ACPA LOA?

[QKZXKV]

The US carriers are also very open about sharing their MOA/MOS or whatever you want to call it. Alaska shared theirs recently. Young whippersnappers who are on flat pay, take a look at what the US version of WestJet is going to get paid/retro-paid... Old guys who this doesn't affect, pls keep your opinions to yourself unless asked and let the younger group decide what's best (this ain't it).

Also, ALPA Canada is not the answer to every problem. The rot runs deep there too!

The 17 year deal at Jazz that you are sh!!ting on included a 60% flow and a max 10% PFO rate. Prior to that Jazz people were PFO’d at a much higher rate. The JAZ MEC used bargaining capital to increase flow that you have clearly used to make it to the NHL. So you might want to thank the ALPA Canada MEC of Jazz that you were part of instead of making stupid accusations. You are welcome.
Have you considered the irony that in the same week(like two days apart) WestJet mainline pilots voted unanimously to cancel the PTA(current Encore Pilots grandfathered) to force the company to raise salary at Encore(because why the hell would you go to Encore unless you got a mainline number) and recognize one MEC for both Encore and mainline, meanwhile ACPA sends a deal to the members to ratify that will ensure Jazz pay rates remain depressed?

A 60% rate that they admitted they won't honour... so what's your point (assuming you have one?). This obsession about following this fool's golden carrot of "flow" is preposterous and asinine.

[BTD]

The guy is a mess so whatever. From what I reading here, If this deal is voted down it is not the Jazz flow piece that is the showstopper. However I implore you to understand that a rising tide floats all boats. You want to compare yourselves to the gains that have been made in the US. Surely you realize those gains have been made by working together with the various CPA carriers in the US? If you vote down this TA then it will make it difficult for AC to recruit pilots from both Jazz(because doing so will compromise the Jazz operations) and off the street(because flat pay sucks). I
Don’t you get it? Vote this thing down and the ACPA MEC and Jazz MEC can work together to get something that benefits everyone by working together

I’m not sure what you said in there. But,

Vote it down. Both Jazz and AC will have to raise rates to attract people.

[Dias]

Cargo wet lease. Fine remove 10% discount on 767. Ensure all future cargo ops are flown at the normal formula rate. Remove that weak language about the 77F.

Jazz flow through. Okay. Remove 4 year flat pay. After probation straight on to formula. Once the above is all taken care of, then raise all rates by 10%. And 5% a year until the end of the contract due to current inflation.

Exactly! The cargo wet leases are the perfect opportunity to get rid of 90% Cargo pay. The executives NEED these wet leases otherwise they are completely screwed on the cargo contracts they have already signed.

I'm starting to think Canadian pilots are too nice to be able to negotiate properly. Let's get some sharks to do it for us.

[negative_g]

Cargo wet lease. Fine remove 10% discount on 767. Ensure all future cargo ops are flown at the normal formula rate. Remove that weak language about the 77F.

Jazz flow through. Okay. Remove 4 year flat pay. After probation straight on to formula. Once the above is all taken care of, then raise all rates by 10%. And 5% a year until the end of the contract due to current inflation.

Exactly! The cargo wet leases are the perfect opportunity to get rid of 90% Cargo pay. The executives NEED these wet leases otherwise they are completely screwed on the cargo contracts they have already signed.

I'm starting to think Canadian pilots are too nice to be able to negotiate properly. Let's get some sharks to do it for us.

We "took" a -10% rate on the F767 because the company said it was risky to get into cargo and we needed to match CargoJet (without noticing they have a 16 day cap and IIRC 80 or 85 hour minimum guarantee per month... but that's a whole different story). So we take the discounted rate, the next day they announce the new VP of Cargo. So clearly the program was going to go ahead regardless, you don't find a VP in a day. And then they buy new F767s, and THEN F777s!

And now we are we leasing to an American company because we can't actually do all the flying we are signing contracts for? Sounds like cargo isn't so risky after all? F767 pay needs to return to the historical B767 pay NOW. (And install a coffee maker).

[Dockjock]

Red flags of every negotiation

expansion
time limited contracts
hiring
wet lease
code share
training
scope
“Business case”

[RVR6000]

Cargo wet lease. Fine remove 10% discount on 767. Ensure all future cargo ops are flown at the normal formula rate. Remove that weak language about the 77F.

