ACPA LOA?

[furloughedAC]

@Lenamaude

So just to make things perfectly clear, you think the company will come up with some other way to achieve the required training for their planned expansion, without negotiating?

I was so worried that 50% + 1 were going to think like you on this vote. So glad to see an overwhelming majority of AC pilots are aware of where we stand within the industry and how to dig ourselves out of this hole.

As a flat payer who should be in year 3 but is still on year 1, I sympathize with you living in your parents basement. Let's tough it out for a couple more years and make significant gains that will pull up the entire Canadian aviation industry (which is long overdue).

Negotiation is all about leverage. There is power in your parents basement lol. You're not on the hook for a mortgage and truck payment, willing to take a subpar deal out of desperation.

[lenaumade]

@Lenamaude

So just to make things perfectly clear, you think the company will come up with some other way to achieve the required training for their planned expansion, without negotiating?

I was so worried that 50% + 1 were going to think like you on this vote. So glad to see an overwhelming majority of AC pilots are aware of where we stand within the industry and how to dig ourselves out of this hole.

As a flat payer who should be in year 3 but is still on year 1, I sympathize with you living in your parents basement. Let's tough it out for a couple more years and make significant gains that will pull up the entire Canadian aviation industry (which is long overdue).

Negotiation is all about leverage. There is power in your parents basement lol. You're not on the hook for a mortgage and truck payment, willing to take a subpar deal out of desperation.

@lenamade

we re all with you on this brothers , Mum basement suck for you we know, but another couple of years before arbitration and you could get out of it

Amen!

[schnitzel2k3]

Mon chum, counters don't come a day, a week, or a month later at this level. AC expected a bunch of spineless pilots, like you, to say yes to their MOA. Since they didn't get that, they are swallowing deep and figuring out their next move. Their next move is likely going to cost them major pesos and they are going to have to figure out how to divide y'all again. If they can't figure out how to divide, then they are going to have to deal with some stiff negots in 2023.

Why do you think AC originally pushed for a 10 year, no strike deal in 2013, during the end of the past recession? Recessions tend to be 10 year cycles so they knew at the time you would be in a weak position AGAIN. But what they didn't factor for was unity. Y'all (except you) finally sent a strong message that enough is enough.

As I said, you would be wise to sit quietly and stare out the right window of your Airbus while those with the balls to push forward step up and make progress.

And let me remind you once more, you were the one who said "Yes its ok to pay me your agreed 4 years of flat pay" when you signed on. If it's a problem, ask for an LOA and go work at Starbucks.

[lenaumade]

Are you dumb? Even if the group voted yes, flat pay was still going to be in existence and the salaries were still the biggest joke of the industry. Voting that offer down means bigger gains at the negotiating table. There should not even BE a flat pay to begin with. What's wrong with you? And nobody said the company would necessarily come back right away with a counter. You are not even looking at the big picture. You're like a child blinded by a shiny new toy. You're also pouting like one.

Stay strong AC brothers and sisters. The rest of us in the industry needs you to raise the bar. We all win.

Did you just woke up man? it is litterally what was said on this forum and on the after meetings that was held in yyz. The end of all the discussions was "they can do better than that" meaning waiting for a counter. i literally ask to some members here if we should wait for a counter. And the answer was yes. Now that there is no counter offer, the narrative changed and it is about renegot 2023. Suddenly we don t hear that anymore.

There should not be any flatpay. Agree. A lot of US carrier got a one year flat pay then go to fomula pay.

Are you dumb ? how come 4 years flatpay is the same than 2 years flatpay with an increased in wages on the 2 years. Have you not seen the increase in wages on MOA? How come our situations evolved here?

You wanted a unicorn deal without any concessions, news for you, you re at AC, there will always be concessions, don t be a kid please.

And can you explain to me how voting this MOA down will means bigger gains at the negotiating tables?

Mon chum, counters don't come a day, a week, or a month later at this level. AC expected a bunch of spineless pilots, like you, to say yes to their MOA. Since they didn't get that, they are swallowing deep and figuring out their next move. Their next move is likely going to cost them major pesos and they are going to have to figure out how to divide y'all again. If they can't figure out how to divide, then they are going to have to deal with some stiff negots in 2023.

