ACPA LOA?

[RippleRock]

We have been betrayed by our MEC Chairman Gary Russel. I personally voted for him on his election platform. FAIL. He needs to resign.

He can take his unbelievably inept negotiating team of Dumb and Dumber with him. They are equally useless.

He and all the union members who recommended this DUD to the Membership need to head back to the line. This childishness needs to stop.

Say NO to MOA v.2.0 I promise you they are already working on it.

ACPA has lost our trust permanently. 80% of us are sick of the concession games.

[altiplano]

We have been betrayed by our MEC Chairman Gary Russel. I personally voted for him on his election platform. FAIL. He needs to resign.

He can take his unbelievably inept negotiating team of Dumb and Dumber with him. They are equally useless.

He and all the union members who recommended this DUD to the Membership need to head back to the line. This childishness needs to stop.

Say NO to MOA v.2.0 I promise you they are already working on it.

ACPA has lost our trust permanently. 80% of us are sick of the concession games.

Fuçk yeah. Send them packing.

The supporting MEC members are company bros.

NC "dumb and dumber" is perfect.

The ship has turned, time to cut the dead weight.

[rudder]

An 80% fail is an epic fail.

The ‘secret’ ballot that happened on the ACPA MEC must reveal who voted for, and who voted against, the MOA.

It is a given that the negotiators are now without any legitimacy in the eyes of AC. Perhaps also true of the leadership.

And AC must now face a new reality - a combative pilot group.

Dirty deals get done. The powerbrokers think they run the world. Thankfully, in this instance the membership had the final say.

This MOA does not need a ‘tweak’. It was rotten to the core. Throw it out. Reconstitute the NC after the duly elected reps take their seats. Set an agenda. Then communicate with the employer.

AC has no leverage and no right to force MOA bargaining. And it appears to have no dance partner on the concession train that has been running for many, many years.

[Rooster69]

An 80% fail is an epic fail.

The ‘secret’ ballot that happened on the ACPA MEC must reveal who voted for, and who voted against, the MOA.

It is a given that the negotiators are now without any legitimacy in the eyes of AC. Perhaps also true of the leadership.

And AC must now face a new reality - a combative pilot group.

Dirty deals get done. The powerbrokers think they run the world. Thankfully, in this instance the membership had the final say.

This MOA does not need a ‘tweak’. It was rotten to the core. Throw it out. Reconstitute the NC after the duly elected reps take their seats. Set an agenda. Then communicate with the employer.

AC has no leverage and no right to force MOA bargaining. And it appears to have no dance partner on the concession train that has been running for many, many years.

Please, throw your name for the negotiating committee!

[WellThatAgedWell]

The best way to AC now is probably transat. This deal is most likely to come back, jazz pilots agreement won’t be honoured. Is transat hiring?

[bcflyer]

The best way to AC now is probably transat. This deal is most likely to come back, jazz pilots agreement won’t be honoured. Is transat hiring?

This rumour again? Why would AC buy Transat? Investors look for stability. Especially in times of economic uncertainty. Buying another airline with all the related headaches is not something AC needs right now.

[schnitzel2k3]

Congrats guys on the unity, good luck at the bargaining table. The industry is behind you! Go get all the gainz.

[hithere]

The Transat deal was blocked by the European anti-competition commission. It is literally impossible to resurrect.

[sanjet]

The Transat deal was blocked by the European anti-competition commission. It is literally impossible to resurrect.

Not to mention both companies are in completely difference shape as compared to before.

[YC87DRVR]

Congrats guys on the unity, good luck at the bargaining table. The industry is behind you! Go get all the gainz.

+1

Go get what you guys deserve and have missed out on for years. Unfortunately for the Jazz pilots they made their bed when they voted in that 17 year deal, time for them to lay in it.

[Transition9er2]

Congrats guys on the unity, good luck at the bargaining table. The industry is behind you! Go get all the gainz.

+1

Go get what you guys deserve and have missed out on for years. Unfortunately for the Jazz pilots they made their bed when they voted in that 17 year deal, time for them to lay in it.

No I disagree with this. I was at jazz when the contract went through and it was forced down our throats pretty hard. I know A LOT of junior pilots who voted no, myself included. That being said, to watch the contract turn into an absolute dumpster fire warms my cold heart!

Jazz Pilots are in a really good position at the moment to demand change. Collectively they need to start getting vocal with their own union. It’s clear the 60% flow is a BIG issue at the moment, they have an opportunity to leverage that to their advantage.

Good luck to the Jazz pilot group! I certainly hope we see some changes coming your way soon.

But start getting vocal over there. Screen shot your emails to your union and spread them around to as many pilots as you can and encourage them to do the same! Start your own version of VOTE NO.

Be respectful and professional in your emails, but be very clear with your frustrations and questions.

Our industry is waking up. I’m sure you’ll have the support of every pilot group in the country back you on this!

[daedalusx]

No I disagree with this. I was at jazz when the contract went through and it was forced down our throats pretty hard. I know A LOT of junior pilots who voted no, myself included. That being said, to watch the contract turn into an absolute dumpster fire warms my cold heart!

I was there too back then and it absolutely wasn't forced down our throat and anyone with above room temperature IQ knew this was going to happen. There was a massive shortage of pilots, we had all the leverage, there was absolutely no reason to sign a 17 years death warrant. Go read some of the emails from the YYC chair back then. I'm not going to post it on a public forum but they aged really really really well.

[Latitude]

The Transat deal was blocked by the European anti-competition commission. It is literally impossible to resurrect.

With the package AC/TS brought to the European. The EU denied it ‘’ in it’s presented form’’

Never be too sure… a lot have changed and a lot will change in the next few months/years

[rudder]

The Transat deal was blocked by the European anti-competition commission. It is literally impossible to resurrect.