Jazz flow through. Okay. Remove 4 year flat pay. After probation straight on to formula. Once the above is all taken care of, then raise all rates by 10%. And 5% a year until the end of the contract due to current inflation.

Exactly! The cargo wet leases are the perfect opportunity to get rid of 90% Cargo pay. The executives NEED these wet leases otherwise they are completely screwed on the cargo contracts they have already signed.

I'm starting to think Canadian pilots are too nice to be able to negotiate properly. Let's get some sharks to do it for us.

We "took" a -10% rate on the F767 because the company said it was risky to get into cargo and we needed to match CargoJet (without noticing they have a 16 day cap and IIRC 80 or 85 hour minimum guarantee per month... but that's a whole different story). So we take the discounted rate, the next day they announce the new VP of Cargo. So clearly the program was going to go ahead regardless, you don't find a VP in a day. And then they buy new F767s, and THEN F777s!

And now we are we leasing to an American company because we can't actually do all the flying we are signing contracts for? Sounds like cargo isn't so risky after all? F767 pay needs to return to the historical B767 pay NOW. (And install a coffee maker).

Let’s not forget the very next month they handed out $10 million in bonuses to all managers in the middle of a pandemic when the company was loosing millions daily.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

I can't watch anymore. They keep calling it "big gains".

I love how they keep pushing the 2% pay increase in April still being included as part of the ‘gains.’

It’s embarrassing they think like this.

-Jimmy

So exactly what kind of "gains" where or are you expecting, what would be considered a reasonable gain at this point? It's never going to jump immediately to the remuneration being seen south of the 49th parallel.

Fair question. There is no reason it should jump to USA levels of compensation for this type of MOA but my comment plays to the mentality of the MEC/NC. The already negotiated 2% increase should not be a selling point for this MOA.

However the giving of permanent concessions for temporary training problems is disappointing. There is no reason the DBM increase or Displacement rule changes should be permanent. Those two items have massive implications on QOL of the WB fleet. Both these result in more days worked and the later in less pay.

Prime example of what would be an acceptable gain .. when displaced for training and still forced to work the flight the pilot should be paid 1.5 or 2x for it. The company has the same or better pilot costs but gains on the pilot utilization and the pilot affected get compensated for losing the time off.

The Scope and Jazz LOA concessions also allow less pilots to be hired at Jazz and removes WAWCON pressure at Jazz and crewing problems at AC. The 60% hiring from jazz leave a massive experience gap at mainline and flight ops is seeing the resulting problems with this in failed training events and upgrades. This is not an ACPA problem.

Going forward the hiring problem will only increase. Sr Mgmt might not see it as an issue now, but removing any pressure on it with this MOA only weakens our position in 12 months.

If Flt ops wants to get rid of flat pay as the VP Flt Ops has openly suggested, then they can do so at the stroke of a pen without the pilot group having to give anything to get it.


-Jimmy

[RVR6000]

I love how they keep pushing the 2% pay increase in April still being included as part of the ‘gains.’

It’s embarrassing they think like this.

-Jimmy

So exactly what kind of "gains" where or are you expecting, what would be considered a reasonable gain at this point? It's never going to jump immediately to the remuneration being seen south of the 49th parallel.

Going forward the hiring problem will only increase. Sr Mgmt might not see it as an issue now, but removing any pressure on it with this MOA only weakens our position in 12 months.

If Flt ops wants to get rid of flat pay as the VP Flt Ops has openly suggested, then they can do so at the stroke of a pen without the pilot group having to give anything to get it.


-Jimmy

Exactly, it’s in our interest to see managment having issues crewing this airline next year in the middle of contract negotiations. Why are we giving up our leverage for chump change.

[negative_g]

The US carriers are also very open about sharing their MOA/MOS or whatever you want to call it. Alaska shared theirs recently. Young whippersnappers who are on flat pay, take a look at what the US version of WestJet is going to get paid/retro-paid... Old guys who this doesn't affect, pls keep your opinions to yourself unless asked and let the younger group decide what's best (this ain't it).

Also, ALPA Canada is not the answer to every problem. The rot runs deep there too!

