Airport traffic mini rant

[rookiepilot]

My favourite recent story is returning to Canada and a captain in uniform cuts in front of me at the Nexus line.

The irony is how everyone else in the line looks at you getting to the front of the line with your Nexus card. There is a totem pole and it's flight crew, Nexus, then everyone else. How you feel towards the flight crew is how everyone below you on the totem pole feels towards you. Not passing judgement, just pointing out the irony.

There was no flight crew kiosk or line there. If there was, no problem. Use it.

There was a nexus line, which I used. I went through the procedures to get the card.

The guy didn’t say excuse me. I was the only other one in line, BTW.

He physically pushed past me when he could have waited 30 seconds, with a cute smirk.

Its the elitist attitude that sucks. From a highly skilled, yes, professional, yes, trained, yes, qualified, yes……..bus driver. Lets get that part right. Not Maverick. Bus. Driver. In the air.

Point here has obviously, totally been missed.

[photofly]

Flight and cabin crew are there to operate the service that everyone else is there to use. Of course they don't wait in line. I'm stunned there is any controversy about this.

Bus. Driver. In the air.

Of the bus you rode in on!

Point here has obviously, totally been missed.

Yes, it has! Get out of the dude's way, FFS!

[rookiepilot]

Flight and cabin crew are there to operate the service that everyone else is there to use. Of course they don't wait in line. I'm stunned there is any controversy about this.

You cancel on any student’s today, Maverick? Cause you’re Maverick!

Really the attitude sucks — and I bet I have way more CC real world flying experience than you do, too — FWIW.

This attitude angers me. Really. You’ll be the next AC captain who lies when you kick 30 people off a flight one day, and think nothing of it, like what just happened in Montreal.

[photofly]

This attitude angers me.

Well there's you on one side, and on the other side, the entire worldwide air transportation system that allows staff the courtesy of priority access to security screening so they can make the system you want to use work. That means they get to go in front of you.

When you've calmed down a bit, think it through.

[rookiepilot]

This attitude angers me.

Well there's you on one side, and on the other side, the entire worldwide air transportation system that allows staff the courtesy of priority access to security screening so they can make the system you want to use work. That means they get to go in front of you.

When you've calmed down a bit, think it through.

Simple question:

Should flight crew or ground staff routinely lie to passengers— about delays, cancellations, ect — justifiable— yes or no?

[photofly]

Lol. You're really spoiling for a fight tonight, aren't you?

[PilotDAR]

When I titled the thread "Airport traffic" I was really intending discussion about airplanes flying around the airport, no people walking through the airport... but... whatever.....

[praveen4143]

So I'm flying into an uncontrolled MF airport this morning, I make my "ten minutes out" call, and exchange the prescribed information with Flight Service. No traffic, I'll land straight in. Fellow calls his ten minutes out about a minute later. He's directly behind me a few miles, at the same altitude, and by airplane type, probably flying at least half again as fast as I am. As a courtesy ('cause I know he's faster), I offer that he may pass me, and land first. Flight Service makes traffic separation a priority (thank you), and asks the fellow behind me to report me in sight. No report. Okay, I'm hard to see. FS asks and I update my position, then FS asks the other fellow, to report his, and happily, though he have not previously said, he's now a thousand feet lower than I, so conflict not possible - thanks you. Eventually, I see him directly down and ahead of me, and report. So I start my descent, number two straight in final.

Fellow ahead lands, and I'm a mile and a half high final (which I report). But, instead of pulling off into the taxiway which is right there for him, he turns and backtracks. Okay... I'm going around, which I report. A small circuit later, he's clear and I land. 'Feeling a little put out... I actively thought about how to get out of his way to reduce delay for him, I wish he had extended the same courtesy to me.

Mini rant over.

(7) Where an aircraft is in flight or manoeuvring on the surface, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft shall give way to an aircraft that is landing or about to land.

I would think that once a pilot successfully completes a landing and the aircraft is at taxiing speeds, they relinquish the Right of way to the landing aircraft. What am I missing here?

