and throwing skydivers out even though it will result in you having to take evasive action then I would suggest forwarding the details to TC enforcement

[2R]

Those parachute cords go through aluminum like a hot knife through butter . One chute took the tail of a PC-8 on the west coast .
The parachutist landed the chute , the plane was destroyed . Pitt Meadows ?

[OttawaValleyFlyer]

There is no start or end time announced with the call, one would assume the start time is immediately, but how would anyone know when they can resume in bound.

Usually they announce on the radio when the jumpers are down.

This isn't the case at CNP3, this is the typical radio call we hear. " Sky Dive 1, jumpers away in 2 minutes, x miles in x direction and x altitude, aircraft in the vicinity, do not fly directly over the field, Sky Dive 1"

There is never a call to advise that all jumpers are down, and often Sky Dive 1 is down, clear and taxied back to the apron before the all the jumpers are down.

It is quite an experience on short final to watch parachutes cross over the runway several minutes after you have heard "Sky Dive 1, down and clear of the active, taxing back to the apron"

[broken_slinky]

That would technically give them control of the airspace above and around the aerodrome as soon as the skydiving operation calls jumpers away.

No it doesn't. You have to give way to the jumpers. How you do that, is up to the PIC. Climb/descend/turn around. The jump plane has no control over that. He might even have to give way to you, depending on the traffic situation.

That's exactly what I said, them being the jumpers.

[broken_slinky]

This isn't the case at CNP3, this is the typical radio call we hear. " Sky Dive 1, jumpers away in 2 minutes, x miles in x direction and x altitude, aircraft in the vicinity, do not fly directly over the field, Sky Dive 1"

There is never a call to advise that all jumpers are down, and often Sky Dive 1 is down, clear and taxied back to the apron before the all the jumpers are down.

It is quite an experience on short final to watch parachutes cross over the runway several minutes after you have heard "Sky Dive 1, down and clear of the active, taxing back to the apron"

That's nearly identical to the radio calls I've heard around CPL4 and 3NP. With the same radio silence afterwards.

[photofly]

I don't think I'd ever want the responsibility of claiming "all jumpers are down" - what if you miscount, someone relies on your assurance, and an accident happens?

It's far more sensible to announce jumpers are in the air then leave it to pilots to take whatever precautions they judge are necessary to avoid danger, for as long as they think might be wise.

[digits_]

That would technically give them control of the airspace above and around the aerodrome as soon as the skydiving operation calls jumpers away.

No it doesn't. You have to give way to the jumpers. How you do that, is up to the PIC. Climb/descend/turn around. The jump plane has no control over that. He might even have to give way to you, depending on the traffic situation.

That's exactly what I said, them being the jumpers.

No it isn't. You claim somebody technically has control. That's incorrect. Neither the plane nor the jumpers control any airspace.

[CpnCrunch]

I don't think I'd ever want the responsibility of claiming "all jumpers are down" - what if you miscount, someone relies on your assurance, and an accident happens?

It's far more sensible to announce jumpers are in the air then leave it to pilots to take whatever precautions they judge are necessary to avoid danger, for as long as they think might be wise.

Omg how difficult is it to count to 4.

[photofly]

I don't think I'd ever want the responsibility of claiming "all jumpers are down" - what if you miscount, someone relies on your assurance, and an accident happens?

It's far more sensible to announce jumpers are in the air then leave it to pilots to take whatever precautions they judge are necessary to avoid danger, for as long as they think might be wise.

Omg how difficult is it to count to 4.

We're talking about jump pilots.

[CpnCrunch]

Omg how difficult is it to count to 4.

We're talking about jump pilots.

I was kind of assuming it was someone on the ground counting the jumpers. I can't imagine the pilot will be hanging around watching them.

I was flying near Qualicum Beach on Saturday and they seem to have nailed it. They make lots of calls on the radio -- taking off, 2 mins to jump giving the altitudes, jumpers away, jumpers on the ground, etc. The jump zone is 10 miles from the airport and marked on the VNC, so it doesn't affect traffic at the airport.