The 17 year deal at Jazz that you are sh!!ting on included a 60% flow and a max 10% PFO rate. Prior to that Jazz people were PFO’d at a much higher rate. The JAZ MEC used bargaining capital to increase flow that you have clearly used to make it to the NHL. So you might want to thank the ALPA Canada MEC of Jazz that you were part of instead of making stupid accusations. You are welcome.
Have you considered the irony that in the same week(like two days apart) WestJet mainline pilots voted unanimously to cancel the PTA(current Encore Pilots grandfathered) to force the company to raise salary at Encore(because why the hell would you go to Encore unless you got a mainline number) and recognize one MEC for both Encore and mainline, meanwhile ACPA sends a deal to the members to ratify that will ensure Jazz pay rates remain depressed?

A 60% rate that they admitted they won't honour... so what's your point (assuming you have one?). This obsession about following this fool's golden carrot of "flow" is preposterous and asinine.

If they don't honour it, Jazz will have a mass exodus. To Flair, Porter and the like. To get out of the AC system and then apply OTS. AC is in a lose lose position if this deal doesn't happen. If they don't' flow anyone, the carrot is gone and they need to raise pay to attract DECs because they'll all leave. If they do follow the agreement for 60% then the Jazz planes don't have crews.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

The 17 year deal at Jazz that you are sh!!ting on included a 60% flow and a max 10% PFO rate. Prior to that Jazz people were PFO’d at a much higher rate. The JAZ MEC used bargaining capital to increase flow that you have clearly used to make it to the NHL. So you might want to thank the ALPA Canada MEC of Jazz that you were part of instead of making stupid accusations. You are welcome.
Have you considered the irony that in the same week(like two days apart) WestJet mainline pilots voted unanimously to cancel the PTA(current Encore Pilots grandfathered) to force the company to raise salary at Encore(because why the hell would you go to Encore unless you got a mainline number) and recognize one MEC for both Encore and mainline, meanwhile ACPA sends a deal to the members to ratify that will ensure Jazz pay rates remain depressed?

A 60% rate that they admitted they won't honour... so what's your point (assuming you have one?). This obsession about following this fool's golden carrot of "flow" is preposterous and asinine.

If they don't honour it, Jazz will have a mass exodus. To Flair, Porter and the like. To get out of the AC system and then apply OTS. AC is in a lose lose position if this deal doesn't happen. If they don't' flow anyone, the carrot is gone and they need to raise pay to attract DECs because they'll all leave. If they do follow the agreement for 60% then the Jazz planes don't have crews.

So you mean ACPA have leverage and could do better?……

-Jimmy

[QKZXKV]

The 17 year deal at Jazz that you are sh!!ting on included a 60% flow and a max 10% PFO rate. Prior to that Jazz people were PFO’d at a much higher rate. The JAZ MEC used bargaining capital to increase flow that you have clearly used to make it to the NHL. So you might want to thank the ALPA Canada MEC of Jazz that you were part of instead of making stupid accusations. You are welcome.
Have you considered the irony that in the same week(like two days apart) WestJet mainline pilots voted unanimously to cancel the PTA(current Encore Pilots grandfathered) to force the company to raise salary at Encore(because why the hell would you go to Encore unless you got a mainline number) and recognize one MEC for both Encore and mainline, meanwhile ACPA sends a deal to the members to ratify that will ensure Jazz pay rates remain depressed?

A 60% rate that they admitted they won't honour... so what's your point (assuming you have one?). This obsession about following this fool's golden carrot of "flow" is preposterous and asinine.

If they don't honour it, Jazz will have a mass exodus. To Flair, Porter and the like. To get out of the AC system and then apply OTS. AC is in a lose lose position if this deal doesn't happen. If they don't' flow anyone, the carrot is gone and they need to raise pay to attract DECs because they'll all leave. If they do follow the agreement for 60% then the Jazz planes don't have crews.

They literally said they won't honour it... Their MEC is drooling over this as a possibility of undoing what they thought was a good idea with the 2019 MOS. Hell, they pulled the Express hiring portal the other day completely.

[negative_g]

A 60% rate that they admitted they won't honour... so what's your point (assuming you have one?). This obsession about following this fool's golden carrot of "flow" is preposterous and asinine.

