All you underpaid airline pilots...

[negative_g]

I guess they require the FAA medical/ATP before interviewing? I was hoping Frontier would pay for it after sending the offer over.

I got in touch with them and they said the FAA ATP is a minimum requirement to move forward with it. I’m personally not ready to throw the money at the ATP/CTP sim course you need to get the rating converted if I don’t have something firm in writing - you’d think they could just interview and give you an offer conditional on getting our licenses converted over…

A buddy of mine was actually at a hiring event for frontier and the recruiters there had no idea about hiring Canadians (not that recruiters know everything so I hear).

I have been in touch with Frontier recruitment to confirm whether the ad on Brookfield is legit and it is, and they are very much aware of the new visa sponsorship scheme. It is likely something that is very new, within the last week.

You are right the ATP is required to move on. It is a pretty simple process but unfortunately costs a bit. But that said, if you really want out of Canada this is what's needed. And I expect Frontier is only the first. Just like when the E3 visas were only regional airlines and now you have Spirit, Frontier, JetBlue and Atlas all using it. The same will happen with Canadians/Mexicans/Chileans etc.

[Ash Ketchum]

I guess they require the FAA medical/ATP before interviewing? I was hoping Frontier would pay for it after sending the offer over.

I got in touch with them and they said the FAA ATP is a minimum requirement to move forward with it. I’m personally not ready to throw the money at the ATP/CTP sim course you need to get the rating converted if I don’t have something firm in writing - you’d think they could just interview and give you an offer conditional on getting our licenses converted over…

A buddy of mine was actually at a hiring event for frontier and the recruiters there had no idea about hiring Canadians (not that recruiters know everything so I hear).

Exactly it is like 5 K USD and will require me taking time off work. Not worth it unless they are serious. I told them I will get it once I get the offer and before my start date...

[schnitzel2k3]

I did the CPL/IPT in the spring. Got the FAA card and been sitting on it as I was planning on just doing some contracting.

Was strumming my chin on the ATP as it is rather pricey, and unless I have income to justify the investment, it's not YET worth it.

If this posting proves active and we see guys transition legitimately under an HB or E3 visa program, 100% I'll be on the next ATP/CTP course.

[WellThatAgedWell]

I did the CPL/IPT in the spring. Got the FAA card and been sitting on it as I was planning on just doing some contracting.

Was strumming my chin on the ATP as it is rather pricey, and unless I have income to justify the investment, it's not YET worth it.

If this posting proves active and we see guys transition legitimately under an HB or E3 visa program, 100% I'll be on the next ATP/CTP course.

You can say it’s not worth it “yet” but Canadian wages will never catch up. If you gave all pilots here a 50 percent hike many would not be on par with the US carriers.

I think you either commit to make the move or you just accept it’s worth working for less here in Canada. Canadians pilots will be lucky to see a 10 percent hike to maintain inflation. Long term America is easily the better option for anything on a contract.

[RockSalty]

Its a lot of money to throw at a conversion if it doesnt actually get you a job - the course itself is like 5k USD at most places offering it and thats not including accomodation etc...

[WellThatAgedWell]

Its a lot of money to throw at a conversion if it doesnt actually get you a job - the course itself is like 5k USD at most places offering it and thats not including accomodation etc...

Aren’t pilots throwing 50k US to get their license up to the commercial level? 5k is nothing in the big picture. Sure it’s something to dwell on for a moment, but this is not a lot of money. You barely require time off to complete it. I know people who change careers, stop working for 4 years and go spend 5k a year in tuition.

People like guarantee and don’t like risk. That’s for the weak. Those who take this small risk will get the greatest benefit. 5k is the type of investment you might throw at a penny stock, It’s not a huge amount of money for the potential return. You are right that this may not work out for everyone, but on the scale of risk reward this is a no brainer if you are willing to commit to try and make this work. It’s cheaper than any investment most of us have made into this career to get us where we are and has the potential to double your income on the highest end of the pilot pay scale in Canada.

You could spend 5 K to get an instructor rating and work for peanuts if you like. Of take a month off work and spend the 5k on your ATP to make double what an Air Canada pilot makes. Take your pick.

[RRJetPilot]

Its a lot of money to throw at a conversion if it doesnt actually get you a job - the course itself is like 5k USD at most places offering it and thats not including accomodation etc...

Exactly the type of attitude they don’t want down there. A beat down Canadian that won’t strive to do what it takes to work and live in the USA. While the strong and motivated will do what it takes, succeed, and get rewarded for their efforts.

Enjoy your poverty wages in a country that doesn't value hard work and dedication run by a dictator that uses cabinet privilege to rule by decree.

Best if everyone is equal and get the same wage and food ration right? Oh wait…..

