Flow through to AC

[Fanblade]

Update on flow from VP of flt ops today.

No Jazz pilots uptake in AC GS for October.

Additional info from JZA MEC an hour later. AC not taking JZA pilots next month to ensure block hours can be completed. 60% annual flow may not be met. JZA MEC exploring several options.

If AC is where you want to go, jump the line and go to WS, AT, Flair.

Epic fail.

When you cannot control the rate of resignations to Porter/Flair/Transat/Morningstar/CargoJet/etc, you try to control the rate of resignations to AC.

There needs to be a broader solution. This is not a plan. It is a (weak) reaction and is not sustainable.

Nope,

So how do the pilot groups at Jazz and ACPA leverage this?

For the company this is simply about money. They had a retention carrot that was free. They can’t keep going with the retention carrot but also don’t want to pay anything.

That should be a non starter from both groups.

We both need raises. We should both be leveraging everything we can get our hands on. Carrots that are free to the company only benefit them.

What would be a good trade, for both groups, in exchange for AC pilots to agree to reserved numbers?

The end of four year flat pay at our end would certainly have traction. It would also help those flowing through and off the street.

What would Jazz want?

We need to start thinking this way.

But to operate this way you need to be willing to play a little chicken. You need to be less than willing to solve the companies issues without compensation. You need to think like management only so far as to understand how to leverage their problems. Not solve them for free.

Things are changing over here. Glacially, but changing.

[canadian_aviator_4]

This is going to be interesting to see how it plays out. I think AC is being very short sighted.

I don’t think it’s short-sighted. Air Canada is caught between a rock and a hard place. They need to ensure that Jazz has enough pilots on payroll to staff the Express operation. If they were to meet the 60% hiring commitment at the present time, they would be unable to staff the Express operation and would be faced with cancelling a significant number of flights, which obviously incurs a corresponding financial penalty. Faced with a choice between appeasing Jazz pilots vis—a-vis mainline hiring or keeping the airline staffed and operating, there is only one real choice.

The blame for this predicament falls squarely on Jazz management in my opinion. They should have aggressively ramped up hiring in the Spring when Air Canada did the same, but they’ve failed to do so. Now they’re caught in a staffing issue of their own making. I suspect the issue will only be compounded further as experienced Jazz pilots elect to jump ship and try their luck at other 705 operators in the hopes of making it to mainline. I’m not sure that there’s an easy solution to this one.

The only reason AC signed that agreement with Jazz, was it ensured a steady stream of qualified pilots to fill their ground schools when hiring was going bezerk. They've got a ton of OTS resumes to pull from now, and hiring isn't quite as frantic as it was pre-covid, so they don't need this agreement anymore.

AC doesn't care where the pilots come from, so long as they can fill ground schools.

The agreement was signed to get rid of the DB pension at Jazz for hires 2015 and beyond. Getting rid of the pension saved Jazz millions, and provided AC a stream of candidates. Now, without the flow, jazz has nothing of advantage to give to junior members. It’s basically two companies. Those senior pilots with c2 passes, deadheads with upgrades, and a pension. Then junior pilots with non of these items.

[kiaszceski]

I don’t think it’s short-sighted. Air Canada is caught between a rock and a hard place. They need to ensure that Jazz has enough pilots on payroll to staff the Express operation. If they were to meet the 60% hiring commitment at the present time, they would be unable to staff the Express operation and would be faced with cancelling a significant number of flights, which obviously incurs a corresponding financial penalty. Faced with a choice between appeasing Jazz pilots vis—a-vis mainline hiring or keeping the airline staffed and operating, there is only one real choice.

The blame for this predicament falls squarely on Jazz management in my opinion. They should have aggressively ramped up hiring in the Spring when Air Canada did the same, but they’ve failed to do so. Now they’re caught in a staffing issue of their own making. I suspect the issue will only be compounded further as experienced Jazz pilots elect to jump ship and try their luck at other 705 operators in the hopes of making it to mainline. I’m not sure that there’s an easy solution to this one.

The only reason AC signed that agreement with Jazz, was it ensured a steady stream of qualified pilots to fill their ground schools when hiring was going bezerk. They've got a ton of OTS resumes to pull from now, and hiring isn't quite as frantic as it was pre-covid, so they don't need this agreement anymore.

AC doesn't care where the pilots come from, so long as they can fill ground schools.

The agreement was signed to get rid of the DB pension at Jazz for hires 2015 and beyond. Getting rid of the pension saved Jazz millions, and provided AC a stream of candidates. Now, without the flow, jazz has nothing of advantage to give to junior members. It’s basically two companies. Those senior pilots with c2 passes, deadheads with upgrades, and a pension. Then junior pilots with non of these items.

