Recruiting and Retention Bonus

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cdnavater
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by cdnavater »

A retention bonus, much like a signing bonus is just a NON-permanent raise!
The company is betting that in three years they won’t need to offer a “rentention bonus” to keep pilots as the down cycle as likely begun.
If they gave a raise now, it becomes part of the pay going forward and would need to be negotiated lower in a down cycle, maybe this “new” pay scale when it comes out will make this retention bonus an actual bonus and not the fore mentioned non raise raise.
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by tbaylx »

cdnavater wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:14 pm A retention bonus, much like a signing bonus is just a NON-permanent raise!
The company is betting that in three years they won’t need to offer a “rentention bonus” to keep pilots as the down cycle as likely begun.
If they gave a raise now, it becomes part of the pay going forward and would need to be negotiated lower in a down cycle, maybe this “new” pay scale when it comes out will make this retention bonus an actual bonus and not the fore mentioned non raise raise.
The retention bonus is not a replacement for a raise. It is in addition to the new pay rates in the upcoming CBA.
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cdnavater
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by cdnavater »

tbaylx wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:54 am
cdnavater wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:14 pm A retention bonus, much like a signing bonus is just a NON-permanent raise!
The company is betting that in three years they won’t need to offer a “rentention bonus” to keep pilots as the down cycle as likely begun.
If they gave a raise now, it becomes part of the pay going forward and would need to be negotiated lower in a down cycle, maybe this “new” pay scale when it comes out will make this retention bonus an actual bonus and not the fore mentioned non raise raise.
The retention bonus is not a replacement for a raise. It is in addition to the new pay rates in the upcoming CBA.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, I assume you have inside information but for the rest of us, we’ll make that determination when it actually happens.
Until then, it is what it is and regarding the possible new wages, if they were that good, why the need for a “retention bonus”?
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by Soyer »

Joeschumer wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:20 pm I’m sorry but like most things in Canadian aviation, this retention bonus is a joke. Even with the bonuses counted yearly on top of flair salaries, this is still one of the lowest paying 737 jobs in Canada. Not to mention, you won’t see that money for 3 years only to then pay massive taxes on it. Bonuses that are awarded upon reaching several gates or milestones would be a much more attractive proposition than this 3 year promise costing the company nada for 3 whole years! Think about that!

As for the pay-scale hope, flair management has been promising that for over a year now with no action, if they really wanted to show their pilots they mean business there would have been an LOU signed a long time ago. Instead they are riding the promise wave for as long as possible, if it will even come to pass. (Of course if that happens most other carriers will also raise theirs and these bonuses will still be a joke.)

The company isn’t stupid, promises cost them nothing, and pilots accepting promises and having hope are a managements best friend.

Sadly, a lot of the comments in this thread reinforce how and why canadian aviation and it’s pilots got to their current state. We always go after promises while have near infinite hope that things will change, and that has got to be the fatal flaw of being a Canadian pilot.

I’m sure everybody realizes that we are in a hard pilot shortage at the moment, there are very few industries that have the power that we do. All it takes is unity within the pilot group for change to happen, and quickly, that’s all it takes! As somebody above mentioned never accept the first offer, ESPECIALLY if the ball is in your court. (It definitely is)
It's a joke? It is almost identical to the other retention schemes in the country (think Cargojet). Flair management has not been promising anything as the company and ALPA are in negotiations and, by the way, negotiations did not begin until January because of the move from Unifor to ALPA and that sits squarely with the pilots. Negotiations are ongoing and we will get a deal once that it is complete. Comments about a pay LOU are ridiculous - it doesn't work that way. But the bonus certainly telegraphs the company's intention to pay competitively and I high doubt the ALPA team would have agreed to it if the negotiations were not going well.
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by Joeschumer »

Soyer wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:54 am
Joeschumer wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:20 pm I’m sorry but like most things in Canadian aviation, this retention bonus is a joke. Even with the bonuses counted yearly on top of flair salaries, this is still one of the lowest paying 737 jobs in Canada. Not to mention, you won’t see that money for 3 years only to then pay massive taxes on it. Bonuses that are awarded upon reaching several gates or milestones would be a much more attractive proposition than this 3 year promise costing the company nada for 3 whole years! Think about that!

As for the pay-scale hope, flair management has been promising that for over a year now with no action, if they really wanted to show their pilots they mean business there would have been an LOU signed a long time ago. Instead they are riding the promise wave for as long as possible, if it will even come to pass. (Of course if that happens most other carriers will also raise theirs and these bonuses will still be a joke.)

The company isn’t stupid, promises cost them nothing, and pilots accepting promises and having hope are a managements best friend.