[schnitzel2k3]

Its a lot of money to throw at a conversion if it doesnt actually get you a job - the course itself is like 5k USD at most places offering it and thats not including accomodation etc...

Exactly the type of attitude they don’t want down there. A beat down Canadian that won’t strive to do what it takes to work and live in the USA. While the strong and motivated will do what it takes, succeed, and get rewarded for their efforts.

Enjoy your poverty wages in a country that doesn't value hard work and dedication run by a dictator that uses cabinet privilege to rule by decree.

Best if everyone is equal and get the same wage and food ration right? Oh wait…..

Lol ok ok, pump the brakes on your runaway train, shes going downhill and picking up speed.

I get it, it's great to go out and dump 5-7K on a conversion, and while the excitement is building, if all this excitement turns out to be all for not, due to a lack of visa access for employment based sponsorship, then why convert without a chance to recoup costs?

It's early, and we are starting to see the light. People with various responsibilities, spouses, families to think about, it's not as cut and dry as most think to pick up move west for the gold rush.

I hope people, if they hear back and are succesful, share that information for those that wish to follow.

This could be a great thing.

[Needswork2020]

My buddy just got the nod.
Fast process, no bullsh8t.

He, of course had a FAA with a A320 rating. I'm down here already, but as a previous 320 Skipper like him, I have just thrown my name in.
Brookfield took 12 hrs to get back to me, I'm hoping to be on the October course.

There will a rush of folks like us with FAA ATPs and A320 ratings (w/PIC time).
That will end after the first few courses - Boys start converting your licenses, it's not that hard.

Getting out of this poisonous Canadian system is what is needed. F8ck AC and their disgusting wages.

Send AC THEIR PFO letter.

[RockSalty]

Its a lot of money to throw at a conversion if it doesnt actually get you a job - the course itself is like 5k USD at most places offering it and thats not including accomodation etc...

Aren’t pilots throwing 50k US to get their license up to the commercial level? 5k is nothing in the big picture. Sure it’s something to dwell on for a moment, but this is not a lot of money. You barely require time off to complete it. I know people who change careers, stop working for 4 years and go spend 5k a year in tuition.

People like guarantee and don’t like risk. That’s for the weak. Those who take this small risk will get the greatest benefit. 5k is the type of investment you might throw at a penny stock, It’s not a huge amount of money for the potential return. You are right that this may not work out for everyone, but on the scale of risk reward this is a no brainer if you are willing to commit to try and make this work. It’s cheaper than any investment most of us have made into this career to get us where we are and has the potential to double your income on the highest end of the pilot pay scale in Canada.

You could spend 5 K to get an instructor rating and work for peanuts if you like. Of take a month off work and spend the 5k on your ATP to make double what an Air Canada pilot makes. Take your pick.

Don't get me wrong, I'll probably take a week off and get it done before the end of the year - I want to get the hell out of Canadian aviation. But what might be chump change to you or I could be a lot of money to throw away for nothing to a Jazz or Encore FO stuck living in YYZ. I think as we start to see more success stories people are going to be less afraid of the risk and find it easier to get it done.

[goingmissed]

Don't get me wrong, I'll probably take a week off and get it done before the end of the year - I want to get the hell out of Canadian aviation. But what might be chump change to you or I could be a lot of money to throw away for nothing to a Jazz or Encore FO stuck living in YYZ. I think as we start to see more success stories people are going to be less afraid of the risk and find it easier to get it done.

You mean a pilot bringing in less than $1200 (~$950USD) twice a month would have trouble shelling out $5000 USD?

Wages here are a *** joke.

-- Sorry, I didn't mean for that to come across as anger directed at you. I am disappointed with the Canadian aviation industry.

[JHR]

I spent around $7500cad on my FAA. Of course I had to fly down to FLL twice since day one of the first course I got the Rona
Half of every class is full of Canadians that have been anticipating this sort of thing. No doubt Frontier received over a hundred resume already. Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall. "What the hell is going on in Canada that is causing guys with A380 PIC time to apply to a low cost carrier?"

[Needswork2020]

I did mine in 04' as part of the B747 course I was on in MIA.. the only extra cost was the medical and the GLEIM (SP?) course for the written test.
In my mid 40's now I can tell you it's paid off so many times. Short BBJ contracts, ferrying a N reg.. The FAA ATP is infinitely more valuable than Canada's.

Get on er' boys. Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

(and yeah.. I have PIC 330 and 320 time..happy to sit right seat and nap for 1000hrs to meet the PIC 121 requirement.)

[Ash Ketchum]

I am thinking I may just invest my time, and money into the conversion if this trend continues. Initially the plan was to wait for the EB-2 NIW to get approved before converting but that may not even be necessary now.

