Training bond and fail PPC

[Bede]

I'm just saying, don't try to rely on technicalities like "I didn't actually sign it" as a get-out-of-jail card. There's nothing special about writing your name on a piece of paper.

Signing a contract isn't exactly a "technicality" - that's why nearly every contract uses a signature as an indication of a "meeting of the minds."

"Dear new-recruit. Please attend training beginning 0900 at such-and-such-address on such-and-such a date. We would like to remind you that all new pilot recruits are subject to our training agreement which includes a bond as described in the contract agreement, a further copy of which is attached to this email. Kindly confirm within the next seven days by replying to this email your planned attendance on the date and at the place specified. Your attendance at the training will constitute an indication of your acceptance of the contract terms attached."

True, but unilateral contracts (such as what you're suggesting) are more difficult to enforce for obvious reasons.

[digits_]

A company I worked for had a bond.

They forgot to ask one of the employees to sign it before training. They got the training, left within the timeframe of the bond and never had to pay.

They also got pressured to sign the bond after the training, which was kind of comical. "sign that you will stay for a year or we can't employ you"....

In reality emails for training get send out by the training department. They generally assume the employee paperwork and bond is in order once your name reaches their inbox. A reference to the bond is unlikely to ever be made again.

[digits_]

Don't put all your faith in a signature, or lack of one. If you know there's a bond, you're offered training on the basis of a bond, you're given a copy of the bond, and you accept the training, you're going to have to work very very very hard indeed to show that you didn't demonstrate your acceptance of the bond purely by showing up for the training, whether you signed the paper or not. You absolutely don't have to sign a contract to be bound by it.

This lawyer claims a written agreement is a minimum requirement to have an enforceable bond:
https://www.millerthomson.com/en/public ... ntegration

Last paragraph:

In conclusion, it is possible in some circumstances to recoup training costs from an employee. An enforceable written agreement with respect to repayment is a minimum requirement.

Although no references are provided.

[photofly]

Don't put all your faith in a signature, or lack of one. If you know there's a bond, you're offered training on the basis of a bond, you're given a copy of the bond, and you accept the training, you're going to have to work very very very hard indeed to show that you didn't demonstrate your acceptance of the bond purely by showing up for the training, whether you signed the paper or not. You absolutely don't have to sign a contract to be bound by it.

This lawyer claims a written agreement is a minimum requirement to have an enforceable bond

I agree - I think would be very hard to enforce a purely oral agreement to recoup training costs. See the part in bold, above. But a written agreement is still a written agreement, whether you sign it or not.

[rookiepilot]

A company I worked for had a bond.

They forgot to ask one of the employees to sign it before training. They got the training, left within the timeframe of the bond and never had to pay.

Thats just stealing in my eyes.

And before the argument happens, as the “business owner”, commenting here…..its only “my” opinion that matters.

If one can’t be trusted to honour a simple contract, sure as heck can’t be trusted with million dollar equipment or peoples lives.

If I ran that company, I’d make sure to send that person's name to all my friends….running other aviation companies. I guarantee they probably all know each other.

How’s that?

It’s called blacklisting. And it happens.

What goes around, comes around. Its a small industry.

[photofly]

What goes around, comes around. Its a small industry.

Wait a minute, don't you work in finance?

[digits_]

But a written agreement is still a written agreement, whether you sign it or not.

Is it? (honest question)

If it's written, and not signed, then that seems like a proposal to me. Doesn't a written agreement require that your acceptance of the agreement is also written down?

If I tell you 'I agree with what you wrote down', wouldn't that be an oral agreement of the written terms?

[digits_]

A company I worked for had a bond.

They forgot to ask one of the employees to sign it before training. They got the training, left within the timeframe of the bond and never had to pay.

Thats just stealing in my eyes.

And before the argument happens, as the “business owner”, commenting here…..its only “my” opinion that matters.

