Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by digits_ »

boeingboy wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:45 pm
Sunwing needs to hire approximately 150 pilots to crew for the winter season. This doesn't take into account the fact that many at Sunwing are leaving for Air Canada, Flair, and other opportunities. Significantly, the recent upgrade process at Sunwing for 20 spots magically went all the way to the bottom of the seniority list, whereby well over 30 qualified applicants were bypassed for generic reasons. Clearly Sunwing did this in order to show the government that there is a pilot shortage and they need foreign pilots.
But there is a pilot shortage.....you just made that clear. It's not just Sunwing who's short - it's all the airlines. The entire airline system in Canada is in chaos.

Yea - The upgrade thing sure makes you wonder - but if they did upgrade the 20 FO's to captains - then you just need 20 more FO's - it doesn't change the fact you still need over 150 pilots. We go from 16 of our own A/C to over 40 (all leases). Who's going to fly them? In short - if they can't hire and train them fast enough to replace those that have left (or are leaving) then you still have a business to run and have to do what you can.

You can't blame everything on the company.
If there is a pilot shortage in Canada, one would logically assume the 'crappy' 703 jobs would have trouble finding people long before the 705 jet companies would.

But if you have to take a 50% paycut to go from a crappy 703 to a fancy 705, you can most definitely blame the 705 for its inability to find people.

Especially if the budget is there to pay foreign workers MORE than local pilots!!
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by hithere »

Sweet Jesus man where is your head at? Upgrade those 20 FOs and replace them with hires?
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by fish4life »

boeingboy wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:45 pm
Sunwing needs to hire approximately 150 pilots to crew for the winter season. This doesn't take into account the fact that many at Sunwing are leaving for Air Canada, Flair, and other opportunities. Significantly, the recent upgrade process at Sunwing for 20 spots magically went all the way to the bottom of the seniority list, whereby well over 30 qualified applicants were bypassed for generic reasons. Clearly Sunwing did this in order to show the government that there is a pilot shortage and they need foreign pilots.
But there is a pilot shortage.....you just made that clear. It's not just Sunwing who's short - it's all the airlines. The entire airline system in Canada is in chaos.

Yea - The upgrade thing sure makes you wonder - but if they did upgrade the 20 FO's to captains - then you just need 20 more FO's - it doesn't change the fact you still need over 150 pilots. We go from 16 of our own A/C to over 40 (all leases). Who's going to fly them? In short - if they can't hire and train them fast enough to replace those that have left (or are leaving) then you still have a business to run and have to do what you can.

You can't blame everything on the company.
Westjet and air Canada have more pilots than they need in the shoulder seasons yet don’t go to foreign workers.
If Sunwing started training 6 months ago they’d have the required pilots for this winter also. If they paid $300/hr for cpt and $150 for FO they would also have no problem filling those seats so yes it is the company’s problem.
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by anchovy »

safetyfirst123 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:03 pm
fruz wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:39 pm
NovaBoy wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:46 pm Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t Canadian Sunwing crews fly in Europe during the summer season?
You're also missing a pretty big point. This management is manifesting a situation to demonstrate to Service Canada that there are no pilots available in our market and they've exhausted all attempts to upgrade their own. In doing so they'll appeal for foreign workers to fill in. This is what they've done in the past.

This not only suppresses our pilot group but also our industry in Canada. This isn't good for anyone.
This is it in a nutshell. Thanks for putting it succinctly
Yes and no.... It's not that simple. Having worked for a company who has had to hire foreign workers in the past (not pilots), I can tell you that it is not as simple as turning on a light switch. It is a long and arduous year long process of evaluation and negotiation with the government. Once you have attained the right to do so, you need only prove that the need still exists year after year. If you go through a full year without using the special privileges and you are operating at full capacity, the assumption is that you don't need the foreign workers and you loose that ability from there on end. If you need to do it again later, then you have to start the process all over again.... which again is long and arduous.

It is likely that they manufactured this need so that they can keep exercising that right because in reality in the next few years it MAY actually be required to fill in major gaps vice loosing it and being left high and dry.

I wouldn't be mad at the company for doing this but I might be mad at the union for not presenting said data to the feds for re-evaluation. In reality though, because of the specialized nature of Sunwing... They'll probably have a good enough excuse to keep the privelege.
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by goingmissed »

anchovy wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:28 pm I wouldn't be mad at the company for doing this but I might be mad at the union for not presenting said data to the feds for re-evaluation. In reality though, because of the specialized nature of Sunwing... They'll probably have a good enough excuse to keep the privelege.
Specialized nature of Sunwing? They are pulling the same line as Transat; a charter airline that sells tickets on flights scheduled by it's parent company.