[schnitzel2k3]

I am thinking I may just invest my time, and money into the conversion if this trend continues. Initially the plan was to wait for the EB-2 NIW to get approved before converting but that may not even be necessary now.

If you are thinking of putting an NIW together, it would behoove you to have the ATP in your back pocket.

[mmm..bacon]

...a Jazz or Encore FO stuck living in YYZ. I think as we start to see more success stories people are going to be less afraid of the risk and find it easier to get it done.

My perception is that the average Jazz/Enc F/O isn't qualified for this job with the PIC requirements that they ask. OTOH, If I were a 1-5 year Captain, I'd be looking at this really closely...

[BE02 Driver]

Some thoughts on the thread from reading through.....

1. E-3 visas are happening for Aussies, I have met many down here. I have also met H1B visa and EB-2/3 (Green Card) sponsorship pilots and EB-2 NIW as well from various airlines.

2. The ATP-CTP course can be found for as little as $3500 USD. Medical is about $200 with a EKG, the written test is $150. The Letter from TC is free. Gleim or Sheppard air is $65 or so for studying. So $5000 CND is probably about correct.

3. Having a job offer before doing a course is irrelevant. Most states are "at will" employment, you'd have no recourse if they change their mind. You can quit with no notice for any reason, and they can terminate with no notice for any reason.

4. Fortune favors the bold. If a $5000 investment in your future is too much to leave the aviation industry in Canada, well, then you are right where you belong. That under achieving attitude is why the pay/conditions are so poor there in the first place.

5. The pay is way, way more than double Canada by time you factor in benefits, taxes, buying power of the USD, and the pay rates at the US carriers. First year Captain at a ULCC will out earn, or come very close to the most senior airline pilots in Canada if you factor in the full circumstances. Taxes being the biggest buy a long shot. Unless you are dumb enough to want to live in California or New York of course. Or if you think it's smart to commute from Canada and give your USD to JT.

6. If you move to Texas, Tennessee, Florida, New Hampshire, Washington State, Alaska there is no state income tax. So if you work for Frontier you can expect a 4 year upgrade to the tune of $223,000 USD/year base. Federal taxes are about $52,000 for that salary and only increase to the next bracket at half a million. Medical/Dental/Vision is about $400/pay for a family give or take and they pay 16% of you gross income into your retirement with no match required. For those keeping track that's in the neighborhood of $13-14,000 USD take home (base) per month plus a pension paid for you, and includes benefits.

[Just another canuck]

I had to take a break from this forum awhile back, but finally a thread that interests me.

I’ll send an email off to these guys myself, but perhaps someone here already has the answers. And just a few things to point out.

One poster said his buddy got the nod and they hope to be in an October course. This tells me Frontier will be using H1B’s, which from my experience with several different lawyers, is not a visa you should be leaving your mainline job in Canada to work under. It, like an E3 for the Aussies, is not a pathway to citizenship. They are time limited visas. You will be restricted to working with Frontier and should something happen at Frontier, you will not have the option of applying to the guys next door. You will be sent home. Now, is Frontier getting guys down quick then applying for the EB2 while you’re down there? That’s a question worth asking. That being said, not everyone that meets the conditions of the Brookfield job ad will meet the requirements of the EB2, which are really the same as the EB2 NIW. 10 years minimum experience, post secondary in your field, etc., etc. My point is the 30 year old at AC leaves for Frontier on an H1B, but then gets sent packing cause they don’t qualify for the EB2. Lawyers I’ve spoken with are processing NIW’s for Aussies who are actively in the States on E3’’s, because in the end the E3 is useless and it’s the EB2, the green card, which is what you need.

Atlas was hiring E3’s, but also processing EB2’s for people which takes 18 months give or take, so I don’t believe Frontier is doing that if start times are only months away. Even the regionals like Breeze were offering EB2’s. There is a faster processing time for the EB2 petition but not for the appointment at the consulate so best case an EB2 still takes a year to process.

The unions are actively blocking anyone on H1B’s or E3’s from flowing through to the legacies. The unions are actively fighting the use of and renewal of E3’s and H1B’s. The don’t mind EB2’s because you are a green card holder, eventually a citizen and are part of the system. E3 and H1B holders are our TFW equivalents. We don’t like them here. How do you think the U.S. guys will feel?

My two cents. I wouldn’t leave a major in Canada to go work in the States on an H1B or any time limited visa. I would leave tomorrow to work on a green card. I’ve applied for the NIW process and I guess this job ad has me a little concerned now. That being said, I’m surprised Frontier is doing it. You WILL NOT see American, Delta or United doing it. Or FedEx or UPS. Those are the ones I would like to work for. A successful EB2 NIW will at least, allow me to apply.