If one can’t be trusted to honour a simple contract, sure as heck can’t be trusted with million dollar equipment or peoples lives.

If I ran that company, I’d make sure to send that person's name to all my friends….running other aviation companies. I guarantee they probably all know each other.

How’s that?

It’s called blacklisting. And it happens.

What goes around, comes around. Its a small industry.

First of all, it is not stealing. Stealing has a legal definition, and this situation doesn't come close to it. If you go around blacklisting an employee for 'stealing' because they didn't sign a bond after the fact, I hope that employee does get some lawyers involved for damages done. I doubt a judge would agree that only 'your' opinion matters at that time.

Second, is it the employee's task to remind management 'heyyyyy, don't forget to bond me!'

The employee I'm talking about still stuck around for 7 months or so, like most employees at that particular company. So it's not like they got a free typerating out of it and went to the competition.

The gossip around base was that the employee replied to management's pressure with 'well I just got an offer for airline XXX. I'd rather do this job because it seems fun, but I can take their offer as well, what would you like me to do?'.
I'm not sure that's true, but I'd like to believe it is.

Note that a bond always spells out the duties of the employee, it never describes the detailed (often misrepresented) work conditions the employee can expect.

[2112]

A company I worked for had a bond.

They forgot to ask one of the employees to sign it before training. They got the training, left within the timeframe of the bond and never had to pay.

Thats just stealing in my eyes.

And before the argument happens, as the “business owner”, commenting here…..its only “my” opinion that matters.

If one can’t be trusted to honour a simple contract, sure as heck can’t be trusted with million dollar equipment or peoples lives.

If I ran that company, I’d make sure to send that person's name to all my friends….running other aviation companies. I guarantee they probably all know each other.

How’s that?

It’s called blacklisting. And it happens.

What goes around, comes around. Its a small industry.

It's also a two way street, pilots talk as well and it's those vindictive operators that had the hardest time attracting pilots prior to covid. Maybe with a recession on the horizon they will last another few years but the days of strong arming young pilots into one sided bonds are numbered.

[photofly]

But a written agreement is still a written agreement, whether you sign it or not.

Is it? (honest question)

If it's written, and not signed, then that seems like a proposal to me. Doesn't a written agreement require that your acceptance of the agreement is also written down?

If I tell you 'I agree with what you wrote down', wouldn't that be an oral agreement of the written terms?

If part of the proposal is to provide you with training, and you turn up for and accept the training, you have accepted the proposal. A court will very reasonably ask on what other basis you thought you were being provided the training, and where is your evidence of that other agreement?

Acceptance of a contract can be signified in writing or by conduct.

What a signature does is make it harder (but still
not impossible!) for the trainee to claim they didn’t know there was an agreement or what was in it. But if there’s evidence you were given a copy of the agreement sufficiently in advance to have had a chance to read it and take advice on it that’s very easily rebutted.

I don’t say a signature is worthless. I just say, don’t hang your future on the peg of not having signed an agreement for evidence of your acceptance of which your simple conduct will do instead.

[rookiepilot]

A company I worked for had a bond.

They forgot to ask one of the employees to sign it before training. They got the training, left within the timeframe of the bond and never had to pay.

Thats just stealing in my eyes.

And before the argument happens, as the “business owner”, commenting here…..its only “my” opinion that matters.

If one can’t be trusted to honour a simple contract, sure as heck can’t be trusted with million dollar equipment or peoples lives.

If I ran that company, I’d make sure to send that person's name to all my friends….running other aviation companies. I guarantee they probably all know each other.

How’s that?

It’s called blacklisting. And it happens.

What goes around, comes around. Its a small industry.

First of all, it is not stealing. Stealing has a legal definition, and this situation doesn't come close to it. If you go around blacklisting an employee for 'stealing' because they didn't sign a bond after the fact, I hope that employee does get some lawyers involved for damages done. I doubt a judge would agree that only 'your' opinion matters at that time.