Why do you think AC originally pushed for a 10 year, no strike deal in 2013, during the end of the past recession? Recessions tend to be 10 year cycles so they knew at the time you would be in a weak position AGAIN. But what they didn't factor for was unity. Y'all (except you) finally sent a strong message that enough is enough.

As I said, you would be wise to sit quietly and stare out the right window of your Airbus while those with the balls to push forward step up and make progress.

And let me remind you once more, you were the one who said "Yes its ok to pay me your agreed 4 years of flat pay" when you signed on. If it's a problem, ask for an LOA and go work at Starbucks.

As said before mon chum, I hope you are right, and I hope I am wrong. And I will promise something crazy that nobody has done before on this forum. I will admit I was wrong. How about that? but you ll do the same if a counter offer never come.
You re right, I may be too fast on the fact that the company will not come back. But I don t think they will.

the Union came back and forth 6 times to the company. I guess the company make their calcul and have a plan B to either take the loss, cancelling flights next year etc than giving us more. I don t see that as a big leverage.
they will not be able to provide training for all pilots but a good 2/3rd of it.

And it take real balls to vote no in front of your computer. A real hero man whatever make you feel fine, we re all winners dont we?

Why do I think AC originally pushed for a 10 years deal ?
mm let me think....because back in the day, the Union and the company went to an agreement with a new contract. The pilot voted the agreement down. It went to arbitration then the arbitrator took the company deal, not the one from the union which was a better deal.

And here we are...Don t you see that our situation look like a bit like ten years ago?

You are admitting we will be in recession next year and at the same time asking for more to the company. Dont you think it is a bit dumb to try to negotiate during a recession?
the company will just tell you that they are losing money and cannot grant your demand. Demand that could have been granted right now.

With our pilot group right now, with the lack of faith that we have in our unions. What can happen is that the Union will negotiate some gains and make concessions. Pilot will vote the contract down. We ll go in abritration etc etc etc..

And Let me remind you once more, you were the one who said "Yes it is ok to work under this bad pilot contract" when you signed on. if it's a problem, ask for an LOA and go work to make some schnitzel

At the end of the day, We want the same things, Better wages and scheduled. We differ on how to get it and only times will tell if you are right and I am wrong.

As a pilot group, we need to respect each other even if we disagree. And even on this forum.
I do not particularly enjoy pissing you off but if you talk to me a certain way, I will answer to you a certain way also. If you want respectful conversations, It is also possible,

This MOA was voted down, it is what it is, I don t think it was a good move for our pilot groups. You think it is, time will tell. If in 6 months we still have the flat pay that means you were wrong and we will into renegotiation. And hope for the best.

[rudder]

As said before mon chum, I hope you are right, and I hope I am wrong. And I will promise something crazy that nobody has done before on this forum. I will admit I was wrong. How about that? but you ll do the same if a counter offer never come.
You re right, I may be too fast on the fact that the company will not come back. But I don t think they will.

the Union came back and forth 6 times to the company. I guess the company make their calcul and have a plan B to either take the loss, cancelling flights next year etc than giving us more. I don t see that as a big leverage.
they will not be able to provide training for all pilots but a good 2/3rd of it.

And it take real balls to vote no in front of your computer. A real hero man whatever make you feel fine, we re all winners dont we?

Why do I think AC originally pushed for a 10 years deal ?
mm let me think....because back in the day, the Union and the company went to an agreement with a new contract. The pilot voted the agreement down. It went to arbitration then the arbitrator took the company deal, not the one from the union which was a better deal.

And here we are...Don t you see that our situation look like a bit like ten years ago?

You are admitting we will be in recession next year and at the same time asking for more to the company. Dont you think it is a bit dumb to try to negotiate during a recession?
the company will just tell you that they are losing money and cannot grant your demand. Demand that could have been granted right now.

With our pilot group right now, with the lack of faith that we have in our unions. What can happen is that the Union will negotiate some gains and make concessions. Pilot will vote the contract down. We ll go in abritration etc etc etc..

And Let me remind you once more, you were the one who said "Yes it is ok to work under this bad pilot contract" when you signed on. if it's a problem, ask for an LOA and go work to make some schnitzel

At the end of the day, We want the same things, Better wages and scheduled. We differ on how to get it and only times will tell if you are right and I am wrong.