Sadly, a lot of the comments in this thread reinforce how and why canadian aviation and it’s pilots got to their current state. We always go after promises while have near infinite hope that things will change, and that has got to be the fatal flaw of being a Canadian pilot.

I’m sure everybody realizes that we are in a hard pilot shortage at the moment, there are very few industries that have the power that we do. All it takes is unity within the pilot group for change to happen, and quickly, that’s all it takes! As somebody above mentioned never accept the first offer, ESPECIALLY if the ball is in your court. (It definitely is)
It's a joke? It is almost identical to the other retention schemes in the country (think Cargojet). Flair management has not been promising anything as the company and ALPA are in negotiations and, by the way, negotiations did not begin until January because of the move from Unifor to ALPA and that sits squarely with the pilots. Negotiations are ongoing and we will get a deal once that it is complete. Comments about a pay LOU are ridiculous - it doesn't work that way. But the bonus certainly telegraphs the company's intention to pay competitively and I high doubt the ALPA team would have agreed to it if the negotiations were not going well.
Well there’s a Kool-Aid drinker right there, wow. There have been many pay scale LOUs at other companies in Canada so do not even defend that. The bonus telegraphs nothing as it’s a last minute bandaid in hopes of stopping people from leaving right after training. There were talks about a training bond starting in September, hopefully that doesn’t happen but that’s where managements mind is FYI. For the sake of Canadian aviation stop defending these deals, I do not understand people like you. I really do hope flair raises their wages significantly and gives you better bonuses, but for now we can put discussions to rest until we see it on paper.
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by rudder »

Joeschumer wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 4:20 am There were talks about a training bond starting in September, hopefully that doesn’t happen but that’s where managements mind is FYI.
A training bond is a term and condition of employment and therefore would have to be included in the WAWCON of the CBA.

Could also be added via LOU. Not sure why ALPA would be on board.
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by WellThatAgedWell »

Why don’t we all just come back in 3 years and ask if the deal worked out :lol:. I’m thinking lots of those who were offered the deal won’t be around anyways because it’s not a whole lot of money to walk away from in the big picture.

If companies want people to stick around they need to stop using coercion, pay pilots more competitive with the rest of the world, and offer benefits that are more competitive with the rest of the world. Here in Canada that never happens, we just talk about how it seems like it is coming, or might happen.
tbaylx wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:17 pm In recognition of Flair pilots' contributions and efforts through a challenging summer
If the pay is for the contributions of this summer, why are they waiting three years to pay it out? Next summer might be a new challenge, and might warrant a new bonus! Oh right… this is not for just this summer, this is for the next three summers. Doesn’t sound so juicy eh. The bonus is diluted, and we know in three years we will taste how watered down this junk really is. We just can’t see it yet.
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by photofly »

WellThatAgedWell wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:15 am If companies want people to stick around they need to stop using coercion
Someone around here (can’t remember who) used to point out that giving people money to turn up to work is a form of coercion. If they truly wanted to stick around of course they’d work for free.
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by atpilot »

Apestogetherstrong wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:42 pm
flying4dollars wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:59 am
WellThatAgedWell wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:41 pm Screw retention bonuses. 10k a year bonus so what? So that they don't leave for a job south of the border that pays 3x the salary?

If they want to recognize the hard work for this summer, pay the pilots now for the work this summer. A bonus with these conditions is just a scam to try and keep people around. It's not worth it.
Ok wait a minute, let me get something straight. The salaries are increasing fairly significantly AND they are offering a bonus on top to keep you around and you're STILL complaining? How is this even a scam?

I've flown with guys like you. Never happy about anything no matter where you are. Am I right?

What is the FO salary increasing to?
Rumour is 0%. Maybe I'm wrong...I hope that I'm wrong.
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by Arnie Pye »

atpilot wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:15 pm
Rumour is 0%. Maybe I'm wrong...I hope that I'm wrong.
This is the only rumour out there regarding FO pay. I hope it is incorrect given that inflation just took away 10% of the take-home pay.
WellThatAgedWell wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:15 am Why don’t we all just come back in 3 years and ask if the deal worked out :lol:. I’m thinking lots of those who were offered the deal won’t be around anyways because it’s not a whole lot of money to walk away from in the big picture.

