ACPA LOA?

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
rudder
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3848
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

ACPA LOA?

Post by rudder »

Discuss.
---------- ADS -----------
 
negative_g
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:35 am

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by negative_g »

Based on all my chat groups, Slack and the forum....

Lots of no's. And lots of what the @#$! is going on. I'm a hard no. This is the most leverage we've had in a decade, and we're giving it away for a few baubles and a hell of a lot more concessions than I think people realize at first glance.
---------- ADS -----------
 
WellThatAgedWell
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 467
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:38 am

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by WellThatAgedWell »

As someone just starting at jazz, I like what I heard will be on it. I hope they vote yes. Apparently we will get locked in seniority numbers?!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Two years of posts that aged like a fine cheddar.
flyingb
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:05 pm

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by flyingb »

WellThatAgedWell wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:39 pm As someone just starting at jazz, I like what I heard will be on it. I hope they vote yes. Apparently we will get locked in seniority numbers?!
As someone being in the bottom half of Jazz as well, I hope they vote no to this. like negative_g said, this is the most leverage we have possibly seen in the last decade and this is far from the industry standard. Lets not settle for peanuts and look long term rather than a short term band-aid..
---------- ADS -----------
 
yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2766
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by yycflyguy »

:lol:

MOA. Not LOA.

Although many are wishing LOAs were available after the lowlights of this MOA were released.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
RockSalty
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:47 am

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by RockSalty »

WellThatAgedWell wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:39 pm As someone just starting at jazz, I like what I heard will be on it. I hope they vote yes. Apparently we will get locked in seniority numbers?!
Ok cool so you get a number at AC and now pay at jazz can stay in the toilet because of the carrot.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Inthrustwetrust
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:28 pm

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by Inthrustwetrust »

Taking away gains from the past and giving them back isn't a win. It's just a return to status quo. There is way more on the table . Vote no
---------- ADS -----------
 
negative_g
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:35 am

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by negative_g »

yycflyguy wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:03 pm :lol:

MOA. Not LOA.

Although many are wishing LOAs were available after the lowlights of this MOA were released.
Tell that to the VP of Flight Ops at Jazz. He called it an LOA... ha
---------- ADS -----------
 
rudder
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3848
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by rudder »

negative_g wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:19 pm
yycflyguy wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:03 pm :lol:

MOA. Not LOA.

Although many are wishing LOAs were available after the lowlights of this MOA were released.
Tell that to the VP of Flight Ops at Jazz. He called it an LOA... ha
At least MS called it “an agreement in principle”.
---------- ADS -----------
 
negative_g
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:35 am

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by negative_g »

Haha "principle". Who has principles?

edit: The VP at AC should be staying out of it. His memo was extremely inappropriate.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by negative_g on Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
maverick12
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:00 pm

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by maverick12 »

negative_g wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:31 pm Haha "principle". Who has principles?

edit: The VP at AC should be staying out of it. His memo was extremely inappropriate.
What was his memo?
---------- ADS -----------
 
WellThatAgedWell
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 467
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:38 am

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by WellThatAgedWell »

maverick12 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:45 pm
negative_g wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:31 pm Haha "principle". Who has principles?

edit: The VP at AC should be staying out of it. His memo was extremely inappropriate.
What was his memo?
Roses are red, violets are blue, this agreement will benefit jazz pilots and do nothing for you. Capture the flying!l!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by WellThatAgedWell on Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Two years of posts that aged like a fine cheddar.
crashpadcommute
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:30 am

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by crashpadcommute »

RockSalty wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:06 pm
WellThatAgedWell wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:39 pm As someone just starting at jazz, I like what I heard will be on it. I hope they vote yes. Apparently we will get locked in seniority numbers?!
Ok cool so you get a number at AC and now pay at jazz can stay in the toilet because of the carrot.
This is essentially it

Everyone read that

Company trying to secure pilots without raising Jazz pay rates and removing flat pay to improve recruitment at mainline

The usual...solving company problems for pennies on the dollar
---------- ADS -----------
 
a2btrail
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:45 pm

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by a2btrail »

maverick12 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:45 pm
negative_g wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:31 pm Haha "principle". Who has principles?

edit: The VP at AC should be staying out of it. His memo was extremely inappropriate.
What was his memo?
"Jazz Aviation has been informed that Air Canada and Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) have reached agreement on an LOA that will now go to ratification. It is Jazz’s understanding that this agreement upholds Air Canada’s commitment to offer 60% of its pilot job offers to pilots on the Jazz System Seniority List.