As a pilot group, we need to respect each other even if we disagree. And even on this forum.
I do not particularly enjoy pissing you off but if you talk to me a certain way, I will answer to you a certain way also. If you want respectful conversations, It is also possible,

This MOA was voted down, it is what it is, I don t think it was a good move for our pilot groups. You think it is, time will tell. If in 6 months we still have the flat pay that means you were wrong and we will into renegotiation. And hope for the best.

The difference between then and 2023 is:

1. No CR
2. No Federal Conservative majority
3. Shortage of qualified pilots
4. AC pilots will likely be ALPA represented

This does not guarantee overwhelming success at the bargaining table, but there is no reason to expect a repeat performance of the past.

p.s. ACPA (AC pilots) control whether the CBA opens next year. The AC pilots are in the drivers seat for the first time in a long while.

[dhc2pilot]

No way!! way to go lenamade!! It takes courage to come forward like that!!

Your mum is right, you should have review your history and mostly how we ended with this shitty deal for our pilot group.

Say hi to your mum

P.S : I feel kind of proud that you took the time to create a fake account impersonating me

You should have spent more time in english class. Never mind history.

[schnitzel2k3]

My only concern is you stoking fear instead of exuding strength because financially you are struggling with the choices you made.

There is talks that a pending recession could be in our near future due to our central banking systems failure to control the situation, but despite their best efforts, the economy continues to grow. This is not 2008 America where there were millions of mortgages that went into default. Our housing market is sensitive due to interest rates, but our markets are marginally better regulated. No such thing as a NINJA loan in Canada. This is a different beast altogether and thus far, the amount consumers are spending hasn't changed according to the major credit analysts. Stock markets may be down, but a lot of that is thanks to the U.S Feds sucking that bloody free money out of the market (that and fear), stock pricing, after boiling down the math, is heavily defined by perception and emotion. Last point to consider, there are significantly more job openings than there are employees at present. In every sector, not just aviation.

Pending recessions aren't a reason to hold back on engaging in deep negotiations, you just need a strong bargaining team. What you have to remember is despite a recession (which are typically short lived), AC is sensitive to the shortage of qualified flight crew and available training slots to give them the room to grow. AC wants to grow, and they would love for you to take the first or second offer, before you have a chance to truly threaten them.

I'm sorry to say, you likely will be off flat pay before you see it eliminated. I figure you're probably YR2, maybe YR3.

I'm not pissed off, far from it. I just want to see AC pilots stay together and stop the fear mongering. You guys made the absolute right choice saying no. They'll make you sweat it out, they are toxic negotiators; that's the kind of management you are dealing with. The trick is to not give in. Say no, until its truly worth saying yes. It may come down to saying, "We're not ready, ride out the "recession" and come out swinging on the other side. The Air Canada pilots, the "NHL'ers" of Canadian pilots, are FINALLY after a decade, in the left seat. Do something that'll make the industry celebrate your success.

[lenaumade]

No way!! way to go lenamade!! It takes courage to come forward like that!!

Your mum is right, you should have review your history and mostly how we ended with this shitty deal for our pilot group.

Say hi to your mum

P.S : I feel kind of proud that you took the time to create a fake account impersonating me

You should have spent more time in english class. Never mind history.

Do you want to go on in French? or do you need some class?

[schnitzel2k3]

Nous pouvons si tu veux, malhereusement pour toi, l'anglais c'est la propre langue d'aviation.

[lenaumade]

Nous pouvons si tu veux, malhereusement pour toi, l'anglais c'est la propre langue d'aviation.

Ok, est ce que ca me permet de te dire d'aller prendre des cours de Français maintenant?

[lenaumade]

My only concern is you stoking fear instead of exuding strength because financially you are struggling with the choices you made.

There is talks that a pending recession could be in our near future due to our central banking systems failure to control the situation, but despite their best efforts, the economy continues to grow. This is not 2008 America where there were millions of mortgages that went into default. Our housing market is sensitive due to interest rates, but our markets are marginally better regulated. No such thing as a NINJA loan in Canada. This is a different beast altogether and thus far, the amount consumers are spending hasn't changed according to the major credit analysts. Stock markets may be down, but a lot of that is thanks to the U.S Feds sucking that bloody free money out of the market (that and fear), stock pricing, after boiling down the math, is heavily defined by perception and emotion. Last point to consider, there are significantly more job openings than there are employees at present. In every sector, not just aviation.