Second, is it the employee's task to remind management 'heyyyyy, don't forget to bond me!'

The employee I'm talking about still stuck around for 7 months or so, like most employees at that particular company. So it's not like they got a free typerating out of it and went to the competition.

The gossip around base was that the employee replied to management's pressure with 'well I just got an offer for airline XXX. I'd rather do this job because it seems fun, but I can take their offer as well, what would you like me to do?'.
I'm not sure that's true, but I'd like to believe it is.

Note that a bond always spells out the duties of the employee, it never describes the detailed (often misrepresented) work conditions the employee can expect.

It’s stealing.

Honor your agreements. Written and oral.

Do your homework before agreeing to either. Its called “due diligence”, and your responsibility as a party to a contract.

[digits_]

But a written agreement is still a written agreement, whether you sign it or not.

Is it? (honest question)

If it's written, and not signed, then that seems like a proposal to me. Doesn't a written agreement require that your acceptance of the agreement is also written down?

If I tell you 'I agree with what you wrote down', wouldn't that be an oral agreement of the written terms?

If part of the proposal is to provide you with training, and you turn up for and accept the training, you have accepted the proposal. A court will very reasonably ask on what other basis you thought you were being provided the training, and where is your evidence of that other agreement?

I don't think I fully understand the distinction you're trying to make.

Why would that same court not ask the employer on what basis he claims a bond payout when the employee did not sign the bond agreement they required? And where the evidence is that the employee accepted the terms of the bond, even though they didn't sign it?

If it is referenced in the job offer, and the employee accepts the job offer but does not sign the bond, yet the company proceeds with hiring the employee and training him, why would the court then assume the employee accepted the bond?

What if the employee tells the court 'they wanted me to sign a bond, I declined, but they decided to hire me anyway because they needed a pilot'?

Acceptance of a contract can be signified in writing or by conduct.

What a signature does is make it harder (but still
not impossible!) for the trainee to claim they didn’t know there was an agreement or what was in it. But if there’s evidence you were given a copy of the agreement sufficiently in advance to have had a chance to read it and take advice on it that’s very easily rebutted.

I don’t say a signature is worthless. I just say, don’t hang your future on the peg of not having signed an agreement for evidence of your acceptance of which your simple conduct will do instead.

If we assume what that lawyer wrote in my link was correct, and a written agreement is required for an employer to recuperate training costs from an employee, does that then not mean a written signature is required?

Or, can you have a written agreement without a signature? Isn't a written signature an essential part of a written agreement?


I understand and agree you can ty to prove an oral agreement with emails and documents etc that weren't necessarily signed. I just don't think you can do that for a written agreement.

But that's all based on google and reddit level lawyer talk, so I'm happy to be proven wrong. Just curious for a reference or an example

[lownslow]

On the other hand, do my actions mean that the successful candidates were covering the training costs of the ones who failed?

No, your customers were covering all your training expenses and all your other business expenses.

Correct. That’s how the doors stay open. I’m no financial panther but I bet it’s on the first page of the textbook, maybe even before the table of contents.

Problem is, I have $20K into training a candidate who couldn’t cut it on a bond for $8k that I’m about to tear up because I’m a nice guy. So there’s a $20,000 expense sitting there that the company can thankfully cover, as demonstrated by still being in business. But that money is gone, a couple of turbines have moved closer to overhaul, a line pilot was borrowed for two weeks to teach the course and I’m in hot water with the CEO. Cool beans.

You know where I’d rather see that money go? Into the pockets of the line pilots but now it no longer exists. It was spent on some guy who either lied about his qualifications to get the job or had a glowing reference trying to get rid of him. Now we’re understaffed until I can find a replacement which hits revenue and I’m going to have to take the plane away from rev flights at some point to train the new guy, all the while praying he makes it. Make no mistake the whole staff feels that whether they know it or not.

[Bede]

^ that was probably the most rational post I've read on this forum for a long time.