[digits_]

Interesting point of view. I don't think taxi speeds in itself qualify. After all, just slowing down on a runway with someone behind you to land shouldn't cause you to violate the CARs. Nothing in there says you have to take the first available taxi way either. You could say a pilot trying to get off the runway is still in the process of landing. That's why you report when you're off the runway, not when you've reached taxi speed.

I am curious why the pilot didn't exit on the first taxi way.

[PilotDAR]

After all, just slowing down on a runway with someone behind you to land shouldn't cause you to violate the CARs.

I agree. However, not taking a taxiway, or at least pulling off into the bay, and then back tracking toward landing traffic is the tipping point for me.

I am curious why the pilot didn't exit on the first taxi way.

I was too! He pulled right up to the entrance, and started a turn toward it, (I came to realize was to move off the centerline for more turn around room on the 100 foot wide runway) then turned back the other way to backtrack. I left myself lots of room to overshot, so there was no risk nor drama, I just thought it inconsiderate.

My choice could have been to assert my position on straight in final, and he would have had to slow down and follow me in, or fly a circuit for spacing.

It was like letting the one item person in line ahead of you at the grocery checkout, and then they spend five minutes negotiating a last minute lottery ticket purchase while you wait!

[altiplano]

By this logic, If I am working downtown every day and hitting the Starbucks on the way to the office, can I elbow all of the tourists and students in the line out of the way?

If you are actually at work at Starbucks, and you want a coffee, then sure, of course you get the courtesy of getting served by a barrista without having to queue.

People who work in air transport are at work when they are at an airport in uniform. You are not. Courtesy is to let people at work go about that work as efficiently as possible. Perhaps that's lost on you.

Captain’s time is worth more than anyone else’s. And the FO’s. And the flight crew. And the gate agent’s.

When they're in uniform at an airport they're all at work and they all get to go in front of you. Sorry.

100%. People are trying to do their job. And the rules are they don't have to queue up to do it. Complaining about it is ridiculous.

Barista analogy is right on. Barista going on break and wanting a coffee isn't going to come around the counter and line up to get one.

Mechanic backed up at the shop and needing to fix his own vehicle isn't going to bat an eye to bump your car down the list a day.

Doctor needing to see a specialist for his own health issue is going to call his colleague down the hall and go tomorrow, not get on the 6 month wait list.

And rise don't even have presribed rules, that's just the way it is...

I'm the case of crew, it is the written rule so I'm going to walk to the front of customs/security every time because that's the rule that's in place. If you don't like it, if you want flight crew to line up with passengers at customs and security you should write the Minister of Public Safety and Transport Minister and ask them to change it.

[NotDirty!]

I believe I am familiar with the airport in question. While there is not a full length parallel taxiway, the polite/proper airmanship thing to do would be to exit on Alpha, taxi Charlie/Bravo, and hold short until DAR was down, then backtrack to the main apron. I seem to recall doing EXACTLY THAT more than once when I used to visit a very similar airport fairly regularly. As an instructor, I even suggested this course of action to my students, when it was appropriate!

759E3217-C6D5-4171-9A20-5A37B19081C8.jpeg (167.36 KiB) Viewed 777 times

[rigpiggy]

Hey, since we live in a capitalist society, this debate is easy to settle. How much was he making an hour while waiting in line, and how much were you making per hour waiting in line

Hourly rate might also not be the best metric to determine value of time, but it is 'a' metric.

Well when i work my second job i charge 750/day and fly maybe 3 hrs. Unless your a top capt at AC My hourly is higher

[photofly]

I believe I am familiar with the airport in question. While there is not a full length parallel taxiway, the polite/proper airmanship thing to do would be to exit on Alpha, taxi Charlie/Bravo, and hold short until DAR was down, then backtrack to the main apron. I seem to recall doing EXACTLY THAT more than once when I used to visit a very similar airport fairly regularly. As an instructor, I even suggested this course of action to my students, when it was appropriate!759E3217-C6D5-4171-9A20-5A37B19081C8.jpeg

If you're landing in a flight school plane on 36 and you can't turn around to the main apron (which is at the south end) before Bravo, then you need to work on your landings. If you're in a flight school plane landing on 18 then it might be better to discuss landing long, to minimize your runway occupancy time, then you don't need to exit, wait, and continue the taxi (which is not a backtrack).


