Cost of operating a mid-size business jet

[globaltrainer]

hi,

What is the cost of a hangar space in YUL nowadays for a Challenger604/605 ? PM me if reluctant to share those numbers.

tx

GT

[schnitzel2k3]

Not knowing who you are, my initial reaction is, if you need to ask on a public forum, you probably aren't in a position to really need that information. I'm guessing this is curiosity and happy to provide you with what I know.

I haven't called around Montreal to see - but I know for a fact Toronto's newest hangar is about $45-51 sq/ft depending who you are. North end is about half that.

It's all over subscribed - I imagine Montreal with less space is in a similar pickle.

A CL65 taking up ~4485 sq.ft is going to cost you somewhere between 100-200k a year in Canada for heated hangar space IN A MAJOR HUB.

If this is serious, a quick call to Skyservice, Execaire or Signature/Starlink will provide you with all the information you require. If your jet isn't on a ticket yet, they may be able to provide better packaging to get the jet flyable under 604/704 and hangar it.

Bonne chance.

[CL-Skadoo!]

First off, YUL (much like yyz) is becoming quite inhospitable to GA these days. Any high net-worth individual that can place a dollar amount on their time would be wise to at least examine operations at a nearby satellite airport.

Going 604 is going to be a bit cost prohibitive to start unless you can get yourself a few Swiss Army Knife type people that perform multiple roles and run a polished private flight department, otherwise managed is unfortunately your best option.

[schnitzel2k3]

First off, YUL (much like yyz) is becoming quite inhospitable to GA these days. Any high net-worth individual that can place a dollar amount on their time would be wise to at least examine operations at a nearby satellite airport.

It's funny how stubborn some owners are when it comes to this. It's like a status symbol to dump 200k+ on a hangar per annum in Toronto, but then never give your pilots a raise or bring them up to a more nationalized amount, despite owning a 30+ million dollar jet. With the current training delays, one would be incredibly wise to take care of your flight crew or fear losing access to your jet for a year or 2 until you can find and retrain a new crew. That's something management companies haven't begun discussing with owners for fear of their response. It's a very scary situation right now to be an owner with flight crew mulling new opportunities.

Kitchener is getting a lot more action, which is nice to see, but I'm surprised Hamilton is still as sleepy as it is with all the money on the westend of the GTA. East end is totally under served with Oshawa and Buttonville's corpse. GTAA likes to keep the anchors on any new projects that may decrease their profit, but god forbid they accomodate GA to a reasonable level.

I heard through the grapevine a large investment group wanted to turn Brampton into the next Teterboro. Hopefully they get some actual, proper advice and not the current yes men that like to stick their noses into these projects, so that the project will have a chance at being usable. Burlington is another sleepy airport that has similar potential.

[digits_]

With the current training delays, one would be incredibly wise to take care of your flight crew or fear losing access to your jet for a year or 2 until you can find and retrain a new crew.

If operators run into this issue, can't they just train in the airplane? It might be expensive, but if it avoids a 2 year delay...?

[schnitzel2k3]

With the current training delays, one would be incredibly wise to take care of your flight crew or fear losing access to your jet for a year or 2 until you can find and retrain a new crew.

If operators run into this issue, can't they just train in the airplane? It might be expensive, but if it avoids a 2 year delay...?

While possible, it's complicated to get this approved, and would affect the operators ratings and insurance, not to mention the quality of the flight crew member.

If bizav wasn't already risky enough, adding in an element of non standarzied training, and accountability outside of a simulator environment would likely leave a lot of flight crew in poor condition should a true emergency happen.

I have done both in aircraft and sim, and while FSI or CAE may be over the top, I wouldn't trade the lessons and discussions I've picked up during sim, ever. In aircraft leaves so much to be desired, and gives you a barebones handling of any emergency situation, not to mention risks you for a real life red screen if you push the situation too far with a poor instructor.

[JHR]

These management companies are talking about adding pilots to comply with the new duty regs. Where will they find anyone? Hope they booked sim training long ago!

[schnitzel2k3]

Between sim slot availability due to the massive exodus of trainers heading into airlines, and the decreasing availability of QUALITY flight crew on either side of the border, it's nothing short of interesting times ahead.

Add into the mix the new-ish operational regulations that Sulako was discussing and flight crews should have decent ground to justify some decent WAWCON growth.

[780Pilot]

Kitchener is getting a lot more action, which is nice to see, but I'm surprised Hamilton is still as sleepy as it is with all the money on the westend of the GTA. East end is totally under served with Oshawa and Buttonville's corpse. GTAA likes to keep the anchors on any new projects that may decrease their profit, but god forbid they accomodate GA to a reasonable level.

I heard through the grapevine a large investment group wanted to turn Brampton into the next Teterboro. Hopefully they get some actual, proper advice and not the current yes men that like to stick their noses into these projects, so that the project will have a chance at being usable. Burlington is another sleepy airport that has similar potential.

It would be really interesting to see Brampton go to the big leagues airport wise. I get the feeling Hamilton is happy just being Cargojets personal airport and nothing more.

[DanWEC]

Kitchener is getting a lot more action, which is nice to see, but I'm surprised Hamilton is still as sleepy as it is with all the money on the westend of the GTA. East end is totally under served with Oshawa and Buttonville's corpse. GTAA likes to keep the anchors on any new projects that may decrease their profit, but god forbid they accomodate GA to a reasonable level.

I heard through the grapevine a large investment group wanted to turn Brampton into the next Teterboro. Hopefully they get some actual, proper advice and not the current yes men that like to stick their noses into these projects, so that the project will have a chance at being usable. Burlington is another sleepy airport that has similar potential.

It would be really interesting to see Brampton go to the big leagues airport wise. I get the feeling Hamilton is happy just being Cargojets personal airport and nothing more.

I don't think we'll see a major airport, or a major expansion and tier upgrade of an existing airport, in our lifetimes. Burlington, Brampton, Oshawa, they'll all eventually succumb to the Buttonville fate. Lower the Pickering lands into that same grave as well. As much as we need airport capacity in this cold, massive country, there is a very different thought process in the capital.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

First off, YUL (much like yyz) is becoming quite inhospitable to GA these days. Any high net-worth individual that can place a dollar amount on their time would be wise to at least examine operations at a nearby satellite airport.

It's funny how stubborn some owners are when it comes to this. It's like a status symbol to dump 200k+ on a hangar per annum in Toronto, but then never give your pilots a raise or bring them up to a more nationalized amount, despite owning a 30+ million dollar jet. With the current training delays, one would be incredibly wise to take care of your flight crew or fear losing access to your jet for a year or 2 until you can find and retrain a new crew. That's something management companies haven't begun discussing with owners for fear of their response. It's a very scary situation right now to be an owner with flight crew mulling new opportunities.

Kitchener is getting a lot more action, which is nice to see, but I'm surprised Hamilton is still as sleepy as it is with all the money on the westend of the GTA. East end is totally under served with Oshawa and Buttonville's corpse. GTAA likes to keep the anchors on any new projects that may decrease their profit, but god forbid they accomodate GA to a reasonable level.

I heard through the grapevine a large investment group wanted to turn Brampton into the next Teterboro. Hopefully they get some actual, proper advice and not the current yes men that like to stick their noses into these projects, so that the project will have a chance at being usable. Burlington is another sleepy airport that has similar potential.

A status symbol to dump 200k into parking their machines in hangars in the north end that haven’t been maintained in 25+ years. Lots of internal politics with the gta on that end of the property. I think GA will diminish slowly in yyz but not for many many years