[7ECA]

It’s called blacklisting. And it happens.

What goes around, comes around. Its a small industry.

Indeed it does, but it's rather frowned upon by Labour Law. Now, will an employee who gets the shaft from his shit-rat employer actually take the time to sue them to clear their name, or just more on, is another story altogether.

[rookiepilot]

It’s called blacklisting. And it happens.

What goes around, comes around. Its a small industry.

Indeed it does, but it's rather frowned upon by Labour Law. Now, will an employee who gets the shaft from his shit-rat employer actually take the time to sue them to clear their name, or just more on, is another story altogether.

Why not just Honor your word? Not split hairs to gain what is in reality a fake “edge” but wrecks your reputation?

I don’t get it.

Then again, I’m just trying to share timeless principles for long term success.

Not legal wrangling to get out of agreements made.

[7ECA]

Why not just Honor your word? Not split hairs to gain what is in reality a fake “edge” but wrecks your reputation?

I don’t get it.

Then again, I’m just trying to share timeless principles for long term success.

Not legal wrangling to get out of agreements made.

Honouring one's word, is one thing - being blacklisted by an employer for a perceived slight is a whole other thing. Apparently employees are the only ones whom are required to have any shred of decency, or honour, whereas employers seem to be given a pass by yourself - up to and including blacklisting.

I dare say, this thread on the idea of being beholden to a bond in the event of a failed PPC, is hardly asking for any sort of legal wrangling to get out of said agreement. It seems much more along the lines of, how can someone be expected to pay for training, when the training isn't beneficial to the employee who failed their PPC (there's no "edge" or "gain" there)?

Feel free to argue all you want about bonds as a whole, but in any other industry it is accepted as the cost of doing business that employees will have to be trained at the employer's expense.

[photofly]

In most industries the training is relatively cheap, or else is unlikely to provide an easy step to the next job.

How long does it take to “earn back” forklift training?

I think if a company offers an off the street applicant heavy truck driving lessons for free to employ them as a driver, there would be a bond.

[rookiepilot]

Why not just Honor your word? Not split hairs to gain what is in reality a fake “edge” but wrecks your reputation?

I don’t get it.

Then again, I’m just trying to share timeless principles for long term success.

Not legal wrangling to get out of agreements made.

Honouring one's word, is one thing - being blacklisted by an employer for a perceived slight is a whole other thing. Apparently employees are the only ones whom are required to have any shred of decency, or honour, whereas employers seem to be given a pass by yourself - up to and including blacklisting.

I dare say, this thread on the idea of being beholden to a bond in the event of a failed PPC, is hardly asking for any sort of legal wrangling to get out of said agreement. It seems much more along the lines of, how can someone be expected to pay for training, when the training isn't beneficial to the employee who failed their PPC (there's no "edge" or "gain" there)?

Feel free to argue all you want about bonds as a whole, but in any other industry it is accepted as the cost of doing business that employees will have to be trained at the employer's expense.

My post was in direct response to a poster alluding that it’s perfectly cool, honourable and moral, to skip out on a clear contractual agreement, and the business should just eat the cost. Signed or not, is beside the point, in my eyes. I suspect in many people's eyes. In any industry.

I am simply writing that there may be serious consequences for such choices — in the real world. Business is done, careers are advanced, through trust and relationships. I certainly would have zero tolerance for it.

Do your due diligence on an employer, before making such agreements. These aren’t children we are talking about.

You’re also treating this as an equal power relationship, which it is certainly not. Any such belief is pure fantasyland.

Ignore my words, I don’t care. Just giving real world advice.

[Aviatard]

It’s called blacklisting. And it happens.

What goes around, comes around. Its a small industry.

Then again, I’m just trying to share timeless principles for long term success.

Not legal wrangling to get out of agreements made.

Ah the time honored principle of blacklisting. That worked well in the 1950s so why not today?