So what if Jazz/AC gives back those benefits and includes a seniority number at AC, would people stay?

[Topgun13]

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[Ash Ketchum]

The only reason AC signed that agreement with Jazz, was it ensured a steady stream of qualified pilots to fill their ground schools when hiring was going bezerk. They've got a ton of OTS resumes to pull from now, and hiring isn't quite as frantic as it was pre-covid, so they don't need this agreement anymore.

AC doesn't care where the pilots come from, so long as they can fill ground schools.

The agreement was signed to get rid of the DB pension at Jazz for hires 2015 and beyond. Getting rid of the pension saved Jazz millions, and provided AC a stream of candidates. Now, without the flow, jazz has nothing of advantage to give to junior members. It’s basically two companies. Those senior pilots with c2 passes, deadheads with upgrades, and a pension. Then junior pilots with non of these items.

So what if Jazz/AC gives back those benefits and includes a seniority number at AC, would people stay?

I think just the seniority number at AC would keep most at Jazz.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Agreed

[Fanblade]

But the AC pilots are unlikely to agree to reserved numbers unless there was something in return.

That leaves paying for retention at Jazz or doing nothing and except the exodus.

They are picking the latter and wait and see

If it gets bad enough AC will need to rethink.

[RockSalty]

The agreement was signed to get rid of the DB pension at Jazz for hires 2015 and beyond. Getting rid of the pension saved Jazz millions, and provided AC a stream of candidates. Now, without the flow, jazz has nothing of advantage to give to junior members. It’s basically two companies. Those senior pilots with c2 passes, deadheads with upgrades, and a pension. Then junior pilots with non of these items.

So what if Jazz/AC gives back those benefits and includes a seniority number at AC, would people stay?

I think just the seniority number at AC would keep most at Jazz.

Doubt we’d see this happen with how it’s worked out with Encore/WJ

[Loon-A-Tic]

The agreement was signed to get rid of the DB pension at Jazz for hires 2015 and beyond. Getting rid of the pension saved Jazz millions, and provided AC a stream of candidates. Now, without the flow, jazz has nothing of advantage to give to junior members. It’s basically two companies. Those senior pilots with c2 passes, deadheads with upgrades, and a pension. Then junior pilots with non of these items.

So what if Jazz/AC gives back those benefits and includes a seniority number at AC, would people stay?

I think just the seniority number at AC would keep most at Jazz.

It won't keep any of the older pilots the flat pay stop them, but improved pay and a better pension might.

[Transition9er2]

There would need to be some serious language put out regarding a reserved seniority number situation and how it works.

The way the world is changing at the moment, you can’t plan for next month let a lone the next 2 years.

I would be extremely cautious agreeing to this. What happens if they change their minds 1yr into the deal due to “unforeseen circumstances”?

Both airlines are quickly losing credibility when it comes to contracts.

[tango308]

Folks let's not fall for the AC carrot once again. Let's start with something tangible, better pay and go from there. Look at what is happening at the US regionals for example.

[pitottubey]

Folks let's not fall for the AC carrot once again. Let's start with something tangible, better pay and go from there. Look at what is happening at the US regionals for example.

Ya reserved seniority numbers just seems like the next carrot they wont honour. Pilots falling for the same shit all over again. Permanently raised wages is the only thing to be trusted at this point.

[Sharklasers]

Reserved seniority with no definitive timeline for hiring seems rife with problems and would likely lead to a DFR at some point like LOU 18 did.

The Jazz ALPA MeC seems weak and ineffectual. The ‘wear your lanyard’ comment was farcical.

The Jazz ALPA MEC sold the membership a bill of goods in 2015 promising career progression in exchange for a punitive B scale and historic erosion of the wawcon.

This isn’t the fault of AC or ACPA or their pilots if they turn down some sort of reservation system. It isn’t our fault if Jazz cannot meet it’s contractual obligations.

Every month Jazz pilots lose 100 numbers while OTS candidates get hired and will potentially have entirely different careers and outcomes because of it.

[daedalusx]

Reserved seniority with no definitive timeline for hiring seems rife with problems and would likely lead to a DFR at some point like LOU 18 did.

The Jazz ALPA MeC seems weak and ineffectual. The ‘wear your lanyard’ comment was farcical.

The Jazz ALPA MEC sold the membership a bill of goods in 2015 promising career progression in exchange for a punitive B scale and historic erosion of the wawcon.

This isn’t the fault of AC or ACPA or their pilots if they turn down some sort of reservation system. It isn’t our fault if Jazz cannot meet it’s contractual obligations.