Please note that Air Canada has closed the Air Canada Express Pilot Career Portal in the interim. I appreciate your continued professionalism while the ratification process takes place."
---------- ADS -----------
 
negative_g
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:35 am

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by negative_g »

WellThatAgedWell wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:53 pm
maverick12 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:45 pm
negative_g wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:31 pm Haha "principle". Who has principles?

edit: The VP at AC should be staying out of it. His memo was extremely inappropriate.
What was his memo?
Roses are red, violets are blue, this agreement will benefit jazz pilots and do nothing for you. Capture the flying!l!

Don't forget the whole " I can tell you from my many years as a pilot at Air Canada, the prospects for our careers are always better when the airline is strong and growing."

and

"For our airline to succeed, we must constantly adapt and address new challenges we face. This agreement will be a critical component in supporting our future success. "

AKA, fear mongering as though voting no will mean we won't be strong and growing or have success.

Pure and utter bullshit.
---------- ADS -----------
 
negative_g
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:35 am

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by negative_g »

a2btrail wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:54 pm
maverick12 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:45 pm
negative_g wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:31 pm Haha "principle". Who has principles?

edit: The VP at AC should be staying out of it. His memo was extremely inappropriate.
What was his memo?
"Jazz Aviation has been informed that Air Canada and Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) have reached agreement on an LOA that will now go to ratification. It is Jazz’s understanding that this agreement upholds Air Canada’s commitment to offer 60% of its pilot job offers to pilots on the Jazz System Seniority List.

Please note that Air Canada has closed the Air Canada Express Pilot Career Portal in the interim. I appreciate your continued professionalism while the ratification process takes place."
Was talking about the VP at AC. Not Jazz. Our VP sent a memo out basically saying VOTE YES, which in most places is considered management interference in union business. That said, interfering in our union is their specialty so it was expected.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Cavalier44
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:32 am

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by Cavalier44 »

My two cents:

Air Canada management has a requirement to staff the airline - rumour has it the number of vacancies will only grow on the next bid. Previously we were 900 short, but we're now seeing numbers as high as 1100 to be hired up until Fall 2024. Unfortunately, the reality is that the present pay scale combined with four years of flat pay is failing to attract the number of experienced candidates that they need to staff the operation going forward. Traditionally, they would have been able to rely on Jazz/Express to make up the shortfall, but due to a lack of flow combined with unattractive working conditions at Jazz, they're having difficulties in staffing their operation as well.

Jazz needs to be able to staff its own operation by offering appropriate wages and working conditions which are commensurate with present market conditions - simply adding this new carrot in the form of a reserved seniority number/LOA scheme is doing a disservice to Jazz pilots by allowing the company to continue exploiting them. Wages will continue to be suppressed until Jazz pilots are able to harness their own leverage vis-a-vis a growing pilot shortage to secure improvements in their working conditions - AC pilots would be doing them no favours by allowing this to go ahead.

Air Canada also needs to be able to staff the cargo operation, which is desperately short of aircraft due to two main reasons, namely, that IAI is dealing with delays in its cargo conversions due to unprecedented demand as well as supply chain issues, combined with the new Boeing-built 767-300F not having received Canadian certification as of yet. They obviously have significant contractual commitments that they will be unable to meet for some time, which is why they're requesting the ability to operate wet-leases for the cargo operation. Being unable to fly the routes that they're intending to with the cargo operation leaves them in the position of incurring a significant financial penalty, especially with the air cargo market being as lucrative as it is at present.

With all that being said, I believe that ACPA should be embarrassed for bringing this MOA to the pilot group. We've never had more leverage than we do right now - I hope that the pilot group will deliver a decisive "no" to this proposal. We would be foolish to take the company's first offer when they have so much to lose by not achieving an MOA with the pilot group. We should settle for nothing less than what our colleagues have been able to achieve south of the border. Personally, I think a single year of flat pay in the ~$90k range would be acceptable, followed by formula pay thereafter. Wages across the board should be increased by 5-7% to counter inflation. 100% pay for 777 freighter operations should be a given - nothing less would be acceptable in any case. If the company fails to come to an agreement at this stage, we have contract reopeners ahead in 2023 and 2024. There is no need to rush into a hasty agreement when more substantial gains are achievable for the pilot group.
---------- ADS -----------
 
negative_g
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:35 am

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by negative_g »

Cavalier44 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:17 pm My two cents:

Air Canada management has a requirement to staff the airline - rumour has it the number of vacancies will only grow on the next bid. Previously we were 900 short, but we're now seeing numbers as high as 1100 to be hired up until Fall 2024. Unfortunately, the reality is that the present pay scale combined with four years of flat pay is failing to attract the number of experienced candidates that they need to staff the operation going forward. Traditionally, they would have been able to rely on Jazz/Express to make up the shortfall, but due to a lack of flow combined with unattractive working conditions at Jazz, they're having difficulties in staffing their operation as well.

