Flow through to AC

[QKZXKV]

and bringing up ACPA every time as a way of pity is tired... We keep making our beds with that old boy's club every single time!

[negative_g]

You guys miss the mark big time on this.

We missed nothing...

Comparing us to the US is weak. The Montreal Mafia is allowed to run around unchecked here because it's too disjointed with Virginia... but you're entitled to that rose coloured viewpoint...

Your attitude is a big part of why Canadian WAWCON keeps decreasing. Pilots just don't give a shit, they don't know or understand what actual unity looks like. Constant infighting and it's quite frustrating to watch.

[Topgun13]

-

[negative_g]

Does anyone think that 17 year deal would have passed without the flow deal to AC? I think I know the answer. If AC is negging on the 60% it in some way completely invalidates the whole 17 years thing IMO. Maybe write your reps and get them to push on that.

[QKZXKV]

You guys miss the mark big time on this.

We missed nothing...

Comparing us to the US is weak. The Montreal Mafia is allowed to run around unchecked here because it's too disjointed with Virginia... but you're entitled to that rose coloured viewpoint...

Your attitude is a big part of why Canadian WAWCON keeps decreasing. Pilots just don't give a shit, they don't know or understand what actual unity looks like. Constant infighting and it's quite frustrating to watch.

No...

it's the fact that our Union brass are another extension of management... Both ACPA and ALPA.

[Caterpillar]

A contract is a contract. We accepted lower wages for the FOs while getting the guarantee 60% (max 10% rejection).

ALPA MEC better be defending the contract.

[Cavalier44]

Air Canada has hired ~160 pilots this year, including the latest PIT course that just started. My understanding is that the intention is to hire 40 pilots per PIT course and run two PIT courses per month for the foreseeable future. That's one more course for September, two for October, two for November, and I'll guess one for December due to the holidays, giving a total of six PIT courses remaining for the year.

Doing some quick math, that adds up to 400 new-hire pilots for 2022. Now granted, AC hasn't managed to achieve exactly 40 pilots per course, but since that's what the plan is, those are the numbers that I'll assume for the sake of argument.

400 pilots * 0.6 gives 240, which is the number of pilots Air Canada would have had to hire from Jazz this year in order to meet the agreed-upon 60% ratio. I'll assume that all of the Jazz pilots out of our hypothetical 240 would be Captains based on the dates of hire of the pilots that they would have been offering the jobs to. Which leads to some pertinent questions, namely: Does Jazz have 240 upgradeable FOs on its seniority list to fill the vacancies of those pilots who would be leaving for AC? And, if they did, do they have the capacity to hire 240 FOs this year to replace those who would be upgrading? I'm making an educated guess that the answer to both of those questions is "no".

Continuing with this line of thinking, one can only assume that Air Canada and Jazz have an ongoing dialogue with regard to future hiring requirements. It seems certain to me that at some point over the last six months, AC management must have sat down with Jazz and said "hey, we're planning to hire 400 pilots this year, how many can you realistically give us?" The fact that we're now at a point where Jazz has decided they don't have enough pilots on their roster to send a certain number to Air Canada speaks volumes. I suspect that this is in no way a surprise for Jazz management, they would have known all along that sending 240 pilots to Air Canada before the end of the year was a pie-in-the-sky fantasy.

So, what should Air Canada do about this situation? If they stick to the agreement and deplete the ranks at Jazz, they would inadvertently create a staffing crisis that would lead to a number of flight cancellations. Even if ALPA were to file a grievance and the case was to go before an arbitrator, would an impartial third party truly agree that that is the most rational course of action?

While Jazz management largely bares the fault here due to being unable to staff their operation at an appropriate level, much of that is also symptomatic of the fact that the 17-year contract is no longer sufficient to attract new candidates in sufficient number; especially not to attract Direct Entry Captains, which they're going to need a significant number of since they don't seem to have enough pilots left on property who are upgradeable.

I believe that there is a silver lining here, in that there will need to be some serious conversations going forward with regard to the contract and whether it's attractive enough to maintain hiring at a level that allows Jazz to function. The bean counters at Air Canada have been attempting over the last decade to engineer sub-par contracts that save the airline and its regional partners enormous sums of money in labour costs. Now they are reaping the reward of their efforts - we're entering into a new pilot shortage and the present working conditions are no longer sufficient to attract enough new hires to allow the airline to function in the way that they'd like to. I hope that Jazz pilots and ALPA will be among the first in this country to capitalize on this new dynamic to make significant improvements in the pilots' favour.

