Working Conditions

[Serious Pilot]

Howdy, I had an interview with Flair recently and I just have a couples of questions for those who work there. What does your schedule look like every month? How many extra OT days can you do a month? How are the loads? Do you feel Flair will become profitable and stick around?

[Arnie Pye]

Overall, it is pretty ok.

Schedules vary. Loads were definitely solid over the summer. Too early to say what they will be in the fall once everyone gets back to university etc.
Plan 2.5 to 3 months of training.
Line indoc is anywhere from a few weeks to about a month (captain vs FO)
Once off of line indoc, you'll usually endure a few months of reserve. Reserve will be 20 days.
Over the summer we were understaffed and therefore you would likely get called out for 100% of those days. Fall is here and we are apparently overstaffed.
After reserve, you'll probably have the crap end of the stick for a few more months. Red-eye return flights, short sectors, probably pushing closer to 15-18 days a month.
We are in the shoulder season and there is ZERO OVERTIME available right now. Ottawa base only has one airplane and those guys are either flying once a week at most or being shipped out to other bases to cover stuff elsewhere. Nice break compared to the craziness of the summer.

Flair will likely become profitable (harder when we are paying a ridiculous amount of interest to 777 but I'm told we are doing fine). Will there be enough room for Flair, Lynx, Porter's E2's, Jetlines?? Soon enough you'll see a rash of bankruptcies and mergers. Don't pay attention to anyone who can tell you who will be the winners and losers. No one can predict it. Hitch your wagon to the first offer you get and hang on for the ride.

[goingmissed]

Hitch your wagon to the first offer you get and hang on for the ride.

That's a great sentiment. Six months ago we all thought that a career at WestJet was stable and that Flair's demise was imminent. Now we see that the YYZ Q400 and 787 base is closing and pilots are leaving in droves.

[co-joe]

Arnie's points are mostly valid, except for the reserve, it's 18 days a month not 20. The OT is cyclic, the fall is always our slowest season, but in the spring and summer there were lots of first year FO's making more than junior Captains who chose not to do OT.

The red eye flying so far only happens out of the eastern bases, the new duty regs and the yyz landing curfew make it not worth it for western pilots to fly all night, but Mexico flying may change that. That said, red eyes are a great way for a junior pilot to get much more senior schedules, and there are numerous people at each base flying out their 80 hour blocks in 8-10 days flat. You can't fly that productive of a schedule as a commuter though, you need to live close to the airport for that.

Our loads are solid, and other than the Omicron wave that crushed everyone in jan and feb, and the CTA stuff in the early spring we are flying full aeroplanes everywhere we go. Flair is making money and a lot of the toughest parts of expanding are behind us. There's going to be hurdles, we need that CBA, we will go public, and more bases will keep opening.

[Arnie Pye]

honest question - Is my math incorrect?

4 credits per day x 20 days = 80 hours.

Are reserve pilots getting a special 72 hour block that I didn't know about? Is the company giving them 72 hours so that they don't have to pay out any block growth premium?

[Adam Oke]

Scheduled at a max 85 hrs and/or 18 days with 80 MMG.

[fish4life]

Arnie's points are mostly valid, except for the reserve, it's 18 days a month not 20. The OT is cyclic, the fall is always our slowest season, but in the spring and summer there were lots of first year FO's making more than junior Captains who chose not to do OT.

The red eye flying so far only happens out of the eastern bases, the new duty regs and the yyz landing curfew make it not worth it for western pilots to fly all night, but Mexico flying may change that. That said, red eyes are a great way for a junior pilot to get much more senior schedules, and there are numerous people at each base flying out their 80 hour blocks in 8-10 days flat. You can't fly that productive of a schedule as a commuter though, you need to live close to the airport for that.

Our loads are solid, and other than the Omicron wave that crushed everyone in jan and feb, and the CTA stuff in the early spring we are flying full aeroplanes everywhere we go. Flair is making money and a lot of the toughest parts of expanding are behind us. There's going to be hurdles, we need that CBA, we will go public, and more bases will keep opening.

Wait… are the red eyes turns like yyz-YEG-yyz? If that’s the case I’d like for guys to look in the mirror and ask themselves how alert they are landing back in yyz. Those are long nights and going to get much much worse as winter comes and the whole thing is in the dark.

[co-joe]

honest question - Is my math incorrect?

4 credits per day x 20 days = 80 hours.

Are reserve pilots getting a special 72 hour block that I didn't know about? Is the company giving them 72 hours so that they don't have to pay out any block growth premium?

20.19.1 Pilots shall be scheduled to maximum of eighty-five (85)
credit hours and/or eighteen (18) days once their initial
training is complete.

If you've been scheduled for more than 18 days of reserve you need to contact the ALPA scheduling rep.

[co-joe]

Wait… are the red eyes turns like yyz-YEG-yyz? If that’s the case I’d like for guys to look in the mirror and ask themselves how alert they are landing back in yyz. Those are long nights and going to get much much worse as winter comes and the whole thing is in the dark.

the only red eye I've flown was a ykf-yvr-ykf. We left as the sun set in the west and watched it rise on approach. That was over a year ago though so I don't know what flights are being done out east any more. We follow the CARs, or the CBA whichever is more stringent, if we're fatigued, we book off, and if we think either CARs or CBA are being violated we file SMS reports and follow up to make sure it doesn't happen again. But if you're a pilot, you know that and you're just trolling.