If companies want people to stick around they need to stop using coercion, pay pilots more competitive with the rest of the world, and offer benefits that are more competitive with the rest of the world. Here in Canada that never happens, we just talk about how it seems like it is coming, or might happen.
tbaylx wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:17 pm In recognition of Flair pilots' contributions and efforts through a challenging summer
If the pay is for the contributions of this summer, why are they waiting three years to pay it out? Next summer might be a new challenge, and might warrant a new bonus! Oh right… this is not for just this summer, this is for the next three summers. Doesn’t sound so juicy eh. The bonus is diluted, and we know in three years we will taste how watered down this junk really is. We just can’t see it yet.
I haven't ran into a single person that is impressed with the bonus scheme. the only people intent on collecting it are too old to go somewhere else and were going to stay in the first place.

I suspect it is a chess move intent on proving to the minister of labour that Flair tried their very hardest and just can't find qualified Canadian pilots. Therefore, they need to bring in TFW pilots and offer them a path to citizenship. All this will do is work to suppress WAWCON in the future.
Soyer wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:54 am
Joeschumer wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:20 pm I’m sorry but like most things in Canadian aviation, this retention bonus is a joke. Even with the bonuses counted yearly on top of flair salaries, this is still one of the lowest paying 737 jobs in Canada. Not to mention, you won’t see that money for 3 years only to then pay massive taxes on it. Bonuses that are awarded upon reaching several gates or milestones would be a much more attractive proposition than this 3 year promise costing the company nada for 3 whole years! Think about that!

As for the pay-scale hope, flair management has been promising that for over a year now with no action, if they really wanted to show their pilots they mean business there would have been an LOU signed a long time ago. Instead they are riding the promise wave for as long as possible, if it will even come to pass. (Of course if that happens most other carriers will also raise theirs and these bonuses will still be a joke.)

The company isn’t stupid, promises cost them nothing, and pilots accepting promises and having hope are a managements best friend.

Sadly, a lot of the comments in this thread reinforce how and why canadian aviation and it’s pilots got to their current state. We always go after promises while have near infinite hope that things will change, and that has got to be the fatal flaw of being a Canadian pilot.

I’m sure everybody realizes that we are in a hard pilot shortage at the moment, there are very few industries that have the power that we do. All it takes is unity within the pilot group for change to happen, and quickly, that’s all it takes! As somebody above mentioned never accept the first offer, ESPECIALLY if the ball is in your court. (It definitely is)
It's a joke? It is almost identical to the other retention schemes in the country (think Cargojet). Flair management has not been promising anything as the company and ALPA are in negotiations and, by the way, negotiations did not begin until January because of the move from Unifor to ALPA and that sits squarely with the pilots. Negotiations are ongoing and we will get a deal once that it is complete. Comments about a pay LOU are ridiculous - it doesn't work that way. But the bonus certainly telegraphs the company's intention to pay competitively and I high doubt the ALPA team would have agreed to it if the negotiations were not going well.
If things were going well, we would have had a contract to vote on by now. So far, we are 200+ days into negotiations with no end in sight. Someone smarter than me would probably know the answer to this - isn't there a legal limit on the length of negotiations in Canada?

I think negotiations are going well from the company perspective. Every rumour I've heard hit the flight deck, ALPA is giving away the farm. Hope I'm wrong and yes, they are just rumours so far.
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by Soyer »

Arnie Pye wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:01 am
atpilot wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:15 pm
Rumour is 0%. Maybe I'm wrong...I hope that I'm wrong.
This is the only rumour out there regarding FO pay. I hope it is incorrect given that inflation just took away 10% of the take-home pay.
WellThatAgedWell wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:15 am Why don’t we all just come back in 3 years and ask if the deal worked out :lol:. I’m thinking lots of those who were offered the deal won’t be around anyways because it’s not a whole lot of money to walk away from in the big picture.

If companies want people to stick around they need to stop using coercion, pay pilots more competitive with the rest of the world, and offer benefits that are more competitive with the rest of the world. Here in Canada that never happens, we just talk about how it seems like it is coming, or might happen.
tbaylx wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:17 pm In recognition of Flair pilots' contributions and efforts through a challenging summer
If the pay is for the contributions of this summer, why are they waiting three years to pay it out? Next summer might be a new challenge, and might warrant a new bonus! Oh right… this is not for just this summer, this is for the next three summers. Doesn’t sound so juicy eh. The bonus is diluted, and we know in three years we will taste how watered down this junk really is. We just can’t see it yet.
I haven't ran into a single person that is impressed with the bonus scheme. the only people intent on collecting it are too old to go somewhere else and were going to stay in the first place.