Pending recessions aren't a reason to hold back on engaging in deep negotiations, you just need a strong bargaining team. What you have to remember is despite a recession (which are typically short lived), AC is sensitive to the shortage of qualified flight crew and available training slots to give them the room to grow. AC wants to grow, and they would love for you to take the first or second offer, before you have a chance to truly threaten them.

I'm sorry to say, you likely will be off flat pay before you see it eliminated. I figure you're probably YR2, maybe YR3.

I'm not pissed off, far from it. I just want to see AC pilots stay together and stop the fear mongering. You guys made the absolute right choice saying no. They'll make you sweat it out, they are toxic negotiators; that's the kind of management you are dealing with. The trick is to not give in. Say no, until its truly worth saying yes. It may come down to saying, "We're not ready, ride out the "recession" and come out swinging on the other side. The Air Canada pilots, the "NHL'ers" of Canadian pilots, are FINALLY after a decade, in the left seat. Do something that'll make the industry celebrate your success.

Just to be clear It is not about fear, it is about strategy. We don t care about me and where i am in the seniority list. It is nice that you worry about my financial situation but if you want to know it, I m good. No money problem. So it is not about that
I was at Jazz before and saw how the senior pilot f.... us over.
My vision was to make constant gains for junior pilots. to the expense of some concessions because they are the ones suffering the most and I did not wanted looking like those senior jazz guy who f... the junior over because they did not wanted to do some small concessions.
If I need to do 24 more hours Potentially (potentially) per year, I would have done it. and renegotiate after it if needed, later.
I personally believe that training may not be as a big leverage as we all think.
if you re talking to me about a strike. That is a real leverage.

I m not sure ALPA will be so different and I did not like my experience at Jazz with ALPA obviously but there is apparently 0 confidence for ACPA and if it means restoring trust within our unions and go forward from here, why not

[twa22]

My only concern is you stoking fear instead of exuding strength because financially you are struggling with the choices you made.

There is talks that a pending recession could be in our near future due to our central banking systems failure to control the situation, but despite their best efforts, the economy continues to grow. This is not 2008 America where there were millions of mortgages that went into default. Our housing market is sensitive due to interest rates, but our markets are marginally better regulated. No such thing as a NINJA loan in Canada. This is a different beast altogether and thus far, the amount consumers are spending hasn't changed according to the major credit analysts. Stock markets may be down, but a lot of that is thanks to the U.S Feds sucking that bloody free money out of the market (that and fear), stock pricing, after boiling down the math, is heavily defined by perception and emotion. Last point to consider, there are significantly more job openings than there are employees at present. In every sector, not just aviation.

Pending recessions aren't a reason to hold back on engaging in deep negotiations, you just need a strong bargaining team. What you have to remember is despite a recession (which are typically short lived), AC is sensitive to the shortage of qualified flight crew and available training slots to give them the room to grow. AC wants to grow, and they would love for you to take the first or second offer, before you have a chance to truly threaten them.

I'm sorry to say, you likely will be off flat pay before you see it eliminated. I figure you're probably YR2, maybe YR3.

I'm not pissed off, far from it. I just want to see AC pilots stay together and stop the fear mongering. You guys made the absolute right choice saying no. They'll make you sweat it out, they are toxic negotiators; that's the kind of management you are dealing with. The trick is to not give in. Say no, until its truly worth saying yes. It may come down to saying, "We're not ready, ride out the "recession" and come out swinging on the other side. The Air Canada pilots, the "NHL'ers" of Canadian pilots, are FINALLY after a decade, in the left seat. Do something that'll make the industry celebrate your success.

Just to be clear It is not about fear, it is about strategy. We don t care about me and where i am in the seniority list. It is nice that you worry about my financial situation but if you want to know it, I m good. No money problem. So it is not about that
I was at Jazz before and saw how the senior pilot f.... us over.
My vision was to make constant gains for junior pilots. to the expense of some concessions because they are the ones suffering the most and I did not wanted looking like those senior jazz guy who f... the junior over because they did not wanted to do some small concessions.
If I need to do 24 more hours Potentially (potentially) per year, I would have done it. and renegotiate after it if needed, later.
I personally believe that training may not be as a big leverage as we all think.
if you re talking to me about a strike. That is a real leverage.