[negative_g]

So, what should Air Canada do about this situation? If they stick to the agreement and deplete the ranks at Jazz, they would inadvertently create a staffing crisis that would lead to a number of flight cancellations. Even if ALPA were to file a grievance and the case was to go before an arbitrator, would an impartial third party truly agree that that is the most rational course of action?

Thing is, why would AC do this? Grounded Jazz planes means empty WBs. There's no way AC depletes Jazz. Unless there's a deferral deal I 100% expect them to ignore the agreement and hire OTS. They will put the business first, and working against yourself by essentially causing a staffing crisis at your only feeder isn't going to happen.

Also with regards to the 40/class, it hasn't even been close. AC can't even fill classes OTS right now. There's even reports of a few no shows day one. Sounds like Flair is taking a lot of pilots who were on the fence of coming to AC anyways, and going DEC at Flair.

Which is good.

[Cavalier44]

So, what should Air Canada do about this situation? If they stick to the agreement and deplete the ranks at Jazz, they would inadvertently create a staffing crisis that would lead to a number of flight cancellations. Even if ALPA were to file a grievance and the case was to go before an arbitrator, would an impartial third party truly agree that that is the most rational course of action?

Thing is, why would AC do this? Grounded Jazz planes means empty WBs. There's no way AC depletes Jazz. Unless there's a deferral deal I 100% expect them to ignore the agreement and hire OTS. They will put the business first, and working against yourself by essentially causing a staffing crisis at your only feeder isn't going to happen.

I know, I agree with you. It was a rhetorical question.

Also with regards to the 40/class, it hasn't even been close. AC can't even fill classes OTS right now. There's even reports of a few no shows day one. Sounds like Flair is taking a lot of pilots who were on the fence of coming to AC anyways, and going DEC at Flair.

I'm aware. However, my understanding based on what I've been told from reputable sources in the training department is that the target is 40 per PIT course going forward. I've used 40 for argument's sake, because I think when Air Canada had the discussion with Jazz as to how many pilots they were going to hire this year, they assumed 400 pilots from June to December, not whatever they happen to be getting now.

[Ash Ketchum]

I am truly curious how many of those Jazz captains that were about to flow to AC will leave Jazz to other non AC airlines now that they know the flow has stopped. This may cause a staffing shortage either way unless Jazz can step up and raise pay or offer seniority numbers at AC.

[belgianmoon]

Message from Chorus(Jazz)- The CPA with Air Canada has been extended to 2035.

[QKZXKV]

Message from Chorus(Jazz)- The CPA with Air Canada has been extended to 2035.

Don't remind me

[Inverted2]

I am truly curious how many of those Jazz captains that were about to flow to AC will leave Jazz to other non AC airlines now that they know the flow has stopped. This may cause a staffing shortage either way unless Jazz can step up and raise pay or offer seniority numbers at AC.

If you are hell bent on AC I wouldn’t quit Jazz to go to a competitor of AC to try and get in quicker. The first thing they will probably ask as is why you quit the “team” only to want to come back. Air Canada will probably see you quitting Jazz as a huge disrespect. The only solution is to reserve seniority numbers when they flow over. Otherwise going behind everyone else OTS means you’re last in and first to be laid off in the next slowdown and I guarantee that will happen sooner or later.

[canadian_aviator_4]

I am truly curious how many of those Jazz captains that were about to flow to AC will leave Jazz to other non AC airlines now that they know the flow has stopped. This may cause a staffing shortage either way unless Jazz can step up and raise pay or offer seniority numbers at AC.

If you are hell bent on AC I wouldn’t quit Jazz to go to a competitor of AC to try and get in quicker. The first thing they will probably ask as is why you quit the “team” only to want to come back. Air Canada will probably see you quitting Jazz as a huge disrespect. The only solution is to reserve seniority numbers when they flow over. Otherwise going behind everyone else OTS means you’re last in and first to be laid off in the next slowdown and I guarantee that will happen sooner or later.

I think quitting and going to competitor can be a good decision. Lots have done it and gone to ac quicker. Just depends on how much experience you have going to a competitor and whether you will be marketable to ac compared to the competition being hired.