Jazz needs to be able to staff its own operation by offering appropriate wages and working conditions which are commensurate with present market conditions - simply adding this new carrot in the form of a reserved seniority number/LOA scheme is doing a disservice to Jazz pilots by allowing the company to continue exploiting them. Wages will continue to be suppressed until Jazz pilots are able to harness their own leverage vis-a-vis a growing pilot shortage to secure improvements in their working conditions - AC pilots would be doing them no favours by allowing this to go ahead.

Air Canada also needs to be able to staff the cargo operation, which is desperately short of aircraft due to two main reasons, namely, that IAI is dealing with delays in its cargo conversions due to unprecedented demand as well as supply chain issues, combined with the new Boeing-built 767-300F not having received Canadian certification as of yet. They obviously have significant contractual commitments that they will be unable to meet for some time, which is why they're requesting the ability to operate wet-leases for the cargo operation. Being unable to fly the routes that they're intending to with the cargo operation leaves them in the position of incurring a significant financial penalty, especially with the air cargo market being as lucrative as it is at present.

With all that being said, I believe that ACPA should be embarrassed for bringing this MOA to the pilot group. We've never had more leverage than we do right now - I hope that the pilot group will deliver a decisive "no" to this proposal. We would be foolish to take the company's first offer when they have so much to lose by not achieving an MOA with the pilot group. We should settle for nothing less than what our colleagues have been able to achieve south of the border. Personally, I think a single year of flat pay in the ~$90k range would be acceptable, followed by formula pay thereafter. Wages across the board should be increased by 5-7% to counter inflation. 100% pay for 777 freighter operations should be a given - nothing less would be acceptable in any case. If the company fails to come to an agreement at this stage, we have contract reopeners ahead in 2023 and 2024. There is no need to rush into a hasty agreement when more substantial gains are achievable for the pilot group.
Well said. This is the most leverage we've had in a decade.
---------- ADS -----------
 
a2btrail
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:45 pm

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by a2btrail »

Cavalier44 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:17 pm My two cents:

Air Canada management has a requirement to staff the airline - rumour has it the number of vacancies will only grow on the next bid. Previously we were 900 short, but we're now seeing numbers as high as 1100 to be hired up until Fall 2024. Unfortunately, the reality is that the present pay scale combined with four years of flat pay is failing to attract the number of experienced candidates that they need to staff the operation going forward. Traditionally, they would have been able to rely on Jazz/Express to make up the shortfall, but due to a lack of flow combined with unattractive working conditions at Jazz, they're having difficulties in staffing their operation as well.

Jazz needs to be able to staff its own operation by offering appropriate wages and working conditions which are commensurate with present market conditions - simply adding this new carrot in the form of a reserved seniority number/LOA scheme is doing a disservice to Jazz pilots by allowing the company to continue exploiting them. Wages will continue to be suppressed until Jazz pilots are able to harness their own leverage vis-a-vis a growing pilot shortage to secure improvements in their working conditions - AC pilots would be doing them no favours by allowing this to go ahead.

Air Canada also needs to be able to staff the cargo operation, which is desperately short of aircraft due to two main reasons, namely, that IAI is dealing with delays in its cargo conversions due to unprecedented demand as well as supply chain issues, combined with the new Boeing-built 767-300F not having received Canadian certification as of yet. They obviously have significant contractual commitments that they will be unable to meet for some time, which is why they're requesting the ability to operate wet-leases for the cargo operation. Being unable to fly the routes that they're intending to with the cargo operation leaves them in the position of incurring a significant financial penalty, especially with the air cargo market being as lucrative as it is at present.

With all that being said, I believe that ACPA should be embarrassed for bringing this MOA to the pilot group. We've never had more leverage than we do right now - I hope that the pilot group will deliver a decisive "no" to this proposal. We would be foolish to take the company's first offer when they have so much to lose by not achieving an MOA with the pilot group. We should settle for nothing less than what our colleagues have been able to achieve south of the border. Personally, I think a single year of flat pay in the ~$90k range would be acceptable, followed by formula pay thereafter. Wages across the board should be increased by 5-7% to counter inflation. 100% pay for 777 freighter operations should be a given - nothing less would be acceptable in any case. If the company fails to come to an agreement at this stage, we have contract reopeners ahead in 2023 and 2024. There is no need to rush into a hasty agreement when more substantial gains are achievable for the pilot group.
Well articulated. As a Jazz pilot I completely agree. I hope your group says no!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Dry Guy
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:44 pm

Re: ACPA LOA?

Post by Dry Guy »

We need a vote of non-confidence for ACPA as our representation.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”