I disagree. If enough people waste Air Canada’s time and resources and at the end of the process say no because the pay is too low it would send a message across.rooster wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:35 amNot really. You knew the first time you applied what the salary was going to be and what type of flying you'd expect. You couldn't have evaluated finances and lifestyle at the time of application? In either case, you went ahead and did it again 10 years later and decided again the pay and flying wasn't for you? Me thinks AC dodged one here.
I agree the flat pay is crap at Air Canada. It's downright garbage. But people, for god's sake don't be applying places if you don't think it's for you!!! That ain't rocket science
To lighten up a bit, I do hope things worked out for you in the end JHR
Rejecting a Job offer
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: Rejecting a Job offer
Re: Rejecting a Job offer
Does anyone actually think the HR people give 2 seconds thought to your life circumstance or your beliefs? Turn them down and they just move on.
Right or wrong you’re just flexing on yourself. The way it is.
Right or wrong you’re just flexing on yourself. The way it is.
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Re: Rejecting a Job offer
They payscale matrixes are your best bet for non biased information and run it at 75-80 hours a month. AC pilots don't have much in the way of deductions, union dues 1% (although likely to go up to at least 1.5% by the end of the year. Pension contributions are 7.5% employee paid when above 5 years of service for anyone not on the DB pension. The rest just throw into any provincial tax calculator for provincial/federal taxes, CPP, and EI.DanWEC wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:56 pm Personally, I'd really like to see tangible examples of 5-7 year FO pay NB or WB, and 10 year left seat actual gross or actual take-home. There's so much misinformation. Not looking for best case possibilities or outliers but rather conservative, average income. Yes, the payscale matrixes are there but there's a lot of lateral ambiguity. PM if you'd like, thanks.
Also, all training (when not on a course) is paid outside of the monthly flying. With 6-8 training events a year @4:25 pay, you'd add between 26:30-35:20 a year in pay. It would be simpler to run the monthly hourly rates at 77.5 hours to 82.5 hours to show this difference.
737 FO rates for 5 year is119/hr (day night average) and 7 year is 128.5/hr. The other numbers presented in the WJA contract comparison (June 2022) are accurate.
You asked for non outliers and then got a massive outlier for 777 FO pay. While some are no doubt pulling in that much, the converative answer is not nearly the same. Hourly rates on 777 (12 year) FO is 204/hr. Which is more like 190k-205k a year.
Now obviously OT is available and can be lucrative, but it's a personal decision. So be honest about how much OT you expect to do, then work the hourly rates into your expected position. OT is typically 50% premium, but an MOA was signed giving most OT circumstances a 100% until the end of 2024. Also bear in mind that OT on the WB will be much harder to come by with the new duty rules as its nearly impossible to pick up another overseas pairing a month.
Per Diems can range widely, senior NB captains can take home a grand total of 0$ in per diems for the month. International flights have boarded meals for flight crew and no per diem is paid. If your entire month is Carribean turns, you won't get any per diems. The per diem information in the WJA contract comparison is accurate. Averages would be about 8k a year on the NB and 12k a year on the WB.
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Re: Rejecting a Job offer
'Flexing on yourself' - also called, thinking about ones family, standing by ones beliefs, having self respect, and joining the unfortunate minority who believe you could do much better, for not just yourselves, but the industry you torched as you said 'Sure, one day I'll be a decently paid Air Canada pilot, but first I'm going to make sure I have trouble supporting my family for the next 4 years, particularly in the event of another recession or outbreak or continue living with my parents until I get that sweet upgrade, so I can feel what its like to really be BOTL'.
By refusing to accept the offer, we ARE sending a message that experienced aviators are very willing to refuse the conditions set by ACPA. Just because AC and ACPA are too big, ignorant and protected to hear that message doesn't mean it isn't being transmitted.
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Re: Rejecting a Job offer
You dip$hits that want to reject a job offer are making a grave mistake!! Tabarnac
Flight ops won't give a rat$ a$$ about you avocado toast eating whiners that won't sign on to pay your dues after paying your dues. The company only budgets so much for pilots and I believe them so we had to choose and we ain't gonna waste time or money on the unborn! This was a group move for solidarity & Blake agrees!! Look how unified we are now. The junior peon pilots love me & the boyz
I have a great relationship with the management and it's awesome here just hate it when they stick me in a middle seat. Middle seats are for crummy Commuters or other bottom of the barrel of pilots. Tabarnac!!!