I m not sure ALPA will be so different and I did not like my experience at Jazz with ALPA obviously but there is apparently 0 confidence for ACPA and if it means restoring trust within our unions and go forward from here, why not

Trying to have the loudest voice in the room clearly isn't getting you anywhere, why don't you just wait, especially if you're good financially... Clearly no one agrees with you, even the non AC pilots don't agree with you (myself included). I didn't have much hope for our industry, but after this huge no vote, I have never been more optimistic that not only AC pilots will get significant gains, but this will all trickle down to the smallest 703 eventually.

It won't happen overnight like everyone is saying, so just relax a little and wait, it'll come, you need to have more faith in your fellow pilots.

[lenaumade]

My only concern is you stoking fear instead of exuding strength because financially you are struggling with the choices you made.

There is talks that a pending recession could be in our near future due to our central banking systems failure to control the situation, but despite their best efforts, the economy continues to grow. This is not 2008 America where there were millions of mortgages that went into default. Our housing market is sensitive due to interest rates, but our markets are marginally better regulated. No such thing as a NINJA loan in Canada. This is a different beast altogether and thus far, the amount consumers are spending hasn't changed according to the major credit analysts. Stock markets may be down, but a lot of that is thanks to the U.S Feds sucking that bloody free money out of the market (that and fear), stock pricing, after boiling down the math, is heavily defined by perception and emotion. Last point to consider, there are significantly more job openings than there are employees at present. In every sector, not just aviation.

Pending recessions aren't a reason to hold back on engaging in deep negotiations, you just need a strong bargaining team. What you have to remember is despite a recession (which are typically short lived), AC is sensitive to the shortage of qualified flight crew and available training slots to give them the room to grow. AC wants to grow, and they would love for you to take the first or second offer, before you have a chance to truly threaten them.

I'm sorry to say, you likely will be off flat pay before you see it eliminated. I figure you're probably YR2, maybe YR3.

I'm not pissed off, far from it. I just want to see AC pilots stay together and stop the fear mongering. You guys made the absolute right choice saying no. They'll make you sweat it out, they are toxic negotiators; that's the kind of management you are dealing with. The trick is to not give in. Say no, until its truly worth saying yes. It may come down to saying, "We're not ready, ride out the "recession" and come out swinging on the other side. The Air Canada pilots, the "NHL'ers" of Canadian pilots, are FINALLY after a decade, in the left seat. Do something that'll make the industry celebrate your success.

Just to be clear It is not about fear, it is about strategy. We don t care about me and where i am in the seniority list. It is nice that you worry about my financial situation but if you want to know it, I m good. No money problem. So it is not about that
I was at Jazz before and saw how the senior pilot f.... us over.
My vision was to make constant gains for junior pilots. to the expense of some concessions because they are the ones suffering the most and I did not wanted looking like those senior jazz guy who f... the junior over because they did not wanted to do some small concessions.
If I need to do 24 more hours Potentially (potentially) per year, I would have done it. and renegotiate after it if needed, later.
I personally believe that training may not be as a big leverage as we all think.
if you re talking to me about a strike. That is a real leverage.

I m not sure ALPA will be so different and I did not like my experience at Jazz with ALPA obviously but there is apparently 0 confidence for ACPA and if it means restoring trust within our unions and go forward from here, why not

Trying to have the loudest voice in the room clearly isn't getting you anywhere, why don't you just wait, especially if you're good financially... Clearly no one agrees with you, even the non AC pilots don't agree with you (myself included). I didn't have much hope for our industry, but after this huge no vote, I have never been more optimistic that not only AC pilots will get significant gains, but this will all trickle down to the smallest 703 eventually.

It won't happen overnight like everyone is saying, so just relax a little and wait, it'll come, you need to have more faith in your fellow pilots.