From what I understand, the aircraft were landing on 36, correct? The captain of the larger aircraft may not have wanted to taxi Bravo Charlie Alpha and then backtrack almost the full length of the runway, which quite likely would have taken an extra time longer than it took PilotDAR to fly a tight circuit, and would have used more fuel to boot. Nor may he have been comfortable trying to turn his larger aircraft around on Bravo, having exited. Nor did he know where PilotDAR was trying to get to. Not Are any of us confident we can now make that decision on the pilot's behalf? Are we all quite sure there weren't any other aircraft using taxiways Alpha, Charlie or Bravo at the time, that would have made it impossible for the other aircraft to taxi through them?

I'm not sure that airmanship requires a larger aircraft having landed to paint itself into a corner on a taxiway or triple its taxi distance, as unfortunate as that may have been for traffic following. Just saying.

[PilotDAR]

Yes, that is the airport. The plane was not particularly larger, just faster. The pilot did his turn around for backtrack right at taxiway B. When I saw him turn toward B, I thought he was pulling off momentarily so I could land. But, with airport traffic, I never assume, so I waited my decision to land to then see him pull back on to the runway to backtrack 36.

Were I to have yielded my approach to a much larger airplane, I would have adjusted my sense of airport etiquette accordingly...

[photofly]

There's a very small pool of pilots in Canada. When we complain about each other to each other, we're poisoning the water, the same water in which we all swim. Doubly so when then person being complained of isn't part of the conversation, and can't answer for themselves.

There are a million and one possibilities why this pilot might have done what he did, and almost all of them don't stem from a lack of consideration for others, and don't reflect badly on him. Perhaps he really needed the bathroom and every second counted. Perhaps his wife was giving birth. Perhaps he didn't have an airport diagram and didn't want to risk getting stuck on a taxiway with which he wasn't familiar. Perhaps he was just having a bad day.

Life is much sweeter when we give each other the benefit of the doubt, isn't it?

[digits_]

To understand correctly: he landed on 36, and backtracked to the terminal, assuming his destination on the field was the terminal?

[rookiepilot]

3 minute landing delay yields pages and pages of a thread.

3 minutes.

[CpnCrunch]

3 minute landing delay yields pages and pages of a thread.

3 minutes.

I think a page or two of that was you complaining about having to wait 30 seconds at the Nexus line.

[rookiepilot]

By this logic, If I am working downtown every day and hitting the Starbucks on the way to the office, can I elbow all of the tourists and students in the line out of the way?

If you are actually at work at Starbucks, and you want a coffee, then sure, of course you get the courtesy of getting served by a barrista without having to queue.

People who work in air transport are at work when they are at an airport in uniform. You are not. Courtesy is to let people at work go about that work as efficiently as possible. Perhaps that's lost on you.

Captain’s time is worth more than anyone else’s. And the FO’s. And the flight crew. And the gate agent’s.

When they're in uniform at an airport they're all at work and they all get to go in front of you. Sorry.

100%. People are trying to do their job. And the rules are they don't have to queue up to do it. Complaining about it is ridiculous.

Barista analogy is right on. Barista going on break and wanting a coffee isn't going to come around the counter and line up to get one.

Mechanic backed up at the shop and needing to fix his own vehicle isn't going to bat an eye to bump your car down the list a day.

Doctor needing to see a specialist for his own health issue is going to call his colleague down the hall and go tomorrow, not get on the 6 month wait list.

And rise don't even have presribed rules, that's just the way it is...

I'm the case of crew, it is the written rule so I'm going to walk to the front of customs/security every time because that's the rule that's in place. If you don't like it, if you want flight crew to line up with passengers at customs and security you should write the Minister of Public Safety and Transport Minister and ask them to change it.

Fair points.

Being a flaming jerk while asserting ones's rights to go first, isn’t required. This guy was. I didn’t see him coming behind me. Could have said “excuse me”. Instead elbows me out of his way. That is what upset me.

I’m reading countless stories of airline employees acting like total flaming @$$holes while people’s travel plans are being upended. Sometimes for days. Families.

My sympathy for the busy flight crews clearing customs, but not who stand by and do nothing to help?

Limited.