I suspect it is a chess move intent on proving to the minister of labour that Flair tried their very hardest and just can't find qualified Canadian pilots. Therefore, they need to bring in TFW pilots and offer them a path to citizenship. All this will do is work to suppress WAWCON in the future.
Soyer wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:54 am
Joeschumer wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:20 pm I’m sorry but like most things in Canadian aviation, this retention bonus is a joke. Even with the bonuses counted yearly on top of flair salaries, this is still one of the lowest paying 737 jobs in Canada. Not to mention, you won’t see that money for 3 years only to then pay massive taxes on it. Bonuses that are awarded upon reaching several gates or milestones would be a much more attractive proposition than this 3 year promise costing the company nada for 3 whole years! Think about that!

As for the pay-scale hope, flair management has been promising that for over a year now with no action, if they really wanted to show their pilots they mean business there would have been an LOU signed a long time ago. Instead they are riding the promise wave for as long as possible, if it will even come to pass. (Of course if that happens most other carriers will also raise theirs and these bonuses will still be a joke.)

The company isn’t stupid, promises cost them nothing, and pilots accepting promises and having hope are a managements best friend.

Sadly, a lot of the comments in this thread reinforce how and why canadian aviation and it’s pilots got to their current state. We always go after promises while have near infinite hope that things will change, and that has got to be the fatal flaw of being a Canadian pilot.

I’m sure everybody realizes that we are in a hard pilot shortage at the moment, there are very few industries that have the power that we do. All it takes is unity within the pilot group for change to happen, and quickly, that’s all it takes! As somebody above mentioned never accept the first offer, ESPECIALLY if the ball is in your court. (It definitely is)
It's a joke? It is almost identical to the other retention schemes in the country (think Cargojet). Flair management has not been promising anything as the company and ALPA are in negotiations and, by the way, negotiations did not begin until January because of the move from Unifor to ALPA and that sits squarely with the pilots. Negotiations are ongoing and we will get a deal once that it is complete. Comments about a pay LOU are ridiculous - it doesn't work that way. But the bonus certainly telegraphs the company's intention to pay competitively and I high doubt the ALPA team would have agreed to it if the negotiations were not going well.
If things were going well, we would have had a contract to vote on by now. So far, we are 200+ days into negotiations with no end in sight. Someone smarter than me would probably know the answer to this - isn't there a legal limit on the length of negotiations in Canada?

I think negotiations are going well from the company perspective. Every rumour I've heard hit the flight deck, ALPA is giving away the farm. Hope I'm wrong and yes, they are just rumours so far.
FO pay!!!!??? Why would we negotiate for FO pay? As it is the FO pay at Flair is the highest in the country for a 737 in the first 3 years. By the 3rd year every FO here will have been eligible for an upgrade and be in the left seat. The left seat progression is what is important. I also presume that the contract that will be signed will be under 5 years so teh FO pay is a battle for the next round of negotiations.

The bonus scheme is exactly that - bonus after 3 years. Effectively it means we are earning an extra $16,000 plus a year so what is there to complain about? The new contract should put captains in a competitive pay range so add in the bonus and we should be a great spot. If you plan to leave in 3 years or less why should you benefit. The rest of who stay will benefit.

If you talk with the negotiators they will tell you things are progressing well and the company has not dragged things along. If they were giving away the farm this would have been wrapped up long ago. Have some patience and respect for the ALPA team doing the work. Rumours do a dis-service to everyone.
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by AirportCoffee »

The bonus scheme is exactly that - bonus after 3 years. Effectively it means we are earning an extra $16,000 plus a year so what is there to complain about?
Must be some good kool aid you guys have over there! :lol:
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by Arnie Pye »

Soyer wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:19 pm
Arnie Pye wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:01 am
atpilot wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:15 pm
Rumour is 0%. Maybe I'm wrong...I hope that I'm wrong.
This is the only rumour out there regarding FO pay. I hope it is incorrect given that inflation just took away 10% of the take-home pay.
WellThatAgedWell wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:15 am Why don’t we all just come back in 3 years and ask if the deal worked out :lol:. I’m thinking lots of those who were offered the deal won’t be around anyways because it’s not a whole lot of money to walk away from in the big picture.

If companies want people to stick around they need to stop using coercion, pay pilots more competitive with the rest of the world, and offer benefits that are more competitive with the rest of the world. Here in Canada that never happens, we just talk about how it seems like it is coming, or might happen.



If the pay is for the contributions of this summer, why are they waiting three years to pay it out? Next summer might be a new challenge, and might warrant a new bonus! Oh right… this is not for just this summer, this is for the next three summers. Doesn’t sound so juicy eh. The bonus is diluted, and we know in three years we will taste how watered down this junk really is. We just can’t see it yet.
I haven't ran into a single person that is impressed with the bonus scheme. the only people intent on collecting it are too old to go somewhere else and were going to stay in the first place.