[JasonE]

I've seen airports with a note in the CFS not to overfly the airfield due to jump operations.

[WANP]

I have 38 solo jumps myself, and briefly flew a jump plane.

The announcement is an advisory, the jumpers nor jump plane pilot have authority to control any airspace.
I did also announce that all jumpers were down, when the last one landed.

They are just people, not God.

[bodyflyer2]

I'm late to this discussion, but anyway.

Yes a good dropzone will announce both when they are close to jumping -- e.g., a roughly 2 minute to jump call, roughly when they are turning onto the jump run.

A jump pilot certainly won't know when all jumpers are down, and can't be trying to spot them all while also getting down without wasting time.

Sometimes a ground station at the dropzone (DZ) MIGHT announce it, most don't have someone watching all the jumpers, all the time. There usually isn't staff for that. A DZ with a big plane -- like a Caravan -- will have many more than 4-5 jumpers in the air at once that one would have with a smaller C-182 DZ, so knowing when all jumpers are down becomes trickier.

There can be a lot of variation in how long it takes jumpers to get down -- it can take, I dunno, easily 6 minutes from the first drop.

First (if it is a big plane) there may be several groups of jumpers spread across a minute of exiting. From exit at a typical 10,000' AGL to 13,500' AGL it might take a minimum of 2 minutes to get to the ground, but is typically more like 3-4 minutes. But then a student who has to open higher and fly a big slow canopy, will take a couple minutes more. And tandem jumpers (a big part of the economics of keeping a drop zone open), they open yet higher might land a couple minutes after that. And then someone who was wingsuiting could also land about that late. Rarely there might even be jumpers who open at 10,000+ ft, although if deliberate, that would be announced by radio before the drop.

Remember also that jumps are typically not "directly above" the landing zone area of the airfield, but spread out from there to quite a ways upwind of the field, depending on the low and high level winds (and the parachutes and opening altitudes). I personally on higher wind days have often jumped say 2 km upwind of the landing zone, or about 1.1 nm. A tandem might be open at 5000' AGL while 1 1/2 km from the landing zone. (And the occasional jumper will at rare times land out in field somewhere, typically within a couple km of the DZ.) So one wants to give dropzones a wide berth while flying, and try to listen in on their frequency.

The CYA(P) airspace circle on a map may well be smaller than the area where jumpers actually exit the plane!

Theoretically according to TC, jumps never ever happen through cloud -- But it isn't the way things happen in real life. Popping out of the bottom of a puffy towering Cu, or indeed a near continuous layer of cloud, either in freefall or under canopy is not entirely rare. Depends on the DZ too.

Jumpers ideally do try to look out below before the jump, but that's normally just the first person out the door, for a few seconds, if they are conscientious. It is pretty hard though to quickly spot planes within a say 45 degree cone beneath the plane, up to a couple miles away slant range against the ground.

As a jumper I'd rather have a small plane passing too close to the drop zone at 2000' than at 5000' -- at least for the former I'd usually already be under canopy and slower and looking around. Jumpers aren't looking down during freefall. Maybe even more so than and aerobatic pilot, they are busy doing stuff, not sightseeing.

I won't get into airfield operations where both skydivers and aircraft are using the field at the same time. That's workable, and happens in some places, and has its own local rules.

(Basis for my observations: PPL, 4000+ jumps)

Summary:
- It may take jumpers as long as 6+ minutes to get down from when jumpers start to drop.
- Jumps may happen over a nautical mile from the landing area (upwind).
- small CYA (P) airspace sometimes doesn't actually capture the distance from the drop zone, where jumpers might be in freefall or under parachute
- Some clouds don't always stop jumping
- Jumpers don't look down during the jump (and there will likely only be a cursory look down before the start of a load of jumpers exiting).
- You can complain about dumb ass meat bombs later, but when they're jumping, stay the @#$! away for everyone's sake.

[photofly]

Thank you - that has to be one of the more informative posts I've read this year.