Do they hire pilots with open work permits (PGWP)?

[tanxiaoneng]

Hi folks,

I'm an international student finishing my CPL and soon multi-IFR. I know many if not most flight schools have no problem hiring graduated candidates with a work permit, but what are the chances at local airlines?

A PGWP work permit doesn't require sponsorship or anything. It is work authorization for graduates to work any job. But somehow I have a feeling that it'll be a problem with airlines.

Anybody has any practical experiences?

Cheers,

[Aspiredtofly]

Hi folks,

I'm an international student finishing my CPL and soon multi-IFR. I know many if not most flight schools have no problem hiring graduated candidates with a work permit, but what are the chances at local airlines?

A PGWP work permit doesn't require sponsorship or anything. It is work authorization for graduates to work any job. But somehow I have a feeling that it'll be a problem with airlines.

Anybody has any practical experiences?

Cheers,

Major local airlines might be a problem but there are alot of small operators that posts pilot vacancy with one of its requirement mentioning *Must have the right to work and live in Canada*. That sometimes would not mean for international students or for someone who does not have a permanent resident bare minimum, so it's best if you ask the company directly through email or ask someone who works there.

[tanxiaoneng]

Hi folks,

I'm an international student finishing my CPL and soon multi-IFR. I know many if not most flight schools have no problem hiring graduated candidates with a work permit, but what are the chances at local airlines?

A PGWP work permit doesn't require sponsorship or anything. It is work authorization for graduates to work any job. But somehow I have a feeling that it'll be a problem with airlines.

Anybody has any practical experiences?

Cheers,

Major local airlines might be a problem but there are alot of small operators that posts pilot vacancy with one of its requirement mentioning *Must have the right to work and live in Canada*. That sometimes would not mean for international students or for someone who does not have a permanent resident bare minimum, so it's best if you ask the company directly through email or ask someone who works there.

Post by tanxiaoneng » Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:20 am

Thx for the opinion! I am sending emails, making calls, and planning to do road trips and meet some of these operators in person after I'm done with my flight test, as recommended by many on this forum.

The thing is that I think many Canadians have misconceptions about work permit, PR, and citizenship, and understandably so. I'm worried perhaps they don't mean what they say when they wrote "must have authorization to work in Canada", and what they actually mean is PR/citizenship...but certainly like you said, can only figure out by talking with them directly. That's why I'm curious if anyone already has the experience with that.

[Aspiredtofly]

Hi folks,

I'm an international student finishing my CPL and soon multi-IFR. I know many if not most flight schools have no problem hiring graduated candidates with a work permit, but what are the chances at local airlines?

A PGWP work permit doesn't require sponsorship or anything. It is work authorization for graduates to work any job. But somehow I have a feeling that it'll be a problem with airlines.

Anybody has any practical experiences?

Cheers,

Major local airlines might be a problem but there are alot of small operators that posts pilot vacancy with one of its requirement mentioning *Must have the right to work and live in Canada*. That sometimes would not mean for international students or for someone who does not have a permanent resident bare minimum, so it's best if you ask the company directly through email or ask someone who works there.

Post by tanxiaoneng » Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:20 am

Thx for the opinion! I am sending emails, making calls, and planning to do road trips and meet some of these operators in person after I'm done with my flight test, as recommended by many on this forum.

The thing is that I think many Canadians have misconceptions about work permit, PR, and citizenship, and understandably so. I'm worried perhaps they don't mean what they say when they wrote "must have authorization to work in Canada", and what they actually mean is PR/citizenship...but certainly like you said, can only figure out by talking with them directly. That's why I'm curious if anyone already has the experience with that.

I'm not sure of what your experience is in terms of the hours you have. If perhaps your just graduating flight school with 250hrs in total then you have very limited options; with that amount of hours you can work as a ramp agent or some officer with a small operator until your number shows up to fly the right seat. The ramp method is harsh and it takes time depending upon where you work, who you work for and with how fast the movement is in the industry. Your next option would be the flight instructor path, it will cost you another $10-15k, but it's almost as if you get a garunteed job if you graduate from the same flight school with the instructor rating and I guess it's most likely that flight schools would reply to emails and calls if you provide them with your resume or something so that's a great way to start.

