ACPA LOA?

[QKZXKV]

Everything we have to give up in the MOA is temporary. Everything we get is permanent. The bid is delayed because the company needs to know if they have the MOA before they issue the bid. If the vote is “no” the company is likely to just issue a much reduced bid and move on. It will send a “shot across the bow” message, but in six months we will be in the full blown contract negotiations spending bargaining capital on cargo rates.

Another issue to keep in mind is how arbitration works. We may be headed there next year, probably in a recession, and the number one rule arbitrators must follow is that they cannot issue an award that imperils the financial viability of the company. Makes sense when you think about it. Which is why we do so badly - historically we have always gone into arbitration when the company is losing money and that pretty much guarantees a poor outcome.( The other thing to know is that arbitrators cannot consider wage comparisons outside of Canada. Hint. Hint.) The company is well aware of all this. It could be argued that allowing the company to grow profitably now increases our chances of success if we go to arbitration. In fact, given the company is well aware of this, it probably decreases our chances of even going to arbitration.

Nothing in this MOA is of any benefit to me at the point I am at in my career. But I have three friends who were laid off and are on flat pay. This MOA puts an additional $109K in their jeans and speeds their progress into a WB F/O or NB Capt. position. All while positioning us to make better gains in the real contract negotiations next year. I am waiting to see the actual draft language but I think at this point it would be pretty irresponsible to turn it down because of some undefined anger and an expectation that it should fix every deficiency in our entire contract. YMMV.

Laughable...

You sound like one of the JAZ MEC... Typical nonsense of false promises of leverage if we agree and fake fear porn if we don't...
Next thing I'm expecting is one of those noisemakers to try and sprinkle in CIRB conspiracies. Heavens knows I had to listen to some of those Jr Jazz captains pretend to know about how CIRB operates... as I said laughable, and we should strap dynamite to this turd.

[Fanblade]

Not spreading fear…the opposite. And I honestly don’t believe the deal is “atrocious.” But as I said, YMMV.

Inflation has been over 11% over the last two years.

This offer was offensive.

We have eroded paychecks and you think we should ignore that? Instead give the company what they want for a fraction of our missing paycheck? They get what they need but we get wage erosion?

No

That is exactly the thinking that made our CCAA pay losses permanent.

If they put out a smaller bid? Who cares. We get treated equitably or they have a tough summer 2023.

Enough is enough

[nowind]

Hey folks sorry if its been asked before but is the mec chair still afiliated with p4c? I was under the impression that he was their mastermnd. And now he is trying to sell this 1988 tercel as a Tesla while p4c is telling us to vote no. I must have missed something.

Back to the vote. I talked to a lot of the flat pay guys and they seems to think its not a bad deal. A lot of YUL guys are also convinced this thing is a good deal. Lets show our good faith to the company!

Im sure its gonna pass at 60% just like the cargo deal did. But please everyone need to be loud about it and wake up those who are shortsighted. Thats the only way. Lets all show up to the roadshow and show ACPA that we dont buy this crap.

[QKZXKV]

The part of this that bothers me is the same as when I was part of that 17yr Jazz thing. The long tenure guys all say "this doesn't affect me at this point in my career but...". Ok take a seat and let us weigh our options without bullying us into a yes vote. I see the same thing happening here and I don't like it. Those of you who are new, please don't think adjusting the flat pay as they pitch is enough to make this worth it for you... It is not!

[Aspiredtofly]

Newbie here. What would this vote mean for pilots working at AC in both yes and no

[rooster]

Hey folks sorry if its been asked before but is the mec chair still afiliated with p4c? I was under the impression that he was their mastermnd. And now he is trying to sell this 1988 tercel as a Tesla while p4c is telling us to vote no. I must have missed something.

Back to the vote. I talked to a lot of the flat pay guys and they seems to think its not a bad deal. A lot of YUL guys are also convinced this thing is a good deal. Lets show our good faith to the company!

Im sure its gonna pass at 60% just like the cargo deal did. But please everyone need to be loud about it and wake up those who are shortsighted. Thats the only way. Lets all show up to the roadshow and show ACPA that we dont buy this crap.

I smell another troll. I haven't talked to a SINGLE AC pilot, both on and off flat pay who is anywhere near impressed with this offering. Not one! I highly doubt you talked to a lot that do like it.

If y'all don't vote this down, I have no hope for you AC guys. You deserve better than what you have and what's being offered. Ball is in YOUR court and you've left enough money on the table in previous years. Go get it back! GOOD LUCK

[rooster]

Everything we have to give up in the MOA is temporary. Everything we get is permanent. The bid is delayed because the company needs to know if they have the MOA before they issue the bid. If the vote is “no” the company is likely to just issue a much reduced bid and move on. It will send a “shot across the bow” message, but in six months we will be in the full blown contract negotiations spending bargaining capital on cargo rates.

Another issue to keep in mind is how arbitration works. We may be headed there next year, probably in a recession, and the number one rule arbitrators must follow is that they cannot issue an award that imperils the financial viability of the company. Makes sense when you think about it. Which is why we do so badly - historically we have always gone into arbitration when the company is losing money and that pretty much guarantees a poor outcome.( The other thing to know is that arbitrators cannot consider wage comparisons outside of Canada. Hint. Hint.) The company is well aware of all this. It could be argued that allowing the company to grow profitably now increases our chances of success if we go to arbitration. In fact, given the company is well aware of this, it probably decreases our chances of even going to arbitration.

Nothing in this MOA is of any benefit to me at the point I am at in my career. But I have three friends who were laid off and are on flat pay. This MOA puts an additional $109K in their jeans and speeds their progress into a WB F/O or NB Capt. position. All while positioning us to make better gains in the real contract negotiations next year. I am waiting to see the actual draft language but I think at this point it would be pretty irresponsible to turn it down because of some undefined anger and an expectation that it should fix every deficiency in our entire contract. YMMV.

Oh my goodness the ignorance is real. Even the flat pay pilots hate this deal. Oh cool, an initial 11% bump. Inflation alone is what, 7%? This barely covers that, let alone what your pilots should actually be making to start. You think less than a ULCC is appropriate? Even with the increase, it does not put you above Flair or Lynx LOL!!!!

[Core]

Well there's a company man if I ever saw one....

"Definitely take the first offer"

"For sure!" Says every CEO, politician, businessman, or person who is selling a car on Kijiji who ever existed.

But not pilots!! We might not have a job and the company who has billions might go under!! Oh no!

Ok, picking up on the sarcasm?

What an absolute dogpile. I'm not exaggerating when I say I get a knot in my stomach when I read this shit from pilots in my native county. Please guys, wake the @#$! up. Stop saying yes and stop paying pseudo-management groups whom you pay and call unions to say it for you as well.

Full stop. Get what you're worth, then you work.

[negative_g]

edit: forget it. Not going to give these idiots the time of day.

[RippleRock]

To be blunt, were being offered a steaming pile of dog$hit. Typical ACPA fashion. No language, quick countdown till the vote. Loose endorsement, but send it to the Membership anyways. (wtf). No time to properly vet