Flight ops won't give a rat$ a$$ about you avocado toast eating whiners that won't sign on to pay your dues after paying your dues. The company only budgets so much for pilots and I believe them so we had to choose and we ain't gonna waste time or money on the unborn! This was a group move for solidarity & Blake agrees!! Look how unified we are now. The junior peon pilots love me & the boyz
I have a great relationship with the management and it's awesome here just hate it when they stick me in a middle seat. Middle seats are for crummy Commuters or other bottom of the barrel of pilots. Tabarnac!!!
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Re: Rejecting a Job offer
https://pay-rate-calculator.herokuapp.com/DanWEC wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:56 pm Personally, I'd really like to see tangible examples of 5-7 year FO pay NB or WB, and 10 year left seat actual gross or actual take-home. There's so much misinformation. Not looking for best case possibilities or outliers but rather conservative, average income. Yes, the payscale matrixes are there but there's a lot of lateral ambiguity. PM if you'd like, thanks.
Re: Rejecting a Job offer
I like this approach. Show them you are a great hire; make them want you. Then laugh at their ridiculous offer. If they want a valuable employee like yourself, they have to pay for it. They pay bananas, they get monkeys. Enough people do this and things will change.
Re: Rejecting a Job offer
AC Q2 2022 Financial Results Q&A:
Savanthi Syth
That's helpful. And if I might ask, secondly, just have you seen any kind of pilots leaving in a bigger way from Air Canada to the U.S. kind of using that EB-2 employment visa? I was just kind of curious, I know, there's no risk of having the same issues that you're having in the U.S., but I was wondering if there was any risk of some of the issues here being spilling over to Canada?
Michael Rousseau
Savi, good morning, it's Mike. No, we're not seeing any attrition of our pilot base to U.S. or any other country. We still are an unbelievably attractive employer for pilots. And so we do not face the challenges, some of the U.S. carriers or other carriers around the world facing.
Savanthi Syth
That's helpful. And if I might ask, secondly, just have you seen any kind of pilots leaving in a bigger way from Air Canada to the U.S. kind of using that EB-2 employment visa? I was just kind of curious, I know, there's no risk of having the same issues that you're having in the U.S., but I was wondering if there was any risk of some of the issues here being spilling over to Canada?
Michael Rousseau
Savi, good morning, it's Mike. No, we're not seeing any attrition of our pilot base to U.S. or any other country. We still are an unbelievably attractive employer for pilots. And so we do not face the challenges, some of the U.S. carriers or other carriers around the world facing.
Re: Rejecting a Job offer
I had less than 2000 hours and probably 400 hours multi engine between a Navajo and a king air and I turned down Air Canada back in 2013. It was only a year later I really had my regrets, today I still day I still do.
Now I have 8000 hours with about 5000 hours jet half of that PIC and I just re-applied. Mind you I have an excellent pension here that I believe compares to Air Canada. I still wish I could get on.
Now I have 8000 hours with about 5000 hours jet half of that PIC and I just re-applied. Mind you I have an excellent pension here that I believe compares to Air Canada. I still wish I could get on.
Re: Rejecting a Job offer
I think you're missing a screw or two here. Ok, respectfully, why lose all that seniority to start again? You say you have a comparable pension and a good amount of experience, so I wonder, why give up what likely is a schedule you have earned and a level of pay that is satisfactory just to end up at the bottom of a list and on reserve. Do what makes you happy of course but man...think it through very carefully.
Re: Rejecting a Job offer
You’re an idiotYULCompanyManDan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 3:18 pm You dip$hits that want to reject a job offer are making a grave mistake!! Tabarnac
Flight ops won't give a rat$ a$$ about you avocado toast eating whiners that won't sign on to pay your dues after paying your dues. The company only budgets so much for pilots and I believe them so we had to choose and we ain't gonna waste time or money on the unborn! This was a group move for solidarity & Blake agrees!! Look how unified we are now. The junior peon pilots love me & the boyz
I have a great relationship with the management and it's awesome here just hate it when they stick me in a middle seat. Middle seats are for crummy Commuters or other bottom of the barrel of pilots. Tabarnac!!!
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Re: Rejecting a Job offer
I guess it probably wouldn’t be in his favour to tell investors the whole truth. I either get from his comment that AC management are sticking their heads in the sand or they are actively assessing the hiring situation and the threat of US hiring.rudder wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:42 pm AC Q2 2022 Financial Results Q&A:
Savanthi Syth
That's helpful. And if I might ask, secondly, just have you seen any kind of pilots leaving in a bigger way from Air Canada to the U.S. kind of using that EB-2 employment visa? I was just kind of curious, I know, there's no risk of having the same issues that you're having in the U.S., but I was wondering if there was any risk of some of the issues here being spilling over to Canada?