I suspect it is a chess move intent on proving to the minister of labour that Flair tried their very hardest and just can't find qualified Canadian pilots. Therefore, they need to bring in TFW pilots and offer them a path to citizenship. All this will do is work to suppress WAWCON in the future.
Soyer wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:54 am

It's a joke? It is almost identical to the other retention schemes in the country (think Cargojet). Flair management has not been promising anything as the company and ALPA are in negotiations and, by the way, negotiations did not begin until January because of the move from Unifor to ALPA and that sits squarely with the pilots. Negotiations are ongoing and we will get a deal once that it is complete. Comments about a pay LOU are ridiculous - it doesn't work that way. But the bonus certainly telegraphs the company's intention to pay competitively and I high doubt the ALPA team would have agreed to it if the negotiations were not going well.
If things were going well, we would have had a contract to vote on by now. So far, we are 200+ days into negotiations with no end in sight. Someone smarter than me would probably know the answer to this - isn't there a legal limit on the length of negotiations in Canada?

I think negotiations are going well from the company perspective. Every rumour I've heard hit the flight deck, ALPA is giving away the farm. Hope I'm wrong and yes, they are just rumours so far.
FO pay!!!!??? Why would we negotiate for FO pay? As it is the FO pay at Flair is the highest in the country for a 737 in the first 3 years. By the 3rd year every FO here will have been eligible for an upgrade and be in the left seat. The left seat progression is what is important. I also presume that the contract that will be signed will be under 5 years so teh FO pay is a battle for the next round of negotiations.

The bonus scheme is exactly that - bonus after 3 years. Effectively it means we are earning an extra $16,000 plus a year so what is there to complain about? The new contract should put captains in a competitive pay range so add in the bonus and we should be a great spot. If you plan to leave in 3 years or less why should you benefit. The rest of who stay will benefit.

If you talk with the negotiators they will tell you things are progressing well and the company has not dragged things along. If they were giving away the farm this would have been wrapped up long ago. Have some patience and respect for the ALPA team doing the work. Rumours do a dis-service to everyone.
You would negotiate FO pay because this is a contract negotiation and that is what you do - negotiate. You would want to address FO pay because inflation just gave them a 10% decrease in their purchasing power and because they are human beings who also have wives, kids and bills to provide for. You can't just argue that in 2019, they were the best paid FO's and never again touch the FO pay. Lynx has an accelerator clause in their contract so as soon as we negotiate our pay rate, they automatically get 10% more and Flair FO's are no longer the highest 737 FO in Canada. I'm sure you're aware that you can't pay tomorrow's bills with your future earnings 3 years from now when [if] you get upgraded

I'm glad you love the retention bonus. No one else does. Anyone under the age of 40 will continue to go to Air Canada. Any Captain with experience will go back to EK, QR, etc. The difference in pay and provident fund/retirement savings is way more than $50k. This doesn't reflect service to this point. It values the guy who starts with our 49th airplane the same as someone who has been with the company for the last 2.5 years and has helped take Flair from 1 airplane to 20. It works out to $320/pay cheque after taxes. Too little money, too far in the future (see above regarding paying tomorrow's bills with a pay cheque 3 years in the future). If you're ok with mediocrity, low pay and lip service, then Air Canada has 4 years of flat pay for you.

It isn't hard to find an airline out there that pays $50k more per year for a Captain. This bonus won't stop people from going somewhere that pays this each and every year or allows you to put $50k/year into retirement savings.

Can you guarantee that Flair will be around in 36 months? I hope it will be but I've been around long enough to know it isn't guaranteed. Since this is not negotiated in the collective agreement what happens to the bonus if we are bought out, merged with Lynx, enter into a recession and pull a JetsGo?

I respect the ALPA guys. I wouldn't want the job. I recently spoke with someone on the negotiating team. Got a political non-answer. There is a legal limit on how long negotiations can take and we blew by that long ago. First it was March, then the spring, then early summer. Someone is dragging this along. If it's not the company then I guess it's ...
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by rudder »

Arnie Pye wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:01 am
If things were going well, we would have had a contract to vote on by now. So far, we are 200+ days into negotiations with no end in sight. Someone smarter than me would probably know the answer to this - isn't there a legal limit on the length of negotiations in Canada?
There are timelines contained in the Canada Labour Code. Normally, there is a time based trigger to proceed to conciliation with the assistance of FMCS. However, this step can be delayed subject to mutual consent.