If they don't honour it, Jazz will have a mass exodus. To Flair, Porter and the like. To get out of the AC system and then apply OTS. AC is in a lose lose position if this deal doesn't happen. If they don't' flow anyone, the carrot is gone and they need to raise pay to attract DECs because they'll all leave. If they do follow the agreement for 60% then the Jazz planes don't have crews.

They literally said they won't honour it... Their MEC is drooling over this as a possibility of undoing what they thought was a good idea with the 2019 MOS. Hell, they pulled the Express hiring portal the other day completely.

I could see that entire 10 year extension thrown out in court since the 60% hiring agreement was a MAJOR reason why that passed ratification. That would mean Jazz would be entering negotiations in a year or so. Huge leverage for them there. They got what they wanted by getting rid of GGN and SKR and then get to possibly throw away the 10 year extension? They must be stoked. We are really our own worst enemies here in Canada (ACPA) claiming unity then blindsiding other labour groups.

[QKZXKV]

If they don't honour it, Jazz will have a mass exodus. To Flair, Porter and the like. To get out of the AC system and then apply OTS. AC is in a lose lose position if this deal doesn't happen. If they don't' flow anyone, the carrot is gone and they need to raise pay to attract DECs because they'll all leave. If they do follow the agreement for 60% then the Jazz planes don't have crews.

They literally said they won't honour it... Their MEC is drooling over this as a possibility of undoing what they thought was a good idea with the 2019 MOS. Hell, they pulled the Express hiring portal the other day completely.

I could see that entire 10 year extension thrown out in court since the 60% hiring agreement was a MAJOR reason why that passed ratification. That would mean Jazz would be entering negotiations in a year or so. Huge leverage for them there. They got what they wanted by getting rid of GGN and SKR and then get to possibly throw away the 10 year extension? They must be stoked. We are really our own worst enemies here in Canada (ACPA) claiming unity then blindsiding other labour groups.

I don't see it... Any pushback from the pilot group at Jazz over this flow thing, and AC will just buy Jazz off of Chorus (look at the stock prices for CHR). Once that's done the CPA is torn up instantly and that's the end of that problem in the eyes of AC. Also if these nonsensical electric planes do find their way in the air, it WILL NOT be flown by Jazz pilots. Therefore, we see a new AC Express carrier forming once again.

And what I say above is a pretty common feeling amongst the Jazz pilot group... we shall see!

[throwawaycorporate]

I love how they keep pushing the 2% pay increase in April still being included as part of the ‘gains.’

It’s embarrassing they think like this.

-Jimmy

So exactly what kind of "gains" where or are you expecting, what would be considered a reasonable gain at this point? It's never going to jump immediately to the remuneration being seen south of the 49th parallel.

Fair question. There is no reason it should jump to USA levels of compensation for this type of MOA but my comment plays to the mentality of the MEC/NC. The already negotiated 2% increase should not be a selling point for this MOA.

However the giving of permanent concessions for temporary training problems is disappointing. There is no reason the DBM increase or Displacement rule changes should be permanent. Those two items have massive implications on QOL of the WB fleet. Both these result in more days worked and the later in less pay.

Prime example of what would be an acceptable gain .. when displaced for training and still forced to work the flight the pilot should be paid 1.5 or 2x for it. The company has the same or better pilot costs but gains on the pilot utilization and the pilot affected get compensated for losing the time off.

The Scope and Jazz LOA concessions also allow less pilots to be hired at Jazz and removes WAWCON pressure at Jazz and crewing problems at AC. The 60% hiring from jazz leave a massive experience gap at mainline and flight ops is seeing the resulting problems with this in failed training events and upgrades. This is not an ACPA problem.

Going forward the hiring problem will only increase. Sr Mgmt might not see it as an issue now, but removing any pressure on it with this MOA only weakens our position in 12 months.

If Flt ops wants to get rid of flat pay as the VP Flt Ops has openly suggested, then they can do so at the stroke of a pen without the pilot group having to give anything to get it.


-Jimmy

As an outsider, what does DBM mean? How will widebody pilots be forced to work more days?

