Flow through to AC
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Flow through to AC
How come there has been zero Jazz pilots in the last two New Hire classes at AC?
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Re: Flow through to AC
I think AC is holding off hiring from Jazz for the summer. Don't quote me, I'm not 100% sure. It'll start up again.Art Garfunkel wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:07 pm How come there has been zero Jazz pilots in the last two New Hire classes at AC?
Re: Flow through to AC
Quota = 60% per annum not 60% per PIT course.Art Garfunkel wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:07 pm How come there has been zero Jazz pilots in the last two New Hire classes at AC?
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Re: Flow through to AC
Any reserved seniority slots?rudder wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:19 pmQuota = 60% per annum not 60% per PIT course.Art Garfunkel wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:07 pm How come there has been zero Jazz pilots in the last two New Hire classes at AC?
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Re: Flow through to AC
Under what premise? If they don't meet the yearly quota then I could see a grievance.Art Garfunkel wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:28 pmAny reserved seniority slots?rudder wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:19 pmQuota = 60% per annum not 60% per PIT course.Art Garfunkel wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:07 pm How come there has been zero Jazz pilots in the last two New Hire classes at AC?
Re: Flow through to AC
Last I checked Air Canada and Jazz were separate employers so who exactly would this grievance be filed with?
Re: Flow through to AC
Jazz. They'll likely just pay up instead of losing enough employees that it hurts their operation.
Re: Flow through to AC
No. Only applied to PIT course deferrals during PML 1.0Art Garfunkel wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:28 pmAny reserved seniority slots?rudder wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:19 pmQuota = 60% per annum not 60% per PIT course.Art Garfunkel wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:07 pm How come there has been zero Jazz pilots in the last two New Hire classes at AC?
Re: Flow through to AC
If AC doesn’t make the hiring quota from Jazz in a year I think all that happens is they have to make it up the next year; i.e 2022 say they only hire 55% from Jazz then 2023 they would hire 65% from Jazz. That’s what I’ve heard at least.
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Re: Flow through to AC
And what if they can’t make it up the next year? Would it be at some point grieved?
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Re: Flow through to AC
If things continue going the way they are, Jazz goes to AC and says they can’t afford to lose that many pilots, and they’ll either nullify the current PML agreement, or more likely modify it to a percentage more beneficial to jazz. AC has no shortage of OTS applicants, so they’d fare just fine.kiaszceski wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:18 pmAnd what if they can’t make it up the next year? Would it be at some point grieved?
There’s nothing to “grieve”. If the agreement is between AC and Jazz, ALPA doesn’t have a say in what’s done.
Re: Flow through to AC
Ahhh...the ole' Encore--->Westjet flow three-card monte trick.PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:08 pmIf things continue going the way they are, Jazz goes to AC and says they can’t afford to lose that many pilots, and they’ll either nullify the current PML agreement, or more likely modify it to a percentage more beneficial to jazz. AC has no shortage of OTS applicants, so they’d fare just fine.kiaszceski wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:18 pmAnd what if they can’t make it up the next year? Would it be at some point grieved?
There’s nothing to “grieve”. If the agreement is between AC and Jazz, ALPA doesn’t have a say in what’s done.
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Re: Flow through to AC
But AC needs Jazz for their regional flying, at least for now, and jazz is reducing their tails, that should help keep the same %?PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:08 pmIf things continue going the way they are, Jazz goes to AC and says they can’t afford to lose that many pilots, and they’ll either nullify the current PML agreement, or more likely modify it to a percentage more beneficial to jazz. AC has no shortage of OTS applicants, so they’d fare just fine.kiaszceski wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:18 pmAnd what if they can’t make it up the next year? Would it be at some point grieved?
There’s nothing to “grieve”. If the agreement is between AC and Jazz, ALPA doesn’t have a say in what’s done.
Strange, this, indeed, reminds me of the Encore-WestJet issue…
So if the PML is modified Jazz might not be as “attractive” for 250hrs pilots.
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Re: Flow through to AC
AC doesn’t “need” Jazz for anything.kiaszceski wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:14 pmBut AC needs Jazz for their regional flying, at least for now, and jazz is reducing their tails, that should help keep the same %?PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:08 pmIf things continue going the way they are, Jazz goes to AC and says they can’t afford to lose that many pilots, and they’ll either nullify the current PML agreement, or more likely modify it to a percentage more beneficial to jazz. AC has no shortage of OTS applicants, so they’d fare just fine.kiaszceski wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:18 pm
And what if they can’t make it up the next year? Would it be at some point grieved?
There’s nothing to “grieve”. If the agreement is between AC and Jazz, ALPA doesn’t have a say in what’s done.
Strange, this, indeed, reminds me of the Encore-WestJet issue…
So if the PML is modified Jazz might not be as “attractive” for 250hrs pilots.
Jazz staffing issues are not an AC problem, they’re a Jazz problem. If Jazz is unable to fulfill their end of the CPA, AC will be able to collect huge penalties from JZA. So far this hasn’t happened, and like I said above, I suspect Jazz will propose some modification to the PML to keep their head above water, in which case it’s no problem for AC, as they have plenty of OTS resumes at this time.
Re: Flow through to AC
AC ‘needs’ Jazz to perform hundreds of flights per day under the Express brand. AC is so invested in that particular outcome it bought 10% of the Jazz parent company - Chorus Aviation. In order to meet that obligation, Jazz needs pilots. The main reason that pilots apply to Jazz is the hiring opportunity at AC via the current 60% quota.PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:25 pm
AC doesn’t “need” Jazz for anything.