If past the statutory negotiations timeline, either party is free to apply for conciliation.
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by TFTMB heavy »

rudder wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:19 am
Arnie Pye wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:01 am
If things were going well, we would have had a contract to vote on by now. So far, we are 200+ days into negotiations with no end in sight. Someone smarter than me would probably know the answer to this - isn't there a legal limit on the length of negotiations in Canada?
There are timelines contained in the Canada Labour Code. Normally, there is a time based trigger to proceed to conciliation with the assistance of FMCS. However, this step can be delayed subject to mutual consent.

If past the statutory negotiations timeline, either party is free to apply for conciliation.
There is no limit on direct bargaining in Canada. Once a party is dissatisfied with progress they can file a notice of dispute with the Minister and he will appoint a conciliator. The conciliator will have a 60 day time limit unless both parties agree to extend. A smart negotiating committee/MEC will time it so the right to strike falls in a peak travel demand period.

More info here https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-soc ... ining.html
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by Apestogetherstrong »

Arnie Pye wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:57 am
Soyer wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:19 pm
Arnie Pye wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:01 am

This is the only rumour out there regarding FO pay. I hope it is incorrect given that inflation just took away 10% of the take-home pay.



I haven't ran into a single person that is impressed with the bonus scheme. the only people intent on collecting it are too old to go somewhere else and were going to stay in the first place.

I suspect it is a chess move intent on proving to the minister of labour that Flair tried their very hardest and just can't find qualified Canadian pilots. Therefore, they need to bring in TFW pilots and offer them a path to citizenship. All this will do is work to suppress WAWCON in the future.



If things were going well, we would have had a contract to vote on by now. So far, we are 200+ days into negotiations with no end in sight. Someone smarter than me would probably know the answer to this - isn't there a legal limit on the length of negotiations in Canada?

I think negotiations are going well from the company perspective. Every rumour I've heard hit the flight deck, ALPA is giving away the farm. Hope I'm wrong and yes, they are just rumours so far.
FO pay!!!!??? Why would we negotiate for FO pay? As it is the FO pay at Flair is the highest in the country for a 737 in the first 3 years. By the 3rd year every FO here will have been eligible for an upgrade and be in the left seat. The left seat progression is what is important. I also presume that the contract that will be signed will be under 5 years so teh FO pay is a battle for the next round of negotiations.

The bonus scheme is exactly that - bonus after 3 years. Effectively it means we are earning an extra $16,000 plus a year so what is there to complain about? The new contract should put captains in a competitive pay range so add in the bonus and we should be a great spot. If you plan to leave in 3 years or less why should you benefit. The rest of who stay will benefit.

If you talk with the negotiators they will tell you things are progressing well and the company has not dragged things along. If they were giving away the farm this would have been wrapped up long ago. Have some patience and respect for the ALPA team doing the work. Rumours do a dis-service to everyone.
You would negotiate FO pay because this is a contract negotiation and that is what you do - negotiate. You would want to address FO pay because inflation just gave them a 10% decrease in their purchasing power and because they are human beings who also have wives, kids and bills to provide for. You can't just argue that in 2019, they were the best paid FO's and never again touch the FO pay. Lynx has an accelerator clause in their contract so as soon as we negotiate our pay rate, they automatically get 10% more and Flair FO's are no longer the highest 737 FO in Canada. I'm sure you're aware that you can't pay tomorrow's bills with your future earnings 3 years from now when [if] you get upgraded

I'm glad you love the retention bonus. No one else does. Anyone under the age of 40 will continue to go to Air Canada. Any Captain with experience will go back to EK, QR, etc. The difference in pay and provident fund/retirement savings is way more than $50k. This doesn't reflect service to this point. It values the guy who starts with our 49th airplane the same as someone who has been with the company for the last 2.5 years and has helped take Flair from 1 airplane to 20. It works out to $320/pay cheque after taxes. Too little money, too far in the future (see above regarding paying tomorrow's bills with a pay cheque 3 years in the future). If you're ok with mediocrity, low pay and lip service, then Air Canada has 4 years of flat pay for you.

It isn't hard to find an airline out there that pays $50k more per year for a Captain. This bonus won't stop people from going somewhere that pays this each and every year or allows you to put $50k/year into retirement savings.

Can you guarantee that Flair will be around in 36 months? I hope it will be but I've been around long enough to know it isn't guaranteed. Since this is not negotiated in the collective agreement what happens to the bonus if we are bought out, merged with Lynx, enter into a recession and pull a JetsGo?