Michael Rousseau
Savi, good morning, it's Mike. No, we're not seeing any attrition of our pilot base to U.S. or any other country. We still are an unbelievably attractive employer for pilots. And so we do not face the challenges, some of the U.S. carriers or other carriers around the world facing.
Re: Rejecting a Job offer
Just some facts for the investors:
-“we are not seeing any pilot attrition…”
-“we didn’t layoff any pilots”
-“I don’t need to speak French to live and work in Montreal”
-“we are not seeing any pilot attrition…”
-“we didn’t layoff any pilots”
-“I don’t need to speak French to live and work in Montreal”
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Re: Rejecting a Job offer
A more accurate statement from the CEO would have been: "We know a lot of our pilots are interested in leaving and working in the US. But they can't because they have no legal right to live and work there. So unless and until that changes, we're not worried about it."canadian_aviator_4 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 11, 2022 9:41 am
I guess it probably wouldn’t be in his favour to tell investors the whole truth. I either get from his comment that AC management are sticking their heads in the sand or they are actively assessing the hiring situation and the threat of US hiring.
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Re: Rejecting a Job offer
Zero chance they'd ever say that because AC executive actually think everything is fine. And this would be them admitting they know it's not.Protonpilot wrote: ↑Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:46 amA more accurate statement from the CEO would have been: "We know a lot of our pilots are interested in leaving and working in the US. But they can't because they have no legal right to live and work there. So unless and until that changes, we're not worried about it."canadian_aviator_4 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 11, 2022 9:41 am
I guess it probably wouldn’t be in his favour to tell investors the whole truth. I either get from his comment that AC management are sticking their heads in the sand or they are actively assessing the hiring situation and the threat of US hiring.
Also the follow up question would probably be "why do your pilots want to leave, what do we not know as investors?"
That is not a conversation any executive especially our Dear Leader Monsieur Rousseau.
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Re: Rejecting a Job offer
If you don't see the humour in this post, I have bad news for you...WF9F wrote: ↑Sun Sep 11, 2022 9:32 amYou’re an idiotYULCompanyManDan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 3:18 pm You dip$hits that want to reject a job offer are making a grave mistake!! Tabarnac
Flight ops won't give a rat$ a$$ about you avocado toast eating whiners that won't sign on to pay your dues after paying your dues. The company only budgets so much for pilots and I believe them so we had to choose and we ain't gonna waste time or money on the unborn! This was a group move for solidarity & Blake agrees!! Look how unified we are now. The junior peon pilots love me & the boyz
I have a great relationship with the management and it's awesome here just hate it when they stick me in a middle seat. Middle seats are for crummy Commuters or other bottom of the barrel of pilots. Tabarnac!!!
Re: Rejecting a Job offer
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Last edited by Gooddog on Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Rejecting a Job offer
Well fair enough then. Best of luck. If I might offer any advice, it would be to do a serious amount of research on other carrier options as well. WJ is a long wait to upgrade at their mainline level. Swoop pays less for essentially the same work and is reportedly somewhat toxic. Flair is a much faster upgrade and has multiple bases to offer. There is reportedly a new CBA not far off. Jazz just shut down the flow to AC, Transat might be a little more stable but is slow to hire. Lynx and Canada Jet Lines might be looking but are late to the game after Covid. It's messy out there.Gooddog wrote: ↑Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:16 pmI should have clarified a little more. 1.5 years ago our flight department was shut down and I was shuffled into a non aviation role within the company, (8 of us were).GRK2 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:57 am I think you're missing a screw or two here. Ok, respectfully, why lose all that seniority to start again? You say you have a comparable pension and a good amount of experience, so I wonder, why give up what likely is a schedule you have earned and a level of pay that is satisfactory just to end up at the bottom of a list and on reserve. Do what makes you happy of course but man...think it through very carefully.
Not at all motivated in this position, pays extremely well and has a 6 and 6 schedule. 160hrs vacation so far. I only have 9 years into my pension but I have 20 to go before I retire. I have been flying commercially for 16 years now which is hard to believe when I say it out loud. But I would like to get back in. I would have been very happy to retire at this company I my role as pilot and retire back “home” but I'm not thrilled about it now in this role. Would really like to move While our children are still very young.
I actually have an interview coming up with WJ mainline and I am very excited it.
Re: Rejecting a Job offer
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Last edited by Gooddog on Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.