I believe it's only a matter of time and patience when it comes to applying for the position you want to work for. As a starter I would suggest you save some money and get your instructor rating since there's no garuntee for any airline operators to even consider someone who does not have a permanent residence atleast

[photofly]

A PGWP isn’t unrestricted because it’s of limited duration. Employers may be unwilling to employ you in a permanent position because they don’t have a procedure in place that would enable them to terminate your employment at the end of your work permit.

[negative_g]

I know a few pilots who got jobs flying with their PGWP. You'll be fine. Work right are work rights, and they're easy to extend when you get near expiration.

[tanxiaoneng]

Major local airlines might be a problem but there are alot of small operators that posts pilot vacancy with one of its requirement mentioning *Must have the right to work and live in Canada*. That sometimes would not mean for international students or for someone who does not have a permanent resident bare minimum, so it's best if you ask the company directly through email or ask someone who works there.

Post by tanxiaoneng » Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:20 am

Thx for the opinion! I am sending emails, making calls, and planning to do road trips and meet some of these operators in person after I'm done with my flight test, as recommended by many on this forum.

The thing is that I think many Canadians have misconceptions about work permit, PR, and citizenship, and understandably so. I'm worried perhaps they don't mean what they say when they wrote "must have authorization to work in Canada", and what they actually mean is PR/citizenship...but certainly like you said, can only figure out by talking with them directly. That's why I'm curious if anyone already has the experience with that.

I'm not sure of what your experience is in terms of the hours you have. If perhaps your just graduating flight school with 250hrs in total then you have very limited options; with that amount of hours you can work as a ramp agent or some officer with a small operator until your number shows up to fly the right seat. The ramp method is harsh and it takes time depending upon where you work, who you work for and with how fast the movement is in the industry. Your next option would be the flight instructor path, it will cost you another $10-15k, but it's almost as if you get a garunteed job if you graduate from the same flight school with the instructor rating and I guess it's most likely that flight schools would reply to emails and calls if you provide them with your resume or something so that's a great way to start.

I believe it's only a matter of time and patience when it comes to applying for the position you want to work for. As a starter I would suggest you save some money and get your instructor rating since there's no garuntee for any airline operators to even consider someone who does not have a permanent residence atleast

Thanks!

[tanxiaoneng]

A PGWP isn’t unrestricted because it’s of limited duration. Employers may be unwilling to employ you in a permanent position because they don’t have a procedure in place that would enable them to terminate your employment at the end of your work permit.

Fair point. But most flight schools have no problem hiring their foreign graduates you know. How would that be much different for local airlines? People come and go in flight schools pretty frequently, but I would argue that's the same case for local airlines isn't it?

[tanxiaoneng]

I know a few pilots who got jobs flying with their PGWP. You'll be fine. Work right are work rights, and they're easy to extend when you get near expiration.

Really?! Would be great news! Do you have any idea or mind sharing what companies they worked for, or at least what region? I'm willing to go anywhere in the country.

PGWPs aren't extendable but surely can help one get PR to extend the work rights if that's what you mean.

[negative_g]

Yeah sorry you're right, there was PR involved for them after a few years. I think there was an extension though but they had already applied for PR? So they could extend it while waiting? It was a long time ago that kinda rings a bell but I might be off.

703 flying in Northern Ontario and Manitoba. King Air, 206, Navajo. They're all at major airlines now.

[tanxiaoneng]

Yeah sorry you're right, there was PR involved for them after a few years. I think there was an extension though but they had already applied for PR? So they could extend it while waiting? It was a long time ago that kinda rings a bell but I might be off.

703 flying in Northern Ontario and Manitoba. King Air, 206, Navajo. They're all at major airlines now.

Much appreciated! I'm thinking about sending emails to ask about ground-to-flight opportunities and what not. I was originally planning to go to Harv's Air in Manitoba for FIR training anyways.