[rudder]

I believe that there is a silver lining here, in that there will need to be some serious conversations going forward with regard to the contract and whether it's attractive enough to maintain hiring at a level that allows Jazz to function. The bean counters at Air Canada have been attempting over the last decade to engineer sub-par contracts that save the airline and its regional partners enormous sums of money in labour costs. Now they are reaping the reward of their efforts - we're entering into a new pilot shortage and the present working conditions are no longer sufficient to attract enough new hires to allow the airline to function in the way that they'd like to. I hope that Jazz pilots and ALPA will be among the first in this country to capitalize on this new dynamic to make significant improvements in the pilots' favour.

There is no such conversation going on.

Meanwhile, pilots are figuring out that there are better paths to AC than Jazz. AC is effectively telling pilots where to go by its hiring demographics.

Any carrier that is non-responsive in this new era of pilot supply competition will soon discover that they are nobody’s first choice. Responsive is not just compensation if there were other guarantees proffered that are no longer being honoured.

[Fanblade]

I am truly curious how many of those Jazz captains that were about to flow to AC will leave Jazz to other non AC airlines now that they know the flow has stopped. This may cause a staffing shortage either way unless Jazz can step up and raise pay or offer seniority numbers at AC.

If you are hell bent on AC I wouldn’t quit Jazz to go to a competitor of AC to try and get in quicker. The first thing they will probably ask as is why you quit the “team” only to want to come back. Air Canada will probably see you quitting Jazz as a huge disrespect. The only solution is to reserve seniority numbers when they flow over. Otherwise going behind everyone else OTS means you’re last in and first to be laid off in the next slowdown and I guarantee that will happen sooner or later.

Air Canada is using a job at AC as a carrot to get lower wages at Jazz. That is what flow through is in their eyes. A free way to get cheap pilots at the feeder. If ACPA were to agree to reserved seniority numbers, then ACPA would be participating in lower wages at Jazz.

We need to stop this constant downward pressure on wages.

For the pilot shortage to have its maximum effect, we need to let supply and demand do its job. Carrots used to artificially lower wages, in opposition to the forces of supply and demand, only benefit AC.

I’m not suggesting flow through agreements don’t have their place. Nor am I saying it’s okay for AC to walk away from their contractual commitments to Jazz pilots either. AC should be aggressively challenged for this.

But asking ACPA to bail out AC’s failure to live up to their obligations, in a manor that would help keep wages lower is anti Union. It would be ACPA acting in a manor that is not in the best interest of the profession as a whole.

Now I get that has been ACPA’s trademark move to pull the industry down. But that has to stop. Unless the old guard retakes ACPA and turns it back into an extension of management reserved numbers are not likely.

What is likely is ACPA let’s AC live with the consequences of its decisions.

[Fanblade]

I believe that there is a silver lining here, in that there will need to be some serious conversations going forward with regard to the contract and whether it's attractive enough to maintain hiring at a level that allows Jazz to function. The bean counters at Air Canada have been attempting over the last decade to engineer sub-par contracts that save the airline and its regional partners enormous sums of money in labour costs. Now they are reaping the reward of their efforts - we're entering into a new pilot shortage and the present working conditions are no longer sufficient to attract enough new hires to allow the airline to function in the way that they'd like to. I hope that Jazz pilots and ALPA will be among the first in this country to capitalize on this new dynamic to make significant improvements in the pilots' favour.

There is no such conversation going on.

Meanwhile, pilots are figuring out that there are better paths to AC than Jazz. AC is effectively telling pilots where to go by its hiring demographics.

Any carrier that is non-responsive in this new era of pilot supply competition will soon discover that they are nobody’s first choice. Responsive is not just compensation if there were other guarantees proffered that are no longer being honoured.

Exactly,

Let the competition for pilots begin!

And AC could always change course. Which they very much might when the consequences of their current choices show their ugly face.

But they are not going to open their wallet on hypothetical. They won’t do that until smacked in the face with what is likely to happen.

We can all see the problem and the solution. But it takes $. They won’t go there until the pain threshold hold is an eleven out of ten.

Short sighted yes.

Stand back and watch. Don’t try to solve it for them. Let supply and demand to its job.

[rudder]

I am truly curious how many of those Jazz captains that were about to flow to AC will leave Jazz to other non AC airlines now that they know the flow has stopped. This may cause a staffing shortage either way unless Jazz can step up and raise pay or offer seniority numbers at AC.