I respect the ALPA guys. I wouldn't want the job. I recently spoke with someone on the negotiating team. Got a political non-answer. There is a legal limit on how long negotiations can take and we blew by that long ago. First it was March, then the spring, then early summer. Someone is dragging this along. If it's not the company then I guess it's ...
Agreed. FO pay needs to increase since A/C is getting rid of the flat pay and WJ is negotiating its new contract. If they decide to increase the pay, Flair FO’s would not have any reason to stay back. FO rate should be $90/hrmin Capt $160/hr min. Its not just the cost of inflation but also need to stay competitive.
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Apestogetherstrong
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by Apestogetherstrong »

Arnie Pye wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:57 am
Soyer wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:19 pm
Arnie Pye wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:01 am

This is the only rumour out there regarding FO pay. I hope it is incorrect given that inflation just took away 10% of the take-home pay.



I haven't ran into a single person that is impressed with the bonus scheme. the only people intent on collecting it are too old to go somewhere else and were going to stay in the first place.

I suspect it is a chess move intent on proving to the minister of labour that Flair tried their very hardest and just can't find qualified Canadian pilots. Therefore, they need to bring in TFW pilots and offer them a path to citizenship. All this will do is work to suppress WAWCON in the future.



If things were going well, we would have had a contract to vote on by now. So far, we are 200+ days into negotiations with no end in sight. Someone smarter than me would probably know the answer to this - isn't there a legal limit on the length of negotiations in Canada?

I think negotiations are going well from the company perspective. Every rumour I've heard hit the flight deck, ALPA is giving away the farm. Hope I'm wrong and yes, they are just rumours so far.
FO pay!!!!??? Why would we negotiate for FO pay? As it is the FO pay at Flair is the highest in the country for a 737 in the first 3 years. By the 3rd year every FO here will have been eligible for an upgrade and be in the left seat. The left seat progression is what is important. I also presume that the contract that will be signed will be under 5 years so teh FO pay is a battle for the next round of negotiations.

The bonus scheme is exactly that - bonus after 3 years. Effectively it means we are earning an extra $16,000 plus a year so what is there to complain about? The new contract should put captains in a competitive pay range so add in the bonus and we should be a great spot. If you plan to leave in 3 years or less why should you benefit. The rest of who stay will benefit.

If you talk with the negotiators they will tell you things are progressing well and the company has not dragged things along. If they were giving away the farm this would have been wrapped up long ago. Have some patience and respect for the ALPA team doing the work. Rumours do a dis-service to everyone.
You would negotiate FO pay because this is a contract negotiation and that is what you do - negotiate. You would want to address FO pay because inflation just gave them a 10% decrease in their purchasing power and because they are human beings who also have wives, kids and bills to provide for. You can't just argue that in 2019, they were the best paid FO's and never again touch the FO pay. Lynx has an accelerator clause in their contract so as soon as we negotiate our pay rate, they automatically get 10% more and Flair FO's are no longer the highest 737 FO in Canada. I'm sure you're aware that you can't pay tomorrow's bills with your future earnings 3 years from now when [if] you get upgraded

I'm glad you love the retention bonus. No one else does. Anyone under the age of 40 will continue to go to Air Canada. Any Captain with experience will go back to EK, QR, etc. The difference in pay and provident fund/retirement savings is way more than $50k. This doesn't reflect service to this point. It values the guy who starts with our 49th airplane the same as someone who has been with the company for the last 2.5 years and has helped take Flair from 1 airplane to 20. It works out to $320/pay cheque after taxes. Too little money, too far in the future (see above regarding paying tomorrow's bills with a pay cheque 3 years in the future). If you're ok with mediocrity, low pay and lip service, then Air Canada has 4 years of flat pay for you.

It isn't hard to find an airline out there that pays $50k more per year for a Captain. This bonus won't stop people from going somewhere that pays this each and every year or allows you to put $50k/year into retirement savings.

Can you guarantee that Flair will be around in 36 months? I hope it will be but I've been around long enough to know it isn't guaranteed. Since this is not negotiated in the collective agreement what happens to the bonus if we are bought out, merged with Lynx, enter into a recession and pull a JetsGo?

I respect the ALPA guys. I wouldn't want the job. I recently spoke with someone on the negotiating team. Got a political non-answer. There is a legal limit on how long negotiations can take and we blew by that long ago. First it was March, then the spring, then early summer. Someone is dragging this along. If it's not the company then I guess it's ...
Agreed. FO pay needs to increase since A/C is getting rid of the flat pay and WJ is negotiating its new contract. If they decide to increase the pay, Flair FO’s would not have any reason to stay back. FO rate should be $90/hrmin Capt $160/hr min. Its not just the cost of inflation but also need to stay competitive.
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pitottubey
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by pitottubey »

Apestogetherstrong wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:54 pm
Arnie Pye wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:57 am
Soyer wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:19 pm

FO pay!!!!??? Why would we negotiate for FO pay? As it is the FO pay at Flair is the highest in the country for a 737 in the first 3 years. By the 3rd year every FO here will have been eligible for an upgrade and be in the left seat. The left seat progression is what is important. I also presume that the contract that will be signed will be under 5 years so teh FO pay is a battle for the next round of negotiations.