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

So exactly what kind of "gains" where or are you expecting, what would be considered a reasonable gain at this point? It's never going to jump immediately to the remuneration being seen south of the 49th parallel.

Fair question. There is no reason it should jump to USA levels of compensation for this type of MOA but my comment plays to the mentality of the MEC/NC. The already negotiated 2% increase should not be a selling point for this MOA.

However the giving of permanent concessions for temporary training problems is disappointing. There is no reason the DBM increase or Displacement rule changes should be permanent. Those two items have massive implications on QOL of the WB fleet. Both these result in more days worked and the later in less pay.

Prime example of what would be an acceptable gain .. when displaced for training and still forced to work the flight the pilot should be paid 1.5 or 2x for it. The company has the same or better pilot costs but gains on the pilot utilization and the pilot affected get compensated for losing the time off.

The Scope and Jazz LOA concessions also allow less pilots to be hired at Jazz and removes WAWCON pressure at Jazz and crewing problems at AC. The 60% hiring from jazz leave a massive experience gap at mainline and flight ops is seeing the resulting problems with this in failed training events and upgrades. This is not an ACPA problem.

Going forward the hiring problem will only increase. Sr Mgmt might not see it as an issue now, but removing any pressure on it with this MOA only weakens our position in 12 months.

If Flt ops wants to get rid of flat pay as the VP Flt Ops has openly suggested, then they can do so at the stroke of a pen without the pilot group having to give anything to get it.


-Jimmy

As an outsider, what does DBM mean? How will widebody pilots be forced to work more days?

DBM is the maximum hours people can be scheduled to every month. Also a metric used to balance flying between bases and other things in the contract. Higher hours every month means that less pilots are required to cover the same amount of flying hours because they can be scheduled to work more. 18+ days a month of unproductive European trips for some of the more junior members.

-Jimmy

[Loon-A-Tic]

The concept of flow to AC is a "loss leader"; a red herring, throw it away. It's time and place in the big picture has come and gone.

Don't waste your shells on ducks when there's geese flying into the decoys.

[nowind]

You guys worry too much! Its all part of the strategy didnt you get it? Close your eyes and enjoy the ride we re in good hands for 23 and 24!

[hithere]

The common sentiment in this thread is trying to get USA type gains up here in Canada. Guess what? That started as the US pulled out of Covid and the CPA carriers joined forces with their mainline carriers and refused to budge on concessions or marginal gains. For once in Canada if we all could just work together we could realize gains for both groups. This divide and conquer bullshit has been going on for over 30 years and is the reason we are going nowhere fast

[We_tu_lo]

The common sentiment in this thread is trying to get USA type gains up here in Canada. Guess what? That started as the US pulled out of Covid and the CPA carriers joined forces with their mainline carriers and refused to budge on concessions or marginal gains. For once in Canada if we all could just work together we could realize gains for both groups. This divide and conquer bullshit has been going on for over 30 years and is the reason we are going nowhere fast

Heck yes, vote this BS down. Time to team up against the real other team: management.

[sportingrifle]

Please explain the permanent concessions.

Seriously Barry?

SCOPE
Training Language
DBM Lets
Tentative Displacement

and the biggest permanent give: historic leverage we will likely never see again, squandered on peanuts

Yesmassapayson

Firstly, I know Barry but I am not Barry. Wrong guy.

SCOPE. 55 seat jets and 80 seat turboprops have absolutely no impact on any AC pilot. It is not ACPA’s job to protect Jazz jobs.
Training Language. Improves training pilot pay and allows larger blocks during training only at a pilots discretion. Expires in 12 months.
Cargo wet lease. Expires in 12 months.
DBM’s..expires in 12 months.
Tentative displacement…a win for pilots who now will be released from flights 24 hours in advance instead of 3:15 in advance. Huge benefit for commuters. Not sure but I think unfortunately this will also end in 12 months.

As far as squandering leverage goes - total non issue. The planned hiring requirements are making the pilot shortage an even bigger issue going forward. Much more than currently so. This MOA is about training who we plan to hire in the next 6 months.
I just confirmed with ACPA rep that my math on new hire wages is correct.

You really need to get off the keyboard and watch the webinar or read some of the info. You are demonstrating that you really have little understanding of the MOA.