Jazz staffing issues are not an AC problem, they’re a Jazz problem. If Jazz is unable to fulfill their end of the CPA, AC will be able to collect huge penalties from JZA. So far this hasn’t happened, and like I said above, I suspect Jazz will propose some modification to the PML to keep their head above water, in which case it’s no problem for AC, as they have plenty of OTS resumes at this time.
So, if you dilute the 60% or eliminate it all together it will present huge hurdles for Jazz to attract pilots, particularly upgradeable pilots. So your suggestion that things are not interconnected is not based on reality. If you pull one straw, it will have cascading consequences.
If nothing else, the post COVID boom in required pilots (it will be approximately 1600 for AC and Jazz combined over the next 18-24 months) has simply exposed that status quo is not ideal. But it is the deal until the parties agree to either improve it or replace it, the operative word being ‘agree’.
Re: Flow through to AC
That. Anyone who disagrees I assume has skin in the game and carries a bias.PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:25 pm I suspect Jazz will propose some modification to the PML to keep their head above water
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Re: Flow through to AC
Am I wrong that this os an agreement between AC, JAZZ and ALPA?
Pilots will get something out of the deal if it gets modified. Anyway, just like rudder pointed out, that PML is one of the main reason upgradable pilots apply to Jazz post-covid. This "shortage" is to the advantage of Jazz pilots...
Pilots will get something out of the deal if it gets modified. Anyway, just like rudder pointed out, that PML is one of the main reason upgradable pilots apply to Jazz post-covid. This "shortage" is to the advantage of Jazz pilots...
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Re: Flow through to AC
I reiterate, Jazz staffing is not an AC problem. It's a Jazz problem. It's not AC's responsibility to staff an operation that's not theirs.rudder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:01 pmAC ‘needs’ Jazz to perform hundreds of flights per day under the Express brand. AC is so invested in that particular outcome it bought 10% of the Jazz parent company - Chorus Aviation. In order to meet that obligation, Jazz needs pilots. The main reason that pilots apply to Jazz is the hiring opportunity at AC via the current 60% quota.PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:25 pm
AC doesn’t “need” Jazz for anything.
Jazz staffing issues are not an AC problem, they’re a Jazz problem. If Jazz is unable to fulfill their end of the CPA, AC will be able to collect huge penalties from JZA. So far this hasn’t happened, and like I said above, I suspect Jazz will propose some modification to the PML to keep their head above water, in which case it’s no problem for AC, as they have plenty of OTS resumes at this time.
So, if you dilute the 60% or eliminate it all together it will present huge hurdles for Jazz to attract pilots, particularly upgradeable pilots. So your suggestion that things are not interconnected is not based on reality. If you pull one straw, it will have cascading consequences.
If nothing else, the post COVID boom in required pilots (it will be approximately 1600 for AC and Jazz combined over the next 18-24 months) has simply exposed that status quo is not ideal. But it is the deal until the parties agree to either improve it or replace it, the operative word being ‘agree’.
Even without the 60%, Jazz would still have plenty of applicants who want to move up from something bigger than a King Air. They're already bumping up against the DEC wall, that will likely attract lots of candidates from smaller operators.
Your straw(man?) argument is invalid as long as AC still has stacks of OTS resumes they can pull from to fill their ground schools. When those dry up, only then will they NEED Jazz to supply them with pilots.
Re: Flow through to AC
Circular argument.PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:54 amI reiterate, Jazz staffing is not an AC problem. It's a Jazz problem. It's not AC's responsibility to staff an operation that's not theirs.rudder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:01 pmAC ‘needs’ Jazz to perform hundreds of flights per day under the Express brand. AC is so invested in that particular outcome it bought 10% of the Jazz parent company - Chorus Aviation. In order to meet that obligation, Jazz needs pilots. The main reason that pilots apply to Jazz is the hiring opportunity at AC via the current 60% quota.PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:25 pm
AC doesn’t “need” Jazz for anything.
Jazz staffing issues are not an AC problem, they’re a Jazz problem. If Jazz is unable to fulfill their end of the CPA, AC will be able to collect huge penalties from JZA. So far this hasn’t happened, and like I said above, I suspect Jazz will propose some modification to the PML to keep their head above water, in which case it’s no problem for AC, as they have plenty of OTS resumes at this time.
So, if you dilute the 60% or eliminate it all together it will present huge hurdles for Jazz to attract pilots, particularly upgradeable pilots. So your suggestion that things are not interconnected is not based on reality. If you pull one straw, it will have cascading consequences.
If nothing else, the post COVID boom in required pilots (it will be approximately 1600 for AC and Jazz combined over the next 18-24 months) has simply exposed that status quo is not ideal. But it is the deal until the parties agree to either improve it or replace it, the operative word being ‘agree’.
Even without the 60%, Jazz would still have plenty of applicants who want to move up from something bigger than a King Air. They're already bumping up against the DEC wall, that will likely attract lots of candidates from smaller operators.
Your straw(man?) argument is invalid as long as AC still has stacks of OTS resumes they can pull from to fill their ground schools. When those dry up, only then will they NEED Jazz to supply them with pilots.
Regardless, there is an agreement in place. It is validated by the ALPA/Jazz CBA and the CHR/AC CPA. What you don’t seem to be acknowledging is that AC bought a CPA modification and extension on very favourable terms based on the ALPA CBA which included the preferred interview and hiring agreement.
Many wish it was not in place. But it is.
Jazz will supply 60% of AC new-hires until there are no more Jazz pilots that meet the AC hiring minimum qualifications (subject to a maximum 10% rejection rate).
Last edited by rudder on Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Flow through to AC
It’s odd that the rejection rate is now 10% when before it used to be much higher as in the 30% range. Maybe some of us old dogs should apply again and be some of the 10%ers.
Let’s Go Brandon