Every month Jazz pilots lose 100 numbers while OTS candidates get hired and will potentially have entirely different careers and outcomes because of it.

Wear your ALPA lanyard, that will really show management who’s the boss
Didn’t Unifor, the auto workers union, told SWG crews to do the same thing after it was revealed that SWG negotiated in bad faith re: the sale to WJ during the last contract negotiation and then got utterly betrayed when their own leader, bribe-taker and drug addicted Jerry D went out in the press and said that they actually made gains during the last negotiations even though it was a 20% paycut on top of SWG hiring DEC TFWs and canceling benefits. Where’s the power of the lanyard?!

Wearing your union lanyard doesn’t do jack shit you spineless morons.

Put the parking brake on. Book off if you’re fatigued/sick even at an outstation. Stop picking up the phone on your day off, stop picking up trips in open time and see how quickly things start to improve when Jazz has a 30% flight cancellation rate due to understaffing.

Mind you, it’ll never happen because the wages that you’ve signed on a 10 year contract are such shit poverty wages that every one is compelled to do OT to pay the bills and survive the rising cost of living due to inflation.

My job gave me a 30% pay increase in the last 6 month, adjusted for inflation, cost of living and increased revenue. How much a jazzie FO T4 will be in 2022 vs 2021 vs inflation and housing increase?

[Nick678]

I don’t think they could improve our contract enough to make it appealing to stay. We have to admit we put our saddle on a shit horse and walk away.

No PML no flow no thank you

[Loon-A-Tic]

Jazz need a “full” reset on all levels, pay, pension, benefits etc. They need to rebrand themselves as a career employer with an AC “flow thru” option for those chasing the “big iron”

[Topgun13]

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[QKZXKV]

Reserved seniority with no definitive timeline for hiring seems rife with problems and would likely lead to a DFR at some point like LOU 18 did.

The Jazz ALPA MeC seems weak and ineffectual. The ‘wear your lanyard’ comment was farcical.

The Jazz ALPA MEC sold the membership a bill of goods in 2015 promising career progression in exchange for a punitive B scale and historic erosion of the wawcon.

This isn’t the fault of AC or ACPA or their pilots if they turn down some sort of reservation system. It isn’t our fault if Jazz cannot meet it’s contractual obligations.

Every month Jazz pilots lose 100 numbers while OTS candidates get hired and will potentially have entirely different careers and outcomes because of it.

Wear your ALPA lanyard, that will really show management who’s the boss
Didn’t Unifor, the auto workers union, told SWG crews to do the same thing after it was revealed that SWG negotiated in bad faith re: the sale to WJ during the last contract negotiation and then got utterly betrayed when their own leader, bribe-taker and drug addicted Jerry D went out in the press and said that they actually made gains during the last negotiations even though it was a 20% paycut on top of SWG hiring DEC TFWs and canceling benefits. Where’s the power of the lanyard?!

Wearing your union lanyard doesn’t do jack shit you spineless morons.

Put the parking brake on. Book off if you’re fatigued/sick even at an outstation. Stop picking up the phone on your day off, stop picking up trips in open time and see how quickly things start to improve when Jazz has a 30% flight cancellation rate due to understaffing.

Mind you, it’ll never happen because the wages that you’ve signed on a 10 year contract are such shit poverty wages that every one is compelled to do OT to pay the bills and survive the rising cost of living due to inflation.

My job gave me a 30% pay increase in the last 6 month, adjusted for inflation, cost of living and increased revenue. How much a jazzie FO T4 will be in 2022 vs 2021 vs inflation and housing increase?

I saw that email from a friend. Had to laugh at the lanyard comment. I never wore my ALPA lanyard... what kind of miracle will that produce?

Interesting how the Montreal Mafia wants to use this as a point of negotiation; forgetting that they signed away all that for a 17y turd back in 2019.
I guess the imagined leverage is working well...

I can't for the life of me understand how ALPA and its band of mentors can continue to sell a turd to its association but I digress.

[negative_g]

Funny how Canadians think the lanyard means nothing. Look south of the border, it's a completely different story. Delta rocking lanyards that say "A CONTRACT IS A CONTRACT" in lime green. Don't think Delta management and the public don't notice. Its not about YOU, it's about visibility and sending a message of unity.

As an AC pilot who isn't even allowed to wear an ACPA lanyard, I can't wait for the day we job ALPA and I can dust off my old one.

You guys miss the mark big time on this.

[QKZXKV]

You guys miss the mark big time on this.

We missed nothing...

Comparing us to the US is weak. The Montreal Mafia is allowed to run around unchecked here because it's too disjointed with Virginia... but you're entitled to that rose coloured viewpoint...