Not trying to convince you or anyone. This vote is off. it is what it is.
It is not about agree with you or anyone. This thread is read by a lots of people. I am the only one to have another view on the subject. You can agree or not. you are entitled to have your own opinion and I have the same right to do that.

There was a lots of misinformations on this forum, on social media etc...and lots of peer pressure. Some guys just told me they voted NO because their buddy told them to vote no and did not read the MOA.

Others voted no on whatever the union is presenting to the pilots.
Other voted No cause they saw on social Media that everybody told them to vote no.
Some voted No because they are waiting on a counter offer, others read the MOA and decided to vote no


Why don t I wait if I am good financially? 1) well...obviously, it is not like right now, I have a choice anyway.
2) What is this argument? I am not alone in this company. I think of my fellow junior pilot and future pilot coming from jazz also.
Of course, the 12 years FO who earns a lot of money can wait another 2 years.

3) As a junior pilot, if you think that getting 4 years flat pay instead of 2 is a good things. it is your own opinion and I differed from this one.
4)significant gain... I hope so...you don t know that, I don t know either. sure that it will not be like the US, Unfortunately I can guarantee you that will not happen.

5)you re right on one point now, we ll see what happen

Enjoy your time in the north !

[negroni]

Just to be clear It is not about fear, it is about strategy. We don t care about me and where i am in the seniority list. It is nice that you worry about my financial situation but if you want to know it, I m good. No money problem. So it is not about that
I was at Jazz before and saw how the senior pilot f.... us over.
My vision was to make constant gains for junior pilots. to the expense of some concessions because they are the ones suffering the most and I did not wanted looking like those senior jazz guy who f... the junior over because they did not wanted to do some small concessions.
If I need to do 24 more hours Potentially (potentially) per year, I would have done it. and renegotiate after it if needed, later.
I personally believe that training may not be as a big leverage as we all think.
if you re talking to me about a strike. That is a real leverage.

I m not sure ALPA will be so different and I did not like my experience at Jazz with ALPA obviously but there is apparently 0 confidence for ACPA and if it means restoring trust within our unions and go forward from here, why not

Trying to have the loudest voice in the room clearly isn't getting you anywhere, why don't you just wait, especially if you're good financially... Clearly no one agrees with you, even the non AC pilots don't agree with you (myself included). I didn't have much hope for our industry, but after this huge no vote, I have never been more optimistic that not only AC pilots will get significant gains, but this will all trickle down to the smallest 703 eventually.

It won't happen overnight like everyone is saying, so just relax a little and wait, it'll come, you need to have more faith in your fellow pilots.

Not trying to convince you or anyone. This vote is off. it is what it is.
It is not about agree with you or anyone. This thread is read by a lots of people. I am the only one to have another view on the subject. You can agree or not. you are entitled to have your own opinion and I have the same right to do that.

There was a lots of misinformations on this forum, on social media etc...and lots of peer pressure. Some guys just told me they voted NO because their buddy told them to vote no and did not read the MOA.

Others voted no on whatever the union is presenting to the pilots.
Other voted No cause they saw on social Media that everybody told them to vote no.
Some voted No because they are waiting on a counter offer, others read the MOA and decided to vote no


Why don t I wait if I am good financially? 1) well...obviously, it is not like right now, I have a choice anyway.
2) What is this argument? I am not alone in this company. I think of my fellow junior pilot and future pilot coming from jazz also.
Of course, the 12 years FO who earns a lot of money can wait another 2 years.

3) As a junior pilot, if you think that getting 4 years flat pay instead of 2 is a good things. it is your own opinion and I differed from this one.
4)significant gain... I hope so...you don t know that, I don t know either. sure that it will not be like the US, Unfortunately I can guarantee you that will not happen.

5)you re right on one point now, we ll see what happen

Enjoy your time in the north !

Mate you are so far off the mark, and in your own echo chamber you don't even realize it. I had a good laugh at the above red bolded remarks.

[twa22]

Just to be clear It is not about fear, it is about strategy. We don t care about me and where i am in the seniority list. It is nice that you worry about my financial situation but if you want to know it, I m good. No money problem. So it is not about that
I was at Jazz before and saw how the senior pilot f.... us over.
My vision was to make constant gains for junior pilots. to the expense of some concessions because they are the ones suffering the most and I did not wanted looking like those senior jazz guy who f... the junior over because they did not wanted to do some small concessions.
If I need to do 24 more hours Potentially (potentially) per year, I would have done it. and renegotiate after it if needed, later.
I personally believe that training may not be as a big leverage as we all think.
if you re talking to me about a strike. That is a real leverage.