If you are hell bent on AC I wouldn’t quit Jazz to go to a competitor of AC to try and get in quicker. The first thing they will probably ask as is why you quit the “team” only to want to come back. Air Canada will probably see you quitting Jazz as a huge disrespect. The only solution is to reserve seniority numbers when they flow over. Otherwise going behind everyone else OTS means you’re last in and first to be laid off in the next slowdown and I guarantee that will happen sooner or later.

Air Canada is using a job at AC as a carrot to get lower wages at Jazz. That is what flow through is in their eyes. A free way to get cheap pilots at the feeder. If ACPA were to agree to reserved seniority numbers, then ACPA would be participating in lower wages at Jazz.

We need to stop this constant downward pressure on wages.

For the pilot shortage to have its maximum effect, we need to let supply and demand do its job. Carrots used to artificially lower wages, in opposition to the forces of supply and demand, only benefit AC.

I’m not suggesting flow through agreements don’t have their place. Nor am I saying it’s okay for AC to walk away from their contractual commitments to Jazz pilots either. AC should be aggressively challenged for this.

But asking ACPA to bail out AC’s failure to live up to their obligations, in a manor that would help keep wages lower is anti Union. It would be ACPA acting in a manor that is not in the best interest of the profession as a whole.

Now I get that has been ACPA’s trademark move to pull the industry down. But that has to stop. Unless the old guard retakes ACPA and turns it back into an extension of management reserved numbers are not likely.

What is likely is ACPA let’s AC live with the consequences of its decisions.

If MS offered ACPA a dramatically improved new-hire pay scheme at AC in exchange for a PML 1 style seniority deferral arrangement, ACPA would be hard pressed to say no.

As for Jazz, it has been largely unsuccessful in attracting any meaningful volume of qualified DEC applicants nor DEC bidders on the initial courses. It also needs to seriously rethink entry level pay.

Flow was never going to be enough to fill the rapidly emptying seats since the opportunities out there are expanding and not limited to AC. And now flow has a huge question mark beside it.

[Fanblade]

If you are hell bent on AC I wouldn’t quit Jazz to go to a competitor of AC to try and get in quicker. The first thing they will probably ask as is why you quit the “team” only to want to come back. Air Canada will probably see you quitting Jazz as a huge disrespect. The only solution is to reserve seniority numbers when they flow over. Otherwise going behind everyone else OTS means you’re last in and first to be laid off in the next slowdown and I guarantee that will happen sooner or later.

Air Canada is using a job at AC as a carrot to get lower wages at Jazz. That is what flow through is in their eyes. A free way to get cheap pilots at the feeder. If ACPA were to agree to reserved seniority numbers, then ACPA would be participating in lower wages at Jazz.

We need to stop this constant downward pressure on wages.

For the pilot shortage to have its maximum effect, we need to let supply and demand do its job. Carrots used to artificially lower wages, in opposition to the forces of supply and demand, only benefit AC.

I’m not suggesting flow through agreements don’t have their place. Nor am I saying it’s okay for AC to walk away from their contractual commitments to Jazz pilots either. AC should be aggressively challenged for this.

But asking ACPA to bail out AC’s failure to live up to their obligations, in a manor that would help keep wages lower is anti Union. It would be ACPA acting in a manor that is not in the best interest of the profession as a whole.

Now I get that has been ACPA’s trademark move to pull the industry down. But that has to stop. Unless the old guard retakes ACPA and turns it back into an extension of management reserved numbers are not likely.

What is likely is ACPA let’s AC live with the consequences of its decisions.

If MS offered ACPA a dramatically improved new-hire pay scheme at AC in exchange for a PML 1 style seniority deferral arrangement, ACPA would be hard pressed to say no.

As for Jazz, it has been largely unsuccessful in attracting any meaningful volume of qualified DEC applicants nor DEC bidders on the initial courses. It also needs to seriously rethink entry level pay.

Flow was never going to be enough to fill the rapidly emptying seats since the opportunities out there are expanding and not limited to AC. And now flow has a huge question mark beside it.

Yes on all counts.

But the key ingredient in $.

AC will only go there if everything else fails.

Stand back and watch. Don’t fix it for them. Wait.

We pilots are trained to see problems and to mitigate them.

In this case? Avoid the temptation to mitigate or solve it for them.

Wait and then leverage.

[Fanblade]

Air Canada ordered to pay passengers $2,000 for flight cancellation caused by crew shortage

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-ca ... 2dbisH2N-8

Just wait.