ALPA is not the answer, current ACPA isn't either

[Straight2Secondary]

This push to get ALPA to replace ACPA is mis guided by a group of pilots who think they know. Pilots 4 Change, is really Pilots 4 ALPA, and they say a bunch of nice things with no follow through. The transparency is a big one, now that they have rules to play by, they are falling apart, they can't just go on slack, ACpilots and spout off nonsense, they are actually being held accountable and they are failing. Why haven't they posted any of the MEC minutes since the spring ? All of the discipline issues and resignations, nothing, the outside just sees a failed coup, run by immature, inexperienced pilots trying to talk tough with no follow through.

Now all the P4C group does is blame the constitution for their inability to bring change. We have all seen the pilot that fails time and time again and blames everyone else, news flash, you can't fly. P4C, you can't lead, we can bring change to ACPA, but you have failed.

ALPA is not the answer. We don't have to look far to see the short comings of ALPA. WestJet has continued to be decimated under ALPA representation.

Now Toronto has a chair that gets kicked out of charity hockey tournaments for fighting colleagues and going after refs. Oohhh but he's a pitbull. If you think he is the answer, you may as well bet on Tony winning in court to. The pitbull left the US and came to Canada that all the "it's our time" group is so horny for. Follow your Pitbull to your demise, I've seen this before, know the players and you guys are going to fail again.

P4Cs hand has been shown face up before the dealer even sat at the table and quite frankly, it's embarassing.

We are better than what P4C is selling, more professional, more capable and the solution is within ACPA. It's broken right now, but like everything, You get what you pay for.

Make being an elected ACPA rep a respected position again, make it more lucrative than being a manager. We need better quality reps and we have lots but it's not worth it for any of them.

This isn't KW either, P4C seems to be scared of him though, which immediately makes me think he is on to something. This is a silent majority member who is fed up with P4C embarassing me and pretending to represent my profession.

[Fanblade]

We were down this road a decade ago. Here is the governance report recommendations that flowed from that review. It’s worth the read. We spent a few years and lots of $ assessing ourselves. Then we didn’t follow through.

Doing it again is a kin to banging your head against the wall.

It is exceptionally difficult to get anything done within ACPA. ACPA is designed to trap and staple down communication. I wouldn’t be too critical of P4C. They may not have broken through the wall of imposed legal NDA silence but at least they got close.

So close it took getting rid of two of them to shut their progress down.

Truth be told no one is looking to fix ACPA. Those that support ACPA think everything is fine. They will resist change. Those looking for change have started to look beyond ACPA.

The last 10 years has produced a litany of corpses thinking they can change ACPA. All you get is a target on your back.

[Fanblade]

I just noticed that was your first post.

The new YYZ LEC chair is not a pit bull. Not by a long shot. We are just so used to wannabe MLO’s in elected positions that balanced looks extreme.

You want to hear about a pit bull? Ask around about Rainer Bauer. That was a pit bull. Also the peak of our negotiated contracts.

I see you mentioned KW. That is voting for status quo. I’m not interested in status quo.

[negative_g]

This push to get ALPA to replace ACPA is mis guided by a group of pilots who think they know. Pilots 4 Change, is really Pilots 4 ALPA, and they say a bunch of nice things with no follow through. The transparency is a big one, now that they have rules to play by, they are falling apart, they can't just go on slack, ACpilots and spout off nonsense, they are actually being held accountable and they are failing. Why haven't they posted any of the MEC minutes since the spring ? All of the discipline issues and resignations, nothing, the outside just sees a failed coup, run by immature, inexperienced pilots trying to talk tough with no follow through.

Now all the P4C group does is blame the constitution for their inability to bring change. We have all seen the pilot that fails time and time again and blames everyone else, news flash, you can't fly. P4C, you can't lead, we can bring change to ACPA, but you have failed.

ALPA is not the answer. We don't have to look far to see the short comings of ALPA. WestJet has continued to be decimated under ALPA representation.

Now Toronto has a chair that gets kicked out of charity hockey tournaments for fighting colleagues and going after refs. Oohhh but he's a pitbull. If you think he is the answer, you may as well bet on Tony winning in court to. The pitbull left the US and came to Canada that all the "it's our time" group is so horny for. Follow your Pitbull to your demise, I've seen this before, know the players and you guys are going to fail again.

P4Cs hand has been shown face up before the dealer even sat at the table and quite frankly, it's embarassing.

We are better than what P4C is selling, more professional, more capable and the solution is within ACPA. It's broken right now, but like everything, You get what you pay for.

Make being an elected ACPA rep a respected position again, make it more lucrative than being a manager. We need better quality reps and we have lots but it's not worth it for any of them.

This isn't KW either, P4C seems to be scared of him though, which immediately makes me think he is on to something. This is a silent majority member who is fed up with P4C embarassing me and pretending to represent my profession.

Where's the old man yells at clouds meme when you need it?

[Curiousflyer]

ALPA is not the answer. We don't have to look far to see the short comings of ALPA. WestJet has continued to be decimated under ALPA representation.

ALPA has done a great job at WestJet. They got every pilot about $700k worth of wage increases over their career with one improvement, years of service carry over from right seat to left seat. No one at AC will ever see this kind of windfall gain with ACPA at the helm, nor has it ever happened in ACPAs history. This was something the WJPA said was a “line in the sand for the company”… now where have we heard that before hmm? Cargo LOU 10% less?
WestJet got Swoop pilots on common employer, fixed the out of seniority off the street hires AND got one to one years of service swoop to WestJet in less than a year. How long did it take ACPA to get that with Rouge pilots? And at what bargaining capital?

They are already starting up their second negotiations and ACPA is still stuck with a 10 year framework. I’m under no illusion that merging with ALPA will solve all of AC pilots problems, but it will solve the governance, communication (hell ACPA can’t even approve a damn social media policy), and negotiating problems.

[YesMassaPayson]

ALPA BAD MANAGEMENT GOOD

P4C BAD EVERYTHING FINE

MORE OF THE SAME

ACPA is a dead brand. Like Enron or ValuJet.

You can't fix ACPA with more ACPA. The best time for change was 10 years ago, the next best time is now - and the membership agrees.

[Westcoast pilot]

OP is correct in many ways, however, I’d rather have a P4C candidate in the MEC than have NL who eloquently stated to furlough pilots asking for assistance, “that it might be prudent to seek employment in different industries.” He would rather you just go away and stop making waves than fight for your livelihood and wellbeing. Shame on him! A real set of balls on him to even put his name in the running.

[Mr. North]

Another brilliant first post from an ACPA dinosaur/management wannabe.

Make being an elected ACPA rep a respected position again, make it more lucrative than being a manager. We need better quality reps and we have lots but it's not worth it for any of them.

Gotta love this little nugget of naked self-interest amongst all that mud slinging and half-truths. Respect is EARNED, not PAID! The ACPA old guard is among the most self-serving and elitist of our so called "association". Lets get some more entitled pricks in there, what could go wrong!

Union Leadership 101: Individuals seeking personal financial gain are the last people you want leading a union.

Union work is a thankless job and the best leaders aren't there for the money. Too bad a couple of them just got fired!

[ZBBYLW]

The vast majority of pilots I fly with (mostly on CWIPP) think ALPA is the answer.

The chair and VC in YVR ironically, probably have done more too sink the ACPA ship thann help it.

All ACPA has done in my time here has reduced membership engagement and lessened our collective futures. Any gain that we did secure no longer benefits us anyhow (pay cuts for WB FO so the EMBs can get a pay raise, Rouge step on pay so now Lou 74 gone) or we never really even get what we are contractually owed through absent contact enforcement.

ACPA has some strengths (mainly some of our volunteers) but if we were to give them more resources maybe they can have a bigger impact.

A great example of compairing ACPA vs ALPA lines up with how we negotiate and vote.

The last several times we have finished negots we are presented with a nice sales pitch highlights the wins but without much substance. Fast forward a few months and the new CA comes out with final wording and we start getting surprised with things not mentioned or what the companies interpretation in something.

Compare that to United's latest round of negotiations (which they actually finished but went back to the table as it was clear it wasn't going to pass). They came out to their members saying we completed negotiations however will need to take a few months to finalize the wording prior to bringing it out for a vote.

ACPA has had its time. Unfortunately many of the wounds are self inflicted but it's time to move on.

[rudder]

It is clear that ACPA has governance issues. That is a structural problem. It is not remedied by changing the faces.

The original ACPA acolytes were well intended (if not slightly misguided). They sought autonomy for the AC pilot group. They insisted it would be ‘member driven’.

I am not sure that ACPA 2022 even remotely resembles ACPA 1995.

When the leadership is at war with its membership, and representatives feel more at home sitting in a room with management than their constituents, what you have is an organization that is rotten at its core.

I wish the AC pilots good luck as they seek to find competent representation.

[ReturnoftheMike]

My duly devoted followers -

We have the children of the pumpkin patch rebellion on the run. It is with joy I see an election and an opportunity to decimate this uprising. So with this in mind, I am formally announcing my new official platform:

Nick, Nick, he's our man, ALPA & ACPA can't do it, only Nick the one boy wonder can

That is right my peasants, this single person is the answer to decades of mishaps, errors and blunders. Even my original persona as "Magic Mike" and all those promises of change can't compete with this creed.

While my rule was short lived, it was with pleasure I worked with Nick during his time as the Chair of the Member Services Committee.

It was under his visionary leadership he told furloughs to "seek in employment in different industries" which was in contradiction to every expert in the industry having the foresight to be able to see the greatest labour shortage in history that was merely around the corner.

Despite every other union (including those dues stealing send yo money to 'Merica ALPA) securing a wage subsidy for their pilots, Nick secured pilots with the tried & true "the company wouldn't go for it"

Nick's pledge for change leads us to the next tried & true "ACPA can fix ACPA" ethos. This inventive line of thinking has brought us a decade of wage declines summed up by a Cargo operation that now makes AC pilots the lowest paid wide body operation in the world.

Simpleton Surfs - the days of smirking at Atlas & Kalitta crews have come to an end - that international honor now belongs to the pilots at Canada's Flag Carrier represented by the one & only ACPA. Management fully supports this commitment to Rise Higher by lower wages.

Nick - my tip of that hat to you sir. I look forward to your visionary ideas to fight for the pilots assuming they didn't take your advice and depart the industry.

Cheers, Mike

[Buckle_Up]

ACPA can't be fixed, it is run by the Admin staff and they are the only beneficiary. It needs to be euthanized and put out of OUR misery.

ALPA is the answer, they have the infrastructure to provide the Adult Supervision this Pilot group desperately needs, until it gets back on its feet.

[lownslow]

I continue to fail to understand what changing a single letter in their name will change. Is it not still a structure of both elected and appointed individuals ensuring various contracts are honoured?

What’s the actual difference? Explain it like I’m five.

[rudder]

I continue to fail to understand what changing a single letter in their name will change. Is it not still a structure of both elected and appointed individuals ensuring various contracts are honoured?

What’s the actual difference? Explain it like I’m five.

Infrastructure. Technical support. Subject matter experts. Member of IFALPA.

Constitution. Admin Policy Manual. Rules. Structure. Oversight.

[YULCompanyManDan]

I continue to fail to understand what changing a single letter in their name will change. Is it not still a structure of both elected and appointed individuals ensuring various contracts are honoured?

What’s the actual difference? Explain it like I’m five.

Infrastructure. Technical support. Subject matter experts. Member of IFALPA.

Constitution. Admin Policy Manual. Rules. Structure. Oversight.

Those dip$hits will just send our money south of the border!! Tabarnac!!!

ACPA just needs some small reparations and it will be good! Don't let Pilots 4 ALPA or ALPA lead you off a cliff.

Soon we will all be cargo Commanders thanks to cargo!

Otherwise Transat would have been flying that and then they would have stole all our seniority in the merger that I promised wouldn't happen if we didn't say yes in 2017 but then did happen so we had to stop talking to those ALPA dip$hits because they want Date of Hire but then the company walked away which is Ok because acpa is doing a good job for the pilots!!

Follow me on Facebook for all your communication needs cause acpa comms sucks so you got me and my connections to management. Your trusted source!!

[FL030]

ALPA is the answer.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/mesa-airl ... J8yQ_KWtOw

[Straight2Secondary]

Returnofthemike sounds more like Julian to me, maybe stick to instagram meme accounts. Keep on failing, we won't let you forget.

Andre is your suggestion to vote for in place of Nick? The guy who already quit once and has personally subverted seniority as the Chair of CMSC. Does he even know where to find article 20?

If ACPA is a circus, P4C is taking admission and they will let anyone in.

[negative_g]

Andre is your suggestion to vote for in place of Nick? The guy who already quit once and has personally subverted seniority as the Chair of CMSC. Does he even know where to find article 20?

I think you misspoke and meant to say the former CMSC Chair? Everyone who had to deal with the nonsense that was the VPS system will have something to say about seniority subversion.

Andre has my vote by a long shot. The old guard is flailing lately, last gasps of air like these posts and threads, before they drown and we can finally start pushing things in a different direction. Looking forward to fall VC elections.

[lownslow]

I continue to fail to understand what changing a single letter in their name will change. Is it not still a structure of both elected and appointed individuals ensuring various contracts are honoured?

What’s the actual difference? Explain it like I’m five.

Infrastructure. Technical support. Subject matter experts. Member of IFALPA.

Constitution. Admin Policy Manual. Rules. Structure. Oversight.

But can it fail in all the same ways? None of those things mean anything without organized effort.

[ReturnoftheMike]

Angry ally of the alliance,

There seems to be confusion on the intent of my message and apologize if we got off on the wrong foot as you seem a tad pissy.

I offer my presence in support of your conquest to smash the uprising. The boys have an expectation on me to make an appearance during these times of instability. I am sorry to infuriate a partner in this battle against pernicious children that seek to improve the plight of this pathetic pilot group.

Continue your march Nick & colleagues, victory will be secured soon and we can aspire for further concessions