Flow through to AC

[Art Garfunkel]

How come there has been zero Jazz pilots in the last two New Hire classes at AC?

[RoAF-Mig21]

How come there has been zero Jazz pilots in the last two New Hire classes at AC?

I think AC is holding off hiring from Jazz for the summer. Don't quote me, I'm not 100% sure. It'll start up again.

[rudder]

How come there has been zero Jazz pilots in the last two New Hire classes at AC?

Quota = 60% per annum not 60% per PIT course.

[Art Garfunkel]

How come there has been zero Jazz pilots in the last two New Hire classes at AC?

Quota = 60% per annum not 60% per PIT course.

Any reserved seniority slots?

[safetyfirst123]

How come there has been zero Jazz pilots in the last two New Hire classes at AC?

Quota = 60% per annum not 60% per PIT course.

Any reserved seniority slots?

Under what premise? If they don't meet the yearly quota then I could see a grievance.

[up on one]

Last I checked Air Canada and Jazz were separate employers so who exactly would this grievance be filed with?

[FL030]

Last I checked Air Canada and Jazz were separate employers so who exactly would this grievance be filed with?

Jazz. They'll likely just pay up instead of losing enough employees that it hurts their operation.

[rudder]

How come there has been zero Jazz pilots in the last two New Hire classes at AC?

Quota = 60% per annum not 60% per PIT course.

Any reserved seniority slots?

No. Only applied to PIT course deferrals during PML 1.0

[goleafsgo]

If AC doesn’t make the hiring quota from Jazz in a year I think all that happens is they have to make it up the next year; i.e 2022 say they only hire 55% from Jazz then 2023 they would hire 65% from Jazz. That’s what I’ve heard at least.

[kiaszceski]

If AC doesn’t make the hiring quota from Jazz in a year I think all that happens is they have to make it up the next year; i.e 2022 say they only hire 55% from Jazz then 2023 they would hire 65% from Jazz. That’s what I’ve heard at least.

And what if they can’t make it up the next year? Would it be at some point grieved?

[PostmasterGeneral]

If AC doesn’t make the hiring quota from Jazz in a year I think all that happens is they have to make it up the next year; i.e 2022 say they only hire 55% from Jazz then 2023 they would hire 65% from Jazz. That’s what I’ve heard at least.

And what if they can’t make it up the next year? Would it be at some point grieved?

If things continue going the way they are, Jazz goes to AC and says they can’t afford to lose that many pilots, and they’ll either nullify the current PML agreement, or more likely modify it to a percentage more beneficial to jazz. AC has no shortage of OTS applicants, so they’d fare just fine.

There’s nothing to “grieve”. If the agreement is between AC and Jazz, ALPA doesn’t have a say in what’s done.

[dhc#]

If AC doesn’t make the hiring quota from Jazz in a year I think all that happens is they have to make it up the next year; i.e 2022 say they only hire 55% from Jazz then 2023 they would hire 65% from Jazz. That’s what I’ve heard at least.

And what if they can’t make it up the next year? Would it be at some point grieved?

If things continue going the way they are, Jazz goes to AC and says they can’t afford to lose that many pilots, and they’ll either nullify the current PML agreement, or more likely modify it to a percentage more beneficial to jazz. AC has no shortage of OTS applicants, so they’d fare just fine.

There’s nothing to “grieve”. If the agreement is between AC and Jazz, ALPA doesn’t have a say in what’s done.

Ahhh...the ole' Encore--->Westjet flow three-card monte trick.

[kiaszceski]

If AC doesn’t make the hiring quota from Jazz in a year I think all that happens is they have to make it up the next year; i.e 2022 say they only hire 55% from Jazz then 2023 they would hire 65% from Jazz. That’s what I’ve heard at least.

And what if they can’t make it up the next year? Would it be at some point grieved?

If things continue going the way they are, Jazz goes to AC and says they can’t afford to lose that many pilots, and they’ll either nullify the current PML agreement, or more likely modify it to a percentage more beneficial to jazz. AC has no shortage of OTS applicants, so they’d fare just fine.

There’s nothing to “grieve”. If the agreement is between AC and Jazz, ALPA doesn’t have a say in what’s done.

But AC needs Jazz for their regional flying, at least for now, and jazz is reducing their tails, that should help keep the same %?
Strange, this, indeed, reminds me of the Encore-WestJet issue…
So if the PML is modified Jazz might not be as “attractive” for 250hrs pilots.

[PostmasterGeneral]

And what if they can’t make it up the next year? Would it be at some point grieved?

If things continue going the way they are, Jazz goes to AC and says they can’t afford to lose that many pilots, and they’ll either nullify the current PML agreement, or more likely modify it to a percentage more beneficial to jazz. AC has no shortage of OTS applicants, so they’d fare just fine.

There’s nothing to “grieve”. If the agreement is between AC and Jazz, ALPA doesn’t have a say in what’s done.

But AC needs Jazz for their regional flying, at least for now, and jazz is reducing their tails, that should help keep the same %?
Strange, this, indeed, reminds me of the Encore-WestJet issue…
So if the PML is modified Jazz might not be as “attractive” for 250hrs pilots.

AC doesn’t “need” Jazz for anything.
Jazz staffing issues are not an AC problem, they’re a Jazz problem. If Jazz is unable to fulfill their end of the CPA, AC will be able to collect huge penalties from JZA. So far this hasn’t happened, and like I said above, I suspect Jazz will propose some modification to the PML to keep their head above water, in which case it’s no problem for AC, as they have plenty of OTS resumes at this time.

