There is nothing special about a "first contract with ALPA". They're professionals who have whole teams and departments dedicated to negotiations, nothing new just because it's a new company. Forgive me if I'm skeptical when Flair management pipes into a thread to specifically claim they're not deliberately dragging out the process. After all, you certainly wouldn't say otherwise, now would you?
It is very much in the company's interest to have confusing sections and missing items in the CBA, and I'm sure they're fighting hard to keep as much of that in there as possible.
So true, there's nothing management and the ALPA reps like better than spending hours sorting out emails regarding confusing sections that everyone interprets differently. If you honestly believe that then you aren't working for the same company that I am.
We certainly aren't working for the same company, and I'm very thankful for that. My point is that companies tend to enjoy grey areas in the contract because it lets them interpret things in a way that suits them. I've seen it at every company I've worked for, unionized or not, so I doubt Flair is some magical exception. While the membership can disagree and grievances can be filed, it can be a lengthy process and the company essentially gets to interpret the point in question to their advantage in the mean time.
I saw first hand how hard a company will fight to keep certain things open ended and try to limit the ways the union wanted to tighten up language.
If you don't work here then not sure why you believe your opinion on contract negotiations and the airline are anything other than pure speculation based on your personal experiences at other companies.
We're pretty much a magical exception except it's not magic, it requires having a management team and a MEC that can work together and appreciate each other's point of view and position. Westjet used to have that so we're far from the first. We've all seen what happens at other companies where they brag about how many open grievances there are. We don't enjoy grey areas. We prefer to have clear contract language that prevents misunderstandings or abuse.
We also prefer to continue to operate in a cooperative manner for as long as possible to avoid the issues that seem to be prevalent at other airlines in Canada.
tbaylx wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:23 pm
So true, there's nothing management and the ALPA reps like better than spending hours sorting out emails regarding confusing sections that everyone interprets differently. If you honestly believe that then you aren't working for the same company that I am.
We certainly aren't working for the same company, and I'm very thankful for that. My point is that companies tend to enjoy grey areas in the contract because it lets them interpret things in a way that suits them. I've seen it at every company I've worked for, unionized or not, so I doubt Flair is some magical exception. While the membership can disagree and grievances can be filed, it can be a lengthy process and the company essentially gets to interpret the point in question to their advantage in the mean time.
I saw first hand how hard a company will fight to keep certain things open ended and try to limit the ways the union wanted to tighten up language.
If you don't work here then not sure why you believe your opinion on contract negotiations and the airline are anything other than pure speculation based on your personal experiences at other companies.
We're pretty much a magical exception except it's not magic, it requires having a management team and a MEC that can work together and appreciate each other's point of view and position. Westjet used to have that so we're far from the first. We've all seen what happens at other companies where they brag about how many open grievances there are. We don't enjoy grey areas. We prefer to have clear contract language that prevents misunderstandings or abuse.
We also prefer to continue to operate in a cooperative manner for as long as possible to avoid the issues that seem to be prevalent at other airlines in Canada.
This is just amazing. One doesn't have to work at a place to see whats happening. The contract is taking this long for the exact same reason it always drags out everywhere else. The company doesn't want to give pilot what they're worth, its that pure and simple.
Yes, a management team and MEC that can work together indeed, where have I heard similar words before? You're dancing around the campfire while singing Kumbaya as well? I hope you're right about the clear contract language. But my money is on that contract being just a handful of pages long when it s all said and done. Filled with holes, grey areas and outright omissions due to the fact that bargaining capital had to be spent elsewhere.
But again, sure hope I'm wrong and that it turns out to be a very comprehensive contract that covers all these grey areas companies tend to love.
Personally, I give anyone and everyone the benefit of the doubt until they compromise trust. At this point in time, Flair management has demonstrated themselves as pilots first with reasonable company stand points. End result being a healthy pilot and management relationship.
Professional relationships will outperform ten fold when it comes to an operation. A happy pilot group will perform and adapt to management demands. If the relationship deteriorates, the company will be seen in the news rather quickly.
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Last edited by MAX8 Driver on Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am told that the scheduling section went from 2 paragraphs to 5 pages. There were a lot of holes in the old contract. Also a lot of things that applied better to the context of a charter outfit that are no longer a good fit for a scheduled airline.
Arnie Pye wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:50 pm
I am told that the scheduling section went from 2 paragraphs to 5 pages. There were a lot of holes in the old contract. Also a lot of things that applied better to the context of a charter outfit that are no longer a good fit for a scheduled airline.
That actually could be a real positive. The old CBA wasn't just pre scheduled airline, it was pre CARs duty regs changes, we had 3 bases and the "lmd" yvr/yxx was one base, soon we'll have 7 crew bases...stronger, more precise language would really cut down on the confusion in scheduling and bidding especially when it comes to training new schedulers.
Arnie Pye wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:50 pm
I am told that the scheduling section went from 2 paragraphs to 5 pages. There were a lot of holes in the old contract. Also a lot of things that applied better to the context of a charter outfit that are no longer a good fit for a scheduled airline.
That actually could be a real positive. The old CBA wasn't just pre scheduled airline, it was pre CARs duty regs changes, we had 3 bases and the "lmd" yvr/yxx was one base, soon we'll have 7 crew bases...stronger, more precise language would really cut down on the confusion in scheduling and bidding especially when it comes to training new schedulers.
I'm with you there. I would rather have a contract that applies, is clear and designed for the operation that we are conducting.
I'm sure that some very smart people are working on this (or so I hope). It needs to be finished off ASAP before AC decides to hire off the street again. If AC took half a class just from Flair all at once, it would cripple us over the winter vacation season. Finishing the contract puts us in a much better position with a clear path forward.