[fish4life]

Wait… are the red eyes turns like yyz-YEG-yyz? If that’s the case I’d like for guys to look in the mirror and ask themselves how alert they are landing back in yyz. Those are long nights and going to get much much worse as winter comes and the whole thing is in the dark.

the only red eye I've flown was a ykf-yvr-ykf. We left as the sun set in the west and watched it rise on approach. That was over a year ago though so I don't know what flights are being done out east any more. We follow the CARs, or the CBA whichever is more stringent, if we're fatigued, we book off, and if we think either CARs or CBA are being violated we file SMS reports and follow up to make sure it doesn't happen again. But if you're a pilot, you know that and you're just trolling.

I’m a pilot and would never fly a trip like that, 8+ hours in the seat with a red eye sounds insane and would never be allowed where I work thanks to years of fatigue reports. Most of the world a night shift red eye like that wouldn’t be legal, just because it’s CARS compliant doesn’t mean it’s safe.

[Tbayer2021]

Did everyone all of the sudden forget the night cargo world exists? These guys fly all night, multiple legs and they're not exactly crashing anymore planes than the airlines. Is it exhausting? Absolutely! But it's not impossible and the margin of safety isn't as thin as some here make it out to be. I'd know, I did it for 5 years. Also, the cargo airlines in Canada pay more than most airlines, considerably more.

[GreenerPastures]

Wait… are the red eyes turns like yyz-YEG-yyz? If that’s the case I’d like for guys to look in the mirror and ask themselves how alert they are landing back in yyz. Those are long nights and going to get much much worse as winter comes and the whole thing is in the dark.

the only red eye I've flown was a ykf-yvr-ykf. We left as the sun set in the west and watched it rise on approach. That was over a year ago though so I don't know what flights are being done out east any more. We follow the CARs, or the CBA whichever is more stringent, if we're fatigued, we book off, and if we think either CARs or CBA are being violated we file SMS reports and follow up to make sure it doesn't happen again. But if you're a pilot, you know that and you're just trolling.

I’m a pilot and would never fly a trip like that, 8+ hours in the seat with a red eye sounds insane and would never be allowed where I work thanks to years of fatigue reports. Most of the world a night shift red eye like that wouldn’t be legal, just because it’s CARS compliant doesn’t mean it’s safe.

Lol... You have never worked in the middle east have you.. Starting at 8pm and landing back at 8am is pretty common unfortuanetly.. And those would be to destinations in the winter with bad weather, dodgy ATC's and terrain all over..

[flyingcanuck]

...

Wait… are the red eyes turns like yyz-YEG-yyz? If that’s the case I’d like for guys to look in the mirror and ask themselves how alert they are landing back in yyz. Those are long nights and going to get much much worse as winter comes and the whole thing is in the dark.

if that blows your mind you shold see the CDs Jazz does.. 3-5 hour breaks in between flights at 2am

[Arnie Pye]

the only red eye I've flown was a ykf-yvr-ykf. We left as the sun set in the west and watched it rise on approach. That was over a year ago though so I don't know what flights are being done out east any more. We follow the CARs, or the CBA whichever is more stringent, if we're fatigued, we book off, and if we think either CARs or CBA are being violated we file SMS reports and follow up to make sure it doesn't happen again. But if you're a pilot, you know that and you're just trolling.

I’m a pilot and would never fly a trip like that, 8+ hours in the seat with a red eye sounds insane and would never be allowed where I work thanks to years of fatigue reports. Most of the world a night shift red eye like that wouldn’t be legal, just because it’s CARS compliant doesn’t mean it’s safe.

Lol... You have never worked in the middle east have you.. Starting at 8pm and landing back at 8am is pretty common unfortuanetly.. And those would be to destinations in the winter with bad weather, dodgy ATC's and terrain all over..

It's a little different with a bunk and augmented crew though.

If you're on night cargo, you're probably consistently on nights. It's switching from day to night that is the problem.

I think YKF and YYZ both do YVR red eye turns. YOW pilots are getting paid to sit on their duff at the moment. It's the club med of Flair. Of course, some of the pilots are being sent to other bases to cover flying from time to time. You should hear them complain about having to go to work

[Jack Klumpus]

It's a little different with a bunk and augmented crew though.

What bunks and what augmented crew? It’s done every single night, 2 crew night turnaround, with anywhere from 1-4hrs ground time in between.

[GreenerPastures]

It's a little different with a bunk and augmented crew though.

What bunks and what augmented crew? It’s done every single night, 2 crew night turnaround, with anywhere from 1-4hrs ground time in between.

Last time I checked, the 737’s I fly don’t have bunks..

[flying4dollars]

I’m a pilot and would never fly a trip like that, 8+ hours in the seat with a red eye sounds insane and would never be allowed where I work thanks to years of fatigue reports. Most of the world a night shift red eye like that wouldn’t be legal, just because it’s CARS compliant doesn’t mean it’s safe.

Lol... You have never worked in the middle east have you.. Starting at 8pm and landing back at 8am is pretty common unfortuanetly.. And those would be to destinations in the winter with bad weather, dodgy ATC's and terrain all over..

It's a little different with a bunk and augmented crew though.

If you're on night cargo, you're probably consistently on nights. It's switching from day to night that is the problem.

I think YKF and YYZ both do YVR red eye turns. YOW pilots are getting paid to sit on their duff at the moment. It's the club med of Flair. Of course, some of the pilots are being sent to other bases to cover flying from time to time. You should hear them complain about having to go to work

Flydubai does a lot of red eye turns in the 737. That's what he was referring to.

[Donald]

This post aged well.

[AstroPants]

This post aged well.

They completed the investigation already? Crikey, that's fast! Hats off to TC.

[Donald]

This post aged well.

They completed the investigation already? Crikey, that's fast! Hats off to TC.

Do you need 12 months to figure out that fatigue was a factor in the crew performance and decision making today?