It's about as loophole in nature as a loophole can be.
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by safetyfirst123 »

boeingboy wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:45 pm
Sunwing needs to hire approximately 150 pilots to crew for the winter season. This doesn't take into account the fact that many at Sunwing are leaving for Air Canada, Flair, and other opportunities. Significantly, the recent upgrade process at Sunwing for 20 spots magically went all the way to the bottom of the seniority list, whereby well over 30 qualified applicants were bypassed for generic reasons. Clearly Sunwing did this in order to show the government that there is a pilot shortage and they need foreign pilots.
But there is a pilot shortage.....you just made that clear. It's not just Sunwing who's short - it's all the airlines. The entire airline system in Canada is in chaos.

Yea - The upgrade thing sure makes you wonder - but if they did upgrade the 20 FO's to captains - then you just need 20 more FO's - it doesn't change the fact you still need over 150 pilots. We go from 16 of our own A/C to over 40 (all leases). Who's going to fly them? In short - if they can't hire and train them fast enough to replace those that have left (or are leaving) then you still have a business to run and have to do what you can.

You can't blame everything on the company.
But there isn't a pilot shortage yet. There is a shortage of experienced pilots willing to work for substandard wages especially at a company with an undefined future. There are plenty of expats who would gladly come back to Canada, but it would require reevaluating the pay scale. Sunwing has fallen far behind industry standard, and Canada in general is far behind international standards.

I certainly blame the company when their focus from the beginning seems to be finding loopholes for getting foreign pilots rather than attracting experienced pilots. If and when we start to see Canadians successfully get the US Visas and find employment down south, maybe then we will see a pilot shortage in Canada, and I won't hesitate to blame Canadian companies when pilots leave for better opportunities.
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by daedalusx »

Somehow Sunwing had no problem in 2018-2019 attracting 705 Capts, experienced pilots with jet experience when the T&C weren't absolute dog shit.
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by ads-b »

You just offended dog shit… :D
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by fruz »

The strange case of Transport Canada and their use of Foreign Licence Validation Certificates (FLVC) for Sunwing Airlines in Canada

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/strange- ... Lc1w%3D%3D
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by mmm..bacon »

anchovy wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:28 pm because of the specialized nature of Sunwing...
What 'specialized nature' would that be, the rum 'n sun vacations from northern climates, or the most popular shorthaul jetliner in existence? :roll:
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by daedalusx »

fruz wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:56 pm The strange case of Transport Canada and their use of Foreign Licence Validation Certificates (FLVC) for Sunwing Airlines in Canada

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/strange- ... Lc1w%3D%3D
Nice to see that Gilles is still in the fight.
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by rooster »

daedalusx wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:50 pm
fruz wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:56 pm The strange case of Transport Canada and their use of Foreign Licence Validation Certificates (FLVC) for Sunwing Airlines in Canada

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/strange- ... Lc1w%3D%3D
Nice to see that Gilles is still in the fight.
Here here!
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by homesick »

safetyfirst123 wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 3:07 am
boeingboy wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:45 pm
Sunwing needs to hire approximately 150 pilots to crew for the winter season. This doesn't take into account the fact that many at Sunwing are leaving for Air Canada, Flair, and other opportunities. Significantly, the recent upgrade process at Sunwing for 20 spots magically went all the way to the bottom of the seniority list, whereby well over 30 qualified applicants were bypassed for generic reasons. Clearly Sunwing did this in order to show the government that there is a pilot shortage and they need foreign pilots.
But there is a pilot shortage.....you just made that clear. It's not just Sunwing who's short - it's all the airlines. The entire airline system in Canada is in chaos.

Yea - The upgrade thing sure makes you wonder - but if they did upgrade the 20 FO's to captains - then you just need 20 more FO's - it doesn't change the fact you still need over 150 pilots. We go from 16 of our own A/C to over 40 (all leases). Who's going to fly them? In short - if they can't hire and train them fast enough to replace those that have left (or are leaving) then you still have a business to run and have to do what you can.

You can't blame everything on the company.
But there isn't a pilot shortage yet. There is a shortage of experienced pilots willing to work for substandard wages especially at a company with an undefined future. There are plenty of expats who would gladly come back to Canada, but it would require reevaluating the pay scale. Sunwing has fallen far behind industry standard, and Canada in general is far behind international standards.