I m not sure ALPA will be so different and I did not like my experience at Jazz with ALPA obviously but there is apparently 0 confidence for ACPA and if it means restoring trust within our unions and go forward from here, why not

Trying to have the loudest voice in the room clearly isn't getting you anywhere, why don't you just wait, especially if you're good financially... Clearly no one agrees with you, even the non AC pilots don't agree with you (myself included). I didn't have much hope for our industry, but after this huge no vote, I have never been more optimistic that not only AC pilots will get significant gains, but this will all trickle down to the smallest 703 eventually.

It won't happen overnight like everyone is saying, so just relax a little and wait, it'll come, you need to have more faith in your fellow pilots.

Not trying to convince you or anyone. This vote is off. it is what it is.
It is not about agree with you or anyone. This thread is read by a lots of people. I am the only one to have another view on the subject. You can agree or not. you are entitled to have your own opinion and I have the same right to do that.

There was a lots of misinformations on this forum, on social media etc...and lots of peer pressure. Some guys just told me they voted NO because their buddy told them to vote no and did not read the MOA.

Others voted no on whatever the union is presenting to the pilots.
Other voted No cause they saw on social Media that everybody told them to vote no.
Some voted No because they are waiting on a counter offer, others read the MOA and decided to vote no


Why don t I wait if I am good financially? 1) well...obviously, it is not like right now, I have a choice anyway.
2) What is this argument? I am not alone in this company. I think of my fellow junior pilot and future pilot coming from jazz also.
Of course, the 12 years FO who earns a lot of money can wait another 2 years.

3) As a junior pilot, if you think that getting 4 years flat pay instead of 2 is a good things. it is your own opinion and I differed from this one.
4)significant gain... I hope so...you don t know that, I don t know either. sure that it will not be like the US, Unfortunately I can guarantee you that will not happen.

5)you re right on one point now, we ll see what happen

Enjoy your time in the north !

Not sure what you mean by enjoy my time in the north, but if you mean it literally, I am nowhere near the north and never have been, so if that's what you were implying, thanks for assuming bud

Of course I think flat pay is garbage, but from what I gathered here, and directly from my friends at AC, this MOA was more garbage then it was good, and i'm pretty sure that the 80% who voted, majority didn't vote for the reasons you said, because they were told to vote no, or their friend voted no, or they were peer pressured... if anything, the yes votes generally occur that way, and I would wager yes votes usually come with some sort of pressure to vote yes or face repercussions if you vote no (does the cargojet vote from not long ago ring any bells?)

Anyways, you do you bud, but i'm pretty sure the majority at AC knew what they were doing when they voted no, they didn't just vote no because buddy told them to

[TheAlcalde]

Did you just woke up man? it is litterally what was said on this forum and on the after meetings that was held in yyz. The end of all the discussions was "they can do better than that" meaning waiting for a counter. i literally ask to some members here if we should wait for a counter. And the answer was yes. Now that there is no counter offer, the narrative changed and it is about renegot 2023. Suddenly we don t hear that anymore.

There should not be any flatpay. Agree. A lot of US carrier got a one year flat pay then go to fomula pay.

Are you dumb ? how come 4 years flatpay is the same than 2 years flatpay with an increased in wages on the 2 years. Have you not seen the increase in wages on MOA? How come our situations evolved here?

You wanted a unicorn deal without any concessions, news for you, you re at AC, there will always be concessions, don t be a kid please.

And can you explain to me how voting this MOA down will means bigger gains at the negotiating tables?

Mon chum, counters don't come a day, a week, or a month later at this level. AC expected a bunch of spineless pilots, like you, to say yes to their MOA. Since they didn't get that, they are swallowing deep and figuring out their next move. Their next move is likely going to cost them major pesos and they are going to have to figure out how to divide y'all again. If they can't figure out how to divide, then they are going to have to deal with some stiff negots in 2023.