[rudder]

AC doesn’t “need” Jazz for anything.
Jazz staffing issues are not an AC problem, they’re a Jazz problem. If Jazz is unable to fulfill their end of the CPA, AC will be able to collect huge penalties from JZA. So far this hasn’t happened, and like I said above, I suspect Jazz will propose some modification to the PML to keep their head above water, in which case it’s no problem for AC, as they have plenty of OTS resumes at this time.

AC ‘needs’ Jazz to perform hundreds of flights per day under the Express brand. AC is so invested in that particular outcome it bought 10% of the Jazz parent company - Chorus Aviation. In order to meet that obligation, Jazz needs pilots. The main reason that pilots apply to Jazz is the hiring opportunity at AC via the current 60% quota.

So, if you dilute the 60% or eliminate it all together it will present huge hurdles for Jazz to attract pilots, particularly upgradeable pilots. So your suggestion that things are not interconnected is not based on reality. If you pull one straw, it will have cascading consequences.

If nothing else, the post COVID boom in required pilots (it will be approximately 1600 for AC and Jazz combined over the next 18-24 months) has simply exposed that status quo is not ideal. But it is the deal until the parties agree to either improve it or replace it, the operative word being ‘agree’.

[lownslow]

I suspect Jazz will propose some modification to the PML to keep their head above water

That. Anyone who disagrees I assume has skin in the game and carries a bias.

[the-minister31]

Am I wrong that this os an agreement between AC, JAZZ and ALPA?

Pilots will get something out of the deal if it gets modified. Anyway, just like rudder pointed out, that PML is one of the main reason upgradable pilots apply to Jazz post-covid. This "shortage" is to the advantage of Jazz pilots...

[PostmasterGeneral]

AC doesn’t “need” Jazz for anything.
Jazz staffing issues are not an AC problem, they’re a Jazz problem. If Jazz is unable to fulfill their end of the CPA, AC will be able to collect huge penalties from JZA. So far this hasn’t happened, and like I said above, I suspect Jazz will propose some modification to the PML to keep their head above water, in which case it’s no problem for AC, as they have plenty of OTS resumes at this time.

AC ‘needs’ Jazz to perform hundreds of flights per day under the Express brand. AC is so invested in that particular outcome it bought 10% of the Jazz parent company - Chorus Aviation. In order to meet that obligation, Jazz needs pilots. The main reason that pilots apply to Jazz is the hiring opportunity at AC via the current 60% quota.

So, if you dilute the 60% or eliminate it all together it will present huge hurdles for Jazz to attract pilots, particularly upgradeable pilots. So your suggestion that things are not interconnected is not based on reality. If you pull one straw, it will have cascading consequences.

If nothing else, the post COVID boom in required pilots (it will be approximately 1600 for AC and Jazz combined over the next 18-24 months) has simply exposed that status quo is not ideal. But it is the deal until the parties agree to either improve it or replace it, the operative word being ‘agree’.

I reiterate, Jazz staffing is not an AC problem. It's a Jazz problem. It's not AC's responsibility to staff an operation that's not theirs.

Even without the 60%, Jazz would still have plenty of applicants who want to move up from something bigger than a King Air. They're already bumping up against the DEC wall, that will likely attract lots of candidates from smaller operators.

Your straw(man?) argument is invalid as long as AC still has stacks of OTS resumes they can pull from to fill their ground schools. When those dry up, only then will they NEED Jazz to supply them with pilots.

[rudder]

AC doesn’t “need” Jazz for anything.
Jazz staffing issues are not an AC problem, they’re a Jazz problem. If Jazz is unable to fulfill their end of the CPA, AC will be able to collect huge penalties from JZA. So far this hasn’t happened, and like I said above, I suspect Jazz will propose some modification to the PML to keep their head above water, in which case it’s no problem for AC, as they have plenty of OTS resumes at this time.

AC ‘needs’ Jazz to perform hundreds of flights per day under the Express brand. AC is so invested in that particular outcome it bought 10% of the Jazz parent company - Chorus Aviation. In order to meet that obligation, Jazz needs pilots. The main reason that pilots apply to Jazz is the hiring opportunity at AC via the current 60% quota.

So, if you dilute the 60% or eliminate it all together it will present huge hurdles for Jazz to attract pilots, particularly upgradeable pilots. So your suggestion that things are not interconnected is not based on reality. If you pull one straw, it will have cascading consequences.

If nothing else, the post COVID boom in required pilots (it will be approximately 1600 for AC and Jazz combined over the next 18-24 months) has simply exposed that status quo is not ideal. But it is the deal until the parties agree to either improve it or replace it, the operative word being ‘agree’.

I reiterate, Jazz staffing is not an AC problem. It's a Jazz problem. It's not AC's responsibility to staff an operation that's not theirs.

Even without the 60%, Jazz would still have plenty of applicants who want to move up from something bigger than a King Air. They're already bumping up against the DEC wall, that will likely attract lots of candidates from smaller operators.

Your straw(man?) argument is invalid as long as AC still has stacks of OTS resumes they can pull from to fill their ground schools. When those dry up, only then will they NEED Jazz to supply them with pilots.

Circular argument.

Regardless, there is an agreement in place. It is validated by the ALPA/Jazz CBA and the CHR/AC CPA. What you don’t seem to be acknowledging is that AC bought a CPA modification and extension on very favourable terms based on the ALPA CBA which included the preferred interview and hiring agreement.

Many wish it was not in place. But it is.

Jazz will supply 60% of AC new-hires until there are no more Jazz pilots that meet the AC hiring minimum qualifications (subject to a maximum 10% rejection rate).

[Inverted2]

It’s odd that the rejection rate is now 10% when before it used to be much higher as in the 30% range. Maybe some of us old dogs should apply again and be some of the 10%ers.