5 grand is nothing. Drop in the bucket. If you really want to work and live in the United States. If 5K makes you hesitant, you’re better off where you are.

[schnitzel2k3]

Let's hear some success stories guys when they start to roll in.

Discussing rather than withholding is how we benefit our winged brethren. If you are successful then what does it hurt to share your success AND assist others in succeeding?

The pathetic situation at Air Canada is what happens when people think solely for themselves and completely abandon the crew resource concept. Toxic management has managed to divide and conquer that flight group like nobody's business. I had a Bahamian describe that situation as 'Black Crab Syndrome', keep people from succeeding and in the bucket so they all die from the same fate.

I'm a little behind but catching up here, hoping to have something to look forward to when the course is all done.

[BE02 Driver]

I had to take a break from this forum awhile back, but finally a thread that interests me.

I’ll send an email off to these guys myself, but perhaps someone here already has the answers. And just a few things to point out.

One poster said his buddy got the nod and they hope to be in an October course. This tells me Frontier will be using H1B’s, which from my experience with several different lawyers, is not a visa you should be leaving your mainline job in Canada to work under. It, like an E3 for the Aussies, is not a pathway to citizenship. They are time limited visas. You will be restricted to working with Frontier and should something happen at Frontier, you will not have the option of applying to the guys next door. You will be sent home. Now, is Frontier getting guys down quick then applying for the EB2 while you’re down there? That’s a question worth asking. That being said, not everyone that meets the conditions of the Brookfield job ad will meet the requirements of the EB2, which are really the same as the EB2 NIW. 10 years minimum experience, post secondary in your field, etc., etc. My point is the 30 year old at AC leaves for Frontier on an H1B, but then gets sent packing cause they don’t qualify for the EB2. Lawyers I’ve spoken with are processing NIW’s for Aussies who are actively in the States on E3’’s, because in the end the E3 is useless and it’s the EB2, the green card, which is what you need.

Atlas was hiring E3’s, but also processing EB2’s for people which takes 18 months give or take, so I don’t believe Frontier is doing that if start times are only months away. Even the regionals like Breeze were offering EB2’s. There is a faster processing time for the EB2 petition but not for the appointment at the consulate so best case an EB2 still takes a year to process.

The unions are actively blocking anyone on H1B’s or E3’s from flowing through to the legacies. The unions are actively fighting the use of and renewal of E3’s and H1B’s. The don’t mind EB2’s because you are a green card holder, eventually a citizen and are part of the system. E3 and H1B holders are our TFW equivalents. We don’t like them here. How do you think the U.S. guys will feel?

My two cents. I wouldn’t leave a major in Canada to go work in the States on an H1B or any time limited visa. I would leave tomorrow to work on a green card. I’ve applied for the NIW process and I guess this job ad has me a little concerned now. That being said, I’m surprised Frontier is doing it. You WILL NOT see American, Delta or United doing it. Or FedEx or UPS. Those are the ones I would like to work for. A successful EB2 NIW will at least, allow me to apply.

5 grand is nothing. Drop in the bucket. If you really want to work and live in the United States. If 5K makes you hesitant, you’re better off where you are.

All good points. Although E-3 and H1B visas are similar, they are not equivalent. E-3 is only good for 2 years without a labor certification and the H1B is good for a maximum of 6 years with a renewal (Labor Certification done on the front end). The H1B is a dual intent visa and can be used for an intent to immigrate where as the E-3 is not an immigrant visa, and as such you have to intend on returning to Australia. The EB-2 would not be the avenue the airline would sponsor you, it would almost certainly be an EB-3 Skilled Worker, which has lower requirements that most professional pilots would likely qualify for. The EB-2 NIW has higher standards due to the fact that it is issued without employment offers or labor certifications.

It has been my experience that most companies, not just aviation sector, tend to do the H1B to EB-3 route purposefully. If they direct sponsor the EB-3 they can loose the employee 6 months after the change of status is filed (Before the Green Card even arrives). However the H1B marries you to the sponsoring company, so they retain your services for longer. What I have seen is that most companies will sponsor a H1B then sponsor a EB-3 after 2 years on property to reduce attrition and people just seeking a Green Card.

In reality I have found the most difficult part of immigrating to the US was getting here. Getting a Green Card after the initial move was much easier than I anticipated and things tend to fall into place once you start looking around. The most common path to a Green Card appears to be via some sort of visa first, then an Application for a Change of Status. If Frontier or any other airline is sponsoring an H1B I can't imagine they will not follow through with the EB-3 application after x years to keep their newly minted Captain. But most of this requires an amount of risk which you appropriately pointed out. It's not for the faint of heart. It worked out fine for me, and I'm glad I left.