I certainly blame the company when their focus from the beginning seems to be finding loopholes for getting foreign pilots rather than attracting experienced pilots. If and when we start to see Canadians successfully get the US Visas and find employment down south, maybe then we will see a pilot shortage in Canada, and I won't hesitate to blame Canadian companies when pilots leave for better opportunities.
Count me as one. I would love to come back home but the wages are horribly below what I make right now. I would have to accept a 60% cut in my take home pay if I ever decided to make the move. At my age that's akin to financial hara-kiri.
Year after year these bottom feeding scoundrels shaft the pilots with zero consequences. And I'm sad to say, the pilots accept it without a whimper.
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by fruz »

Sunwing union opposes Canadian carrier's plans to hire foreign pilots
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-09-25/

Sept 25 (Reuters) - The union for Sunwing Airlines pilots said it is urging Canada's government to stop a plan by the Ontario-based leisure carrier to hire foreign pilots this winter to help cope with an expected holiday travel surge.

Airline industry use of foreign pilots as aviation rebounds from the COVID-19 pandemic is sensitive for unions in Canada and the United States. Those unions want greater efforts to hire pilots from the airlines' home countries despite complaints of shortages. read more

"It's a punch in the face," Barret Armann, president of the union local that represents Sunwing pilots, said of the plan to hire non-Canadian pilots, adding that Labor Minister Seamus O'Regan "needs to step in and stop this."

Sunwing will apply with the government to bring in 65 pilots this winter as temporary foreign workers due partly to a "staffing issue" in the summer, according to a Unifor union local memo to pilots citing a meeting last week with airline management.

Sunwing is in the midst of being acquired by Canada's second-largest carrier WestJet Airlines, owned by private equity firm Onex Corp . read more

It was not clear whether Sunwing has started a formal process to hire foreign pilots. Sunwing did not reply to requests for comment.

The memo described a job ad from Czech carrier SmartWings that said "foreign pilots will indeed work (in Canada) under our contract but be paid more than 75% of our pilots." The memo said Sunwing has available pilots in Canada.

SmartWings did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Holiday air travel is forecast to boom after a pandemic-induced slump the past two years. Canadian airlines are bracing for a busy Christmas season, with Canada expected to further ease COVID-19 travel restrictions. read more

Carriers in the United States and Canada cut thousands of flights this summer as a rebound in travel demand ran into labor shortages.

The use of pilots as temporary foreign workers is rare compared with other sectors. In the first half of 2022, Canadian employers were granted permission to fill 32 pilot positions with temporary foreign workers, according to government data. By comparison, 48,485 temporary farm worker permits were issued over the same period.

O'Regan met this month with Unifor and the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAMAW), which has a separate complaint about Sunwing giving work to foreigners. A spokeswoman for O'Regan said it was up to an employer to meet requirements to bring in temporary foreign workers.

Air Canada's (AC.TO) CEO has said pilots are not an issue for the country's biggest airline.
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by tbaylx »

homesick wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:07 pm
safetyfirst123 wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 3:07 am
boeingboy wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:45 pm

But there is a pilot shortage.....you just made that clear. It's not just Sunwing who's short - it's all the airlines. The entire airline system in Canada is in chaos.

Yea - The upgrade thing sure makes you wonder - but if they did upgrade the 20 FO's to captains - then you just need 20 more FO's - it doesn't change the fact you still need over 150 pilots. We go from 16 of our own A/C to over 40 (all leases). Who's going to fly them? In short - if they can't hire and train them fast enough to replace those that have left (or are leaving) then you still have a business to run and have to do what you can.

You can't blame everything on the company.
But there isn't a pilot shortage yet. There is a shortage of experienced pilots willing to work for substandard wages especially at a company with an undefined future. There are plenty of expats who would gladly come back to Canada, but it would require reevaluating the pay scale. Sunwing has fallen far behind industry standard, and Canada in general is far behind international standards.

I certainly blame the company when their focus from the beginning seems to be finding loopholes for getting foreign pilots rather than attracting experienced pilots. If and when we start to see Canadians successfully get the US Visas and find employment down south, maybe then we will see a pilot shortage in Canada, and I won't hesitate to blame Canadian companies when pilots leave for better opportunities.
Count me as one. I would love to come back home but the wages are horribly below what I make right now. I would have to accept a 60% cut in my take home pay if I ever decided to make the move. At my age that's akin to financial hara-kiri.
Year after year these bottom feeding scoundrels shaft the pilots with zero consequences. And I'm sad to say, the pilots accept it without a whimper.
It's not the wages that make it hard to come home it's the taxes. In the end, you'd have to make 400K in Canada to come close to a ex-pat wages
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by elite »