After they get the invitation for PR (but not getting the physical PR card yet), they're on "implied status" and can continue to work no matter the status of their work permit.

[Aspiredtofly]

I know a few pilots who got jobs flying with their PGWP. You'll be fine. Work right are work rights, and they're easy to extend when you get near expiration.

No they are not unless you have an expiring passport. You only get the PGWP once in a lifetime and only for 3 years mostly if you only apply for a work permit without any education in Canada. Plus if you choose to do a course which less than 2 years then you would only get the work permit for the amount of months you've done the course. For example, I choose to do a CPL course for 18 months, if I apply for a work permit I would only get the work permit for 18 months then done, pack your bags and leave to your home country

[photofly]

A PGWP isn’t unrestricted because it’s of limited duration. Employers may be unwilling to employ you in a permanent position because they don’t have a procedure in place that would enable them to terminate your employment at the end of your work permit.

Fair point. But most flight schools have no problem hiring their foreign graduates you know. How would that be much different for local airlines? People come and go in flight schools pretty frequently, but I would argue that's the same case for local airlines isn't it?

Most flight schools hire and fire instructors on an ad-hoc basis as contractors, and don’t have an HR department or employment policies. Even a small airline will be more organized than that, and I’d bet the bigger flight schools (that do things “properly”) won’t look at you for instructor work until you’re a permanent resident of Canada. But you might get lucky with some small carrier outfit somewhere.

I don’t think it’s a function of the type of work, more the level of sophistication of the organization.

[digits_]

I know a few pilots who got jobs flying with their PGWP. You'll be fine. Work right are work rights, and they're easy to extend when you get near expiration.

No they are not unless you have an expiring passport. You only get the PGWP once in a lifetime and only for 3 years mostly if you only apply for a work permit without any education in Canada. Plus if you choose to do a course which less than 2 years then you would only get the work permit for the amount of months you've done the course. For example, I choose to do a CPL course for 18 months, if I apply for a work permit I would only get the work permit for 18 months then done, pack your bags and leave to your home country

Not necessarily. As mentioned above, if you end up qualifying for a PR in the mean time, then 'implied status' might save the day.

The general policy is that whatever permit you have is valid until the application for a new permit is either approved or rejected.

It might be hard to explain that to an employer though.

[yashu10]

I would suggest you get a flight instructor rating and go that route. I graduated just before covid and I was told it was possible to get a job as an international student anywhere. That hasn't worked out for me yet. I had no prior work experience and this would be my first job ever. The hiring practices in Canada are archaic where word of mouth or knowing someone pays off. More than half the companies want a Canadian Citizen forget PR. Regionals will hire you with PR. I went up north earlier this year to work on the ramp in a Pilot in waiting position but my PGWP was about to expire and there was nothing the company could do to help so I had to leave. With the PGWP extension announced this year, I'm looking for work again but the last three years have been grim with almost no responses from companies. If you get lucky on your road trip then good but I suggest instead of relying on luck you get a flight instructor rating and get a job as an instructor. There are companies posting on avcanada and PCC looking for instructors and usually flight schools hire people they train. Work for a year as a flight instructor and apply for PR. Build time till like 1000 or 1500 and then make your move to a regional or any company you want to move to. You cannot get a rating after your status changes to a worker as your prohibited from taking any courses and the flight instructor rating is considered a vocational course. Taking this route also lets you skip the scam that is pilot in waiting positions.

[photofly]

You cannot get a rating after your status changes to a worker as your prohibited from taking any courses and the flight instructor rating is considered a vocational course.

I'm not sure this is accurate advice (or at least, I'm not sure it's accurately expressed), given that you can get any licence or rating in Canada, including an instructor rating, as a visitor or tourist.

[yashu10]

You cannot get a rating after your status changes to a worker as your prohibited from taking any courses and the flight instructor rating is considered a vocational course.