With the package AC/TS brought to the European. The EU denied it ‘’ in it’s presented form’’

Never be too sure… a lot have changed and a lot will change in the next few months/years

AC was told that it would have to reduce combined capacity on the North Atlantic.

They won’t get a different answer if they ask again.

[RRJetPilot]

Funny how these Transat rumours always surface at concessionary votes from the YUL FB page. If anyone actually read the EU decision and demands Transat would never be mentioned again.

[Transition9er2]

No I disagree with this. I was at jazz when the contract went through and it was forced down our throats pretty hard. I know A LOT of junior pilots who voted no, myself included. That being said, to watch the contract turn into an absolute dumpster fire warms my cold heart!

I was there too back then and it absolutely wasn't forced down our throat and anyone with above room temperature IQ knew this was going to happen. There was a massive shortage of pilots, we had all the leverage, there was absolutely no reason to sign a 17 years death warrant. Go read some of the emails from the YYC chair back then. I'm not going to post it on a public forum but they aged really really really well.

My memory is full of big CB doing his roadshows telling everyone if we vote no to the deal there is a very real possibility CR would do everything in his power to shut down Jazz entirely as a result. He used all the examples of Sky and GGN to make his point. Then whenever he was pressed with a legitimate question he’d throw his hands up and say “well, then vote no and see what happens. It’s a big gamble in my opinion”

I lost all respect for CB with how he presented that deal. IMO, he sold the contract hard.

[Dash.Trash]

Consideration of leaving jazz is very legitimate. Especially with %100 OTS hiring currently happening, and no indication if it will continue into November. I would like to stay positive too and hope in 3-6 months an active effort by all concerned parties is made to provide a definitive answer to the ‘flow’ issue: Either it continues or is scrapped. The sooner we know the sooner we can make important career decisions.

A lot of anxiety is also coming from the uncertainty as no one knows or is providing any idea of the future of flow at jazz.

Flow won’t be scrapped without HUGE payouts to the affected Jazz pilots. It’s in the contract. It was what sold many pilots on signing the long term deal that A/C wanted. I highly doubt they’ll let AC off the hook very easily.
A/C needs the problem fixed. They need pilots but they can’t currently hire from Jazz because they need the CPA flying covered and Jazz doesn’t have enough Captains to sustain the losses to AC. If they continue to hire OTS like they are doing then Jazz becomes less desirable, less pilots come and AC still can’t get the CPA flying covered. Add to the mix the fact that the flow through is in the Jazz contract and as such is subject to grievances (and possibly very large payouts if they don’t meet the 60%) and you can see that one way or another it will get fixed. Personally I think both pilot groups have quite a bit of leverage right now.

The issue to me, one of those jazzies, is this process could take years meanwhile affecting our careers.. that's the stressful part.

If your ultimate goal is to get to AC, think about this:

Say you leave for Flair. Put in some time there. Apply at AC and get an interview. How do you think it would go over explaining in an interview why you deserve to be hired by AC, having quit Jazz (causing them to have to replace you, costing them money) to try and skirt around a flow agreement?

Just food for thought.

[DanWEC]

So now that this is quashed, inquiring minds are curious as to how long it might be until another MOA? The flat pay is the only sticking point for a lot of experienced people. Instant recruitment fix. Hash out the Jazz thing later.

[truedude]

Flow won’t be scrapped without HUGE payouts to the affected Jazz pilots. It’s in the contract. It was what sold many pilots on signing the long term deal that A/C wanted. I highly doubt they’ll let AC off the hook very easily.
A/C needs the problem fixed. They need pilots but they can’t currently hire from Jazz because they need the CPA flying covered and Jazz doesn’t have enough Captains to sustain the losses to AC. If they continue to hire OTS like they are doing then Jazz becomes less desirable, less pilots come and AC still can’t get the CPA flying covered. Add to the mix the fact that the flow through is in the Jazz contract and as such is subject to grievances (and possibly very large payouts if they don’t meet the 60%) and you can see that one way or another it will get fixed. Personally I think both pilot groups have quite a bit of leverage right now.

The issue to me, one of those jazzies, is this process could take years meanwhile affecting our careers.. that's the stressful part.

If your ultimate goal is to get to AC, think about this:

Say you leave for Flair. Put in some time there. Apply at AC and get an interview. How do you think it would go over explaining in an interview why you deserve to be hired by AC, having quit Jazz (causing them to have to replace you, costing them money) to try and skirt around a flow agreement?

Just food for thought.

You tell them you had a family to feed, and Jazz wasn't paying enough. Not to mention that flow is not a guarantee job offer, and you needed to protect your career.

[flyinmanzan]

An 80% fail is an epic fail.

The ‘secret’ ballot that happened on the ACPA MEC must reveal who voted for, and who voted against, the MOA.

It is a given that the negotiators are now without any legitimacy in the eyes of AC. Perhaps also true of the leadership.

And AC must now face a new reality - a combative pilot group.

Dirty deals get done. The powerbrokers think they run the world. Thankfully, in this instance the membership had the final say.

This MOA does not need a ‘tweak’. It was rotten to the core. Throw it out. Reconstitute the NC after the duly elected reps take their seats. Set an agenda. Then communicate with the employer.

AC has no leverage and no right to force MOA bargaining. And it appears to have no dance partner on the concession train that has been running for many, many years.

Please, throw your name for the negotiating committee!

Pardon my ignorance, but why are pilots even doing the negotiating? Why not utilize skilled negotiators who do it for a living? I’m sure it’ll cost a pretty penny but probably worth it considering what’s at stake…?