It can never be good economics on the part of a government to “reward” those who work and contribute to the economy by taking more than half of their money in taxes!! Somehow it continues to elude the socialists/communists! It’s bizarre!!
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by homesick »

tbaylx wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:05 am
homesick wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:07 pm
safetyfirst123 wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 3:07 am

But there isn't a pilot shortage yet. There is a shortage of experienced pilots willing to work for substandard wages especially at a company with an undefined future. There are plenty of expats who would gladly come back to Canada, but it would require reevaluating the pay scale. Sunwing has fallen far behind industry standard, and Canada in general is far behind international standards.

I certainly blame the company when their focus from the beginning seems to be finding loopholes for getting foreign pilots rather than attracting experienced pilots. If and when we start to see Canadians successfully get the US Visas and find employment down south, maybe then we will see a pilot shortage in Canada, and I won't hesitate to blame Canadian companies when pilots leave for better opportunities.
Count me as one. I would love to come back home but the wages are horribly below what I make right now. I would have to accept a 60% cut in my take home pay if I ever decided to make the move. At my age that's akin to financial hara-kiri.
Year after year these bottom feeding scoundrels shaft the pilots with zero consequences. And I'm sad to say, the pilots accept it without a whimper.
It's not the wages that make it hard to come home it's the taxes. In the end, you'd have to make 400K in Canada to come close to a ex-pat wages
Indeed. It is unrealistic to expect airlines in Canada to match expat wages. However, I am willing to take a pay cut even with taxes factored in. But the current pay standards are woefully inadequate to entice me to return home. We don't need to look far to see how out of step the current standards are. There are numerous threads highlighting the glaring disparity between Canada and the US.

I, like many other expats, made a sacrifice to be away from home and family to earn that extra money. It is but natural to sacrifice pay to come back home. Can't have it all.
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Re: Sunwing Airlines Bringing Foreign Pilots This Winter

Post by chaster »

fruz wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:03 am Sunwing union opposes Canadian carrier's plans to hire foreign pilots
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-09-25/

Sept 25 (Reuters) - The union for Sunwing Airlines pilots said it is urging Canada's government to stop a plan by the Ontario-based leisure carrier to hire foreign pilots this winter to help cope with an expected holiday travel surge.

Airline industry use of foreign pilots as aviation rebounds from the COVID-19 pandemic is sensitive for unions in Canada and the United States. Those unions want greater efforts to hire pilots from the airlines' home countries despite complaints of shortages. read more

"It's a punch in the face," Barret Armann, president of the union local that represents Sunwing pilots, said of the plan to hire non-Canadian pilots, adding that Labor Minister Seamus O'Regan "needs to step in and stop this."

Sunwing will apply with the government to bring in 65 pilots this winter as temporary foreign workers due partly to a "staffing issue" in the summer, according to a Unifor union local memo to pilots citing a meeting last week with airline management.

Sunwing is in the midst of being acquired by Canada's second-largest carrier WestJet Airlines, owned by private equity firm Onex Corp . read more

It was not clear whether Sunwing has started a formal process to hire foreign pilots. Sunwing did not reply to requests for comment.

The memo described a job ad from Czech carrier SmartWings that said "foreign pilots will indeed work (in Canada) under our contract but be paid more than 75% of our pilots." The memo said Sunwing has available pilots in Canada.

SmartWings did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Holiday air travel is forecast to boom after a pandemic-induced slump the past two years. Canadian airlines are bracing for a busy Christmas season, with Canada expected to further ease COVID-19 travel restrictions. read more

Carriers in the United States and Canada cut thousands of flights this summer as a rebound in travel demand ran into labor shortages.

The use of pilots as temporary foreign workers is rare compared with other sectors. In the first half of 2022, Canadian employers were granted permission to fill 32 pilot positions with temporary foreign workers, according to government data. By comparison, 48,485 temporary farm worker permits were issued over the same period.

O'Regan met this month with Unifor and the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAMAW), which has a separate complaint about Sunwing giving work to foreigners. A spokeswoman for O'Regan said it was up to an employer to meet requirements to bring in temporary foreign workers.

Air Canada's (AC.TO) CEO has said pilots are not an issue for the country's biggest airline.
Oppose It by taking a real stand SET THE BRAKE! To think that a Sunwing pilot would be paid 75% Less then a Travel Service Pilot is criminal not to mention those Being passed over for an up grade. Pilots in Canada will affect change when they put their pants on..
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