I'm not sure this is accurate advice (or at least, I'm not sure it's accurately expressed), given that you can get any licence or rating in Canada, including an instructor rating, as a visitor or tourist.

Instructor rating training is considered a vocational course under the Private Career Colleges Act, 2005. One condition for PGWPs is " Unless Authorized Prohibited from attending any Educational Institution, or taking any academic, professional or vocational training course". There is no way to get Authorization for this, as in there is no process or form that helps you get this authorization.

[photofly]

You cannot get a rating after your status changes to a worker as your prohibited from taking any courses and the flight instructor rating is considered a vocational course.

I'm not sure this is accurate advice (or at least, I'm not sure it's accurately expressed), given that you can get any licence or rating in Canada, including an instructor rating, as a visitor or tourist.

Instructor rating training is considered a vocational course under the Private Career Colleges Act, 2005. One condition for PGWPs is " Unless Authorized Prohibited from attending any Educational Institution, or taking any academic, professional or vocational training course". There is no way to get Authorization for this, as in there is no process or form that helps you get this authorization.

The Private Career Colleges Act is a piece of provincial legislation in Ontario, and doesn't feature on the radar of federal government embodied by Immigration Canada who set the rules for work permits. As far as I know there's no federal recognition of an instructor rating as any kind of vocational course except when studied for at a Designated Learning Institution, so you could get one in another province that is less restrictive than Ontario, or even in Ontario with a freelance class 1 instructor, of whom there are many.

I don't even know that even Ontario's PCCA requires a college to check their student's immigration status before offering any training. I'm fairly sure it doesn't.

Transport Canada is very clear that it doesn't consider itself remotely bound by any provincial rules, and there are no TC requirements on nationality or immigration status before it provides them an instructor rating, or in fact any other kind of licence or rating.

[yashu10]

I'm not sure this is accurate advice (or at least, I'm not sure it's accurately expressed), given that you can get any licence or rating in Canada, including an instructor rating, as a visitor or tourist.

Instructor rating training is considered a vocational course under the Private Career Colleges Act, 2005. One condition for PGWPs is " Unless Authorized Prohibited from attending any Educational Institution, or taking any academic, professional or vocational training course". There is no way to get Authorization for this, as in there is no process or form that helps you get this authorization.

The Private Career Colleges Act is a piece of provincial legislation in Ontario, and doesn't feature on the radar of federal government embodied by Immigration Canada who set the rules for work permits. As far as I know there's no federal recognition of an instructor rating as any kind of vocational course, so you could get one in another province, or even in Ontario with a freelance class 1 instructor, of whom there are many.

I don't even know that even Ontario's PCCA requires a college to check their student's immigration status before offering any training.

Wouldn't training for an instructor rating be considered professional training? I haven't tried getting an instructor rating due to fear of repercussions as an immigrant on a PGWP.

[photofly]

Wouldn't training for an instructor rating be considered professional training?

It depends on who's doing the considering.

Immigration Canada allows anyone to receive flight training of any kind even on a tourist visa, and Transport Canada doesn't have any rules about immigration status.

Some provinces (Ontario, BC) restrict who can provide "vocational" training, and in Ontario a provincial body decided that instructor ratings are such, but federal government and provincial governments set their own, often different, rules. Immigration status is a federal matter. I absolutely wouldn't allow any provincial legislation to affect my decision on immigration matters.

The Canada Revenue Agency (a federal agency) will not allow a student to claim tax exemptions for flight training as a vocational matter unless the student conducts the training at a Designated Learning Institution. It would seem inconsistent then to claim that training outside a DLI was also vocational.

I also don't know that there's a mechanism for Immigration Canada to find out what sort of flight training you're doing, albeit that you cannot then claim an extension of your PGWP for it.

Other useful information:

You don't need a study permit for any course shorter than six months:
https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentr ... 484&top=15

I also understand from various online resources that you can apply for a study permit while you already hold a PGWP, and hold both at the same time. But I can't find an official confirmation. A study permit would qualify as your authorization to study, and the process to get such authorization would simply be to apply for a new study permit.