The bonus scheme is exactly that - bonus after 3 years. Effectively it means we are earning an extra $16,000 plus a year so what is there to complain about? The new contract should put captains in a competitive pay range so add in the bonus and we should be a great spot. If you plan to leave in 3 years or less why should you benefit. The rest of who stay will benefit.

If you talk with the negotiators they will tell you things are progressing well and the company has not dragged things along. If they were giving away the farm this would have been wrapped up long ago. Have some patience and respect for the ALPA team doing the work. Rumours do a dis-service to everyone.
You would negotiate FO pay because this is a contract negotiation and that is what you do - negotiate. You would want to address FO pay because inflation just gave them a 10% decrease in their purchasing power and because they are human beings who also have wives, kids and bills to provide for. You can't just argue that in 2019, they were the best paid FO's and never again touch the FO pay. Lynx has an accelerator clause in their contract so as soon as we negotiate our pay rate, they automatically get 10% more and Flair FO's are no longer the highest 737 FO in Canada. I'm sure you're aware that you can't pay tomorrow's bills with your future earnings 3 years from now when [if] you get upgraded

I'm glad you love the retention bonus. No one else does. Anyone under the age of 40 will continue to go to Air Canada. Any Captain with experience will go back to EK, QR, etc. The difference in pay and provident fund/retirement savings is way more than $50k. This doesn't reflect service to this point. It values the guy who starts with our 49th airplane the same as someone who has been with the company for the last 2.5 years and has helped take Flair from 1 airplane to 20. It works out to $320/pay cheque after taxes. Too little money, too far in the future (see above regarding paying tomorrow's bills with a pay cheque 3 years in the future). If you're ok with mediocrity, low pay and lip service, then Air Canada has 4 years of flat pay for you.

It isn't hard to find an airline out there that pays $50k more per year for a Captain. This bonus won't stop people from going somewhere that pays this each and every year or allows you to put $50k/year into retirement savings.

Can you guarantee that Flair will be around in 36 months? I hope it will be but I've been around long enough to know it isn't guaranteed. Since this is not negotiated in the collective agreement what happens to the bonus if we are bought out, merged with Lynx, enter into a recession and pull a JetsGo?

I respect the ALPA guys. I wouldn't want the job. I recently spoke with someone on the negotiating team. Got a political non-answer. There is a legal limit on how long negotiations can take and we blew by that long ago. First it was March, then the spring, then early summer. Someone is dragging this along. If it's not the company then I guess it's ...
Agreed. FO pay needs to increase since A/C is getting rid of the flat pay and WJ is negotiating its new contract. If they decide to increase the pay, Flair FO’s would not have any reason to stay back. FO rate should be $90/hrmin Capt $160/hr min. Its not just the cost of inflation but also need to stay competitive.

Wait AC is getting rid of the flat pay? Where can I see more information on this. Is this confirmed?
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TC.Enforcement
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by TC.Enforcement »

Arnie Pye wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:01 am I'm glad you love the retention bonus. No one else does. Anyone under the age of 40 will continue to go to Air Canada.
Speak for yourself. I love the bonus. I was already on planning on staying, so this is just free money. I'm well under 40 and have ZERO desire to go to AC. Many of my colleagues at my base have actually said the same thing. It's so tiring listening to pilots bitch about salary especially when we are already paid a significant fraction more then the general population for a job that quite frankly isn't that hard and doesn't have a difficult barrier to entry.
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Apestogetherstrong
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Re: Recruiting and Retention Bonus

Post by Apestogetherstrong »

TC.Enforcement wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:40 pm
Arnie Pye wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:01 am I'm glad you love the retention bonus. No one else does. Anyone under the age of 40 will continue to go to Air Canada.
Speak for yourself. I love the bonus. I was already on planning on staying, so this is just free money. I'm well under 40 and have ZERO desire to go to AC. Many of my colleagues at my base have actually said the same thing. It's so tiring listening to pilots bitch about salary especially when we are already paid a significant fraction more then the general population for a job that quite frankly isn't that hard and doesn't have a difficult barrier to entry.
Look at the salaries down south? Or even globally. Pilots bitching about salaries?? They are well within their right. Pilots must unite for better wages and working conditions. Does inflation mean nothing to you?
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