Why do you think AC originally pushed for a 10 year, no strike deal in 2013, during the end of the past recession? Recessions tend to be 10 year cycles so they knew at the time you would be in a weak position AGAIN. But what they didn't factor for was unity. Y'all (except you) finally sent a strong message that enough is enough.

As I said, you would be wise to sit quietly and stare out the right window of your Airbus while those with the balls to push forward step up and make progress.

And let me remind you once more, you were the one who said "Yes its ok to pay me your agreed 4 years of flat pay" when you signed on. If it's a problem, ask for an LOA and go work at Starbucks.

As said before mon chum, I hope you are right, and I hope I am wrong. And I will promise something crazy that nobody has done before on this forum. I will admit I was wrong. How about that? but you ll do the same if a counter offer never come.
You re right, I may be too fast on the fact that the company will not come back. But I don t think they will.

the Union came back and forth 6 times to the company. I guess the company make their calcul and have a plan B to either take the loss, cancelling flights next year etc than giving us more. I don t see that as a big leverage.
they will not be able to provide training for all pilots but a good 2/3rd of it.

And it take real balls to vote no in front of your computer. A real hero man whatever make you feel fine, we re all winners dont we?

Why do I think AC originally pushed for a 10 years deal ?
mm let me think....because back in the day, the Union and the company went to an agreement with a new contract. The pilot voted the agreement down. It went to arbitration then the arbitrator took the company deal, not the one from the union which was a better deal.

And here we are...Don t you see that our situation look like a bit like ten years ago?

You are admitting we will be in recession next year and at the same time asking for more to the company. Dont you think it is a bit dumb to try to negotiate during a recession?
the company will just tell you that they are losing money and cannot grant your demand. Demand that could have been granted right now.

With our pilot group right now, with the lack of faith that we have in our unions. What can happen is that the Union will negotiate some gains and make concessions. Pilot will vote the contract down. We ll go in abritration etc etc etc..

And Let me remind you once more, you were the one who said "Yes it is ok to work under this bad pilot contract" when you signed on. if it's a problem, ask for an LOA and go work to make some schnitzel

At the end of the day, We want the same things, Better wages and scheduled. We differ on how to get it and only times will tell if you are right and I am wrong.

As a pilot group, we need to respect each other even if we disagree. And even on this forum.
I do not particularly enjoy pissing you off but if you talk to me a certain way, I will answer to you a certain way also. If you want respectful conversations, It is also possible,

This MOA was voted down, it is what it is, I don t think it was a good move for our pilot groups. You think it is, time will tell. If in 6 months we still have the flat pay that means you were wrong and we will into renegotiation. And hope for the best.

Cest la vie, mom ami meilleur chance a la prochaine

[FL030]

This thread is screaming ACPA/Company astroturfing now. Whenever we don't like some deal it's always because of "misinformation", not because it's just a bad deal.

[hithere]

Interesting that no one on this thread has mentioned the fact that Gary Russell stepped down today. Even if the company did have a second proposal, can it be even heard by ACPA without a Chairman? Do they even have a quorum or MEC reps right now>?

[flying4dollars]

Interesting that no one on this thread has mentioned the fact that Gary Russell stepped down today. Even if the company did have a second proposal, can it be even heard by ACPA without a Chairman? Do they even have a quorum or MEC reps right now>?

There is an interim chair. The vice stepped into that role until a vote for the next chair has been initiated and completed.

[ZBBYLW]

Lenaumade, everyone is telling you to relax. I just don't understand why you are so bent on arguing for less than we are worth. You're actively working against our best interests. Let that sink in.

As for Gary stepping down, I believe those that are left in the MEC advised him they didn't want him to continue in his leadership roll. "Resigned" "fired" whatever he's gone. His rise to power and subsequent fall from grace has been the fastest I have ever seen at ACPA. Seems like only Liz Truss has him beat.

ACPA needs to get with the times. The membership is not happy with falling behind, countless contract issues not followed with no enforcement and having no expectations. The P4C group now have full control of the bridge other than YWG. Maybe some non P4C guys will be elected in YUL, but P4C now for the first time has the majority control and a chance to change things. They have talked the talk, but it's time for them to seize control and move us forward.

I'm hopeful that they pull all of us forward even the anchors that are trying to argue against high expectations.