Standing up for better pay

[strengthinumbers]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/lufthan ... -1.6051411

Lufthansa pilots taking a stand.

Everyone seems to be pushing for better pay and lifestyle. Can Air Canada join the rest of these major airlines, or will we fold as we always do?

[PilotZum]

What we need is a major industry-wide strike. A joint action ACPA/ALPA.

[Inverted2]

Not even a strike. Just refuse overtime, follow the contract to a T, start snagging those little things you overlook on a typical day. Stop offering to do line indoc training and “picus”, book off when fatigued etc.

[lownslow]

Not even a strike. Just refuse overtime, follow the contract to a T, start snagging those little things you overlook on a typical day. Stop offering to do line indoc training and “picus”, book off when fatigued etc.

^this. So much this. Know your contract well and make it painfully obvious what you have been giving for free and that it will no longer be free.

Note: your union legally cannot instruct you to do this outside of contract time, no matter how much you wish they would. They can’t. Live with it. Act anyways.

[Fanblade]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/lufthan ... -1.6051411

Can Air Canada join the rest of these major airlines, or will we fold as we always do?

It will be like always unless the union and its elected officials get changed. ACPA under current leadership will never act in an aggressive manor. Ever. Inflation losses will become permanent. Just like CCAA losses became permanent.

Real unions did not accept bankruptcy losses as permanent. They fought to get them back. Only ACPA accepted them as permanent.

Unless we act. This inflation bump will be yet another CCAA loss or larger. A few years from now we will be standing here wondering why we get paid half as much as everyone else rather than 30% less like today after CCAA.

Your union is more concerned with the company than your pay check. Just ask some of the old guard. You will get answers like “the company is just recovering from Covid, asking for an increase now is not reasonable”.

There will always be a reason why they won’t take on the company. ALWAYS. Good times or bad doesn’t matter.

We can’t compare to the US. We can’t compare to our pre bankruptcy wages. The company is in recovery. We need to compare to Air China as well.

You would think all these statements would come from management. Nope. ACPA.

ACPA is currently an extension of management. We are not getting a nickel beyond cost neutral with them in charge.

[RippleRock]

We will get NOTHING we don't have something to trade. Zero sum bargaining has been ingrained on our psyche.

ACPA has already "strip mined" our contract. There is nothing left to trade for.

Maybe we can all wish for a bit of "goodwill" after decades of pocketing "bargaining chips"??? Good luck with that.

Unless we stand up and demand it, nothing is coming. As long as ACPA is your agent, your expectations will be managed to zero or less than zero. I'm actually quite shocked that they are still representing us after years of consistent failure on the bargaining front.

Stand up, or sit back down. Make your choice. But above all, EJECT ACPA, they are toxic to progress.

[machaltstar]

What we need is a major industry-wide strike. A joint action ACPA/ALPA.

Just get on with it and join ALPA

[alkaseltzer]

What we need is a major industry-wide strike. A joint action ACPA/ALPA.

Just get on with it and join ALPA

Why and why and how does it make it better

[canadian_aviator_4]

Would be interesting to see union leaders disclose how much they are making. I can only imagine how good of a financial incentive they have in place, and how willing they are to protect it, at any cost.

[PostmasterGeneral]

What we need is a major industry-wide strike. A joint action ACPA/ALPA.

Just get on with it and join ALPA

Why and why and how does it make it better

Because it’s not ACPA. Duh…

[Tbayer2021]

What we need is a major industry-wide strike. A joint action ACPA/ALPA.

Just get on with it and join ALPA

Why and why and how does it make it better

You honestly look back at the last 10-20 years of ACPA representation and think, "Yeah I want more of that!"? No one is claiming ALPA this golden saviour, they have their fair share of problems, but they're sure as hell way better than ACPA. It literally doesn't take much to realize this. Look at most ALPA represented carries and their upwards trajectory in pay and benefits over the years. Compare that to the downwards trajectory ACPA has had its members for almost 20 years.

[Fanblade]

What we need is a major industry-wide strike. A joint action ACPA/ALPA.

Just get on with it and join ALPA

Why and why and how does it make it better

Why 1. Hopefully it doesn’t come to a strike. But we will have to demonstrate our willingness to do so. If not, we get not. Farther behind we fall.

Why 2. Unity with other pilot groups. The better WJ does in negotiations, the better we will do. We should walk their picket line with them. We should start one upping each other. Cheer when the other succeeds knowing our turn at the table is next. Rather than one downing each other as ACPA has done, we need to emulate what ALPA has done south of the boarder.

How does it make it better. ACPA is an isolationist union constantly willing to “one down” other pilot groups. ACPA is far more pro Management than they are their own pilot group, let alone the profession at large.

ACPA must go for the betterment of AC pilots and the Canadian profession at large.

ACPA has placed downward pressure on Canadian wages 3 times now.

Rouge. WJ started Swoop before WJ pilots could unionize.

Opened Jazz up to competition. Less than a decade later Jazz is still the sole AC regional. Just at lower wages. It wast ALPA that roasted Jazz’s WAWCON. It was us setting the table so that CR could put a gun to their head.

Cargo? Who knows how that “one down” will play out over time.

[schnitzel2k3]

What we need is a major industry-wide strike. A joint action ACPA/ALPA.

Just get on with it and join ALPA

Why and why and how does it make it better

Because....ACPA sucks, has for years, and is in part why the Canadian industry is so far behind the pilot compensation curve.

There's no fixing ACPA. Need to cut it out like a cancer and get people in there who aren't still nursing from the AC management teet.

[Transition9er2]

Just get on with it and join ALPA

Why and why and how does it make it better

Why 1. Hopefully it doesn’t come to a strike. But we will have to demonstrate our willingness to do so. If not, we get not. Farther behind we fall.

Why 2. Unity with other pilot groups. The better WJ does in negotiations, the better we will do. We should walk their picket line with them. We should start one upping each other. Cheer when the other succeeds knowing our turn at the table is next. Rather than one downing each other as ACPA has done, we need to emulate what ALPA has done south of the boarder.

How does it make it better. ACPA is an isolationist union constantly willing to “one down” other pilot groups. ACPA is far more pro Management than they are their own pilot group, let alone the profession at large.

ACPA must go for the betterment of AC pilots and the Canadian profession at large.

ACPA has placed downward pressure on Canadian wages 3 times now.

Rouge. WJ started Swoop before WJ pilots could unionize.

Opened Jazz up to competition. Less than a decade later Jazz is still the sole AC regional. Just at lower wages. It wast ALPA that roasted Jazz’s WAWCON. It was us setting the table so that CR could put a gun to their head.

Cargo? Who knows how that “one down” will play out over time.

This is a really interesting comment.

Would our industry be better served by having the 2 major airlines under the same pilot union, or separate as it currently stands?

Would the same union representation at the 2 largest airlines try to make our working conditions better as a whole for pilots in Canada, or would they continue to stay in their own lane and keep pilots suppressed when comparing the rest of the world?

Interesting thought.

[Fanblade]

The one difference between Canadian pilot unionism and US pilot unionism.

The US pilots compete with each other to one up themselves. Even pilot groups in different unions. The APA and SWPA for example. It's a mind set. It's an understanding that rising tides float all boats.

In Canada we compete by “one downing” each other. Actually truth be told only one group is doing that. ACPA. ACPA does this because they act as an extension of management.

The most important part is ACPA stops the “one downing” and stops being an extension of management for the pilot profession in Canada to emulate the success of US carriers.

With that said the industry in the US is massive. Three Majors. Three Air Canada's. It would take all three of them to start the “one downing” to have the same impact as ACPA has as a single pilot group in Canada.

ACPA has to stop one downing the industry for it to flourish. The only way to accomplish that is get rid of ACPA. Place the AC pilot group into a greater pilot group.

Preferably not ALPA C. My reasoning here is it won't be good for the profession in Canada if AC pilots become a big fish in a small pond.

We need a baby sitter. A strict one.

I want you to think about a comment made recently by an ACPA elected rep who has been involved for years. He said ACPA pilots can’t expect a raise until WJ gets one.

Think about that comment.

ACPA has participated in lowering Canadian wages and this elected individual off loads the blame for our wages onto WJ pilots for not getting higher pay? Worse he has taken responsibility for AC pay increases and placed them on other pilot groups.

Within ACPA you can’t break through this type of thinking and YOU DO NOT want it infecting other pilot groups in Canada.

The following are all comments from ACPA.

- We can’t compare to the US
- We can’t compare to our pre bankruptcy wages.
- We can’t have a raise until WJ gets one first.
- We should compare to Air China.

[RippleRock]

....then the solution is to get a damn union that doesn't think like that. There is nothing that says we need to follow that mantra. Its self defeating. If we haven't figured that out by now.......we are dumb as rocks.

Teamsters.......or ALPA with a seat at the big table. We fly codeshare with Lufthansa and United. I feel like a "scab" flying their passengers around the globe for such ridiculously low wages. It's friggin embarrassing standing in a Customs line with them.

We are like the cheap prostitutes of the major airlines. We can't even get quality uniforms. My tie is shredding itself and a new one is "indefinitely backordered".

[negative_g]

... It's friggin embarrassing standing in a Customs line with them.

We are like the cheap prostitutes of the major airlines.

Man I feel exactly the same way. I don't have any pride wearing this uniform when other airlines call us things like "the whores of the north" and "Pirates of the north Atlantic".

We whore ourselves out to "capture the flying".

It's sad, really. We have no professional pride anymore.

[RRJetPilot]

You literally have one candidate that is defending capture the flying. Fell for absolutely everything the company said. I will be disappointed if he gets more than 10 votes. He needs to stay as far away as he can from the union. Its disgusting.

[Transition9er2]

There’s a note on slack saying the turnout is still only at 37%. Hugely embarrassing.

Voting closes in a few days and we can barely get 1/3 of our pilot group to show up for this??

Mainly feels like the lower 37% of the pilot list actually showing up.

Crazy

[Fanblade]

There’s a note on slack saying the turnout is still only at 37%. Hugely embarrassing.

Voting closes in a few days and we can barely get 1/3 of our pilot group to show up for this??

Mainly feels like the lower 37% of the pilot list actually showing up.

Crazy

Only the lower 37% showing up to vote wouldn’t be a bad thing

Most people vote in the first 48 hours or the last 48 hours.

Some people have turned back to apathy because they have not seen the change they expected when they voted last fall. Most have no idea how much artillery came out to stop progress. So they assume same old same old. People run on change and nothing happens.

In this instance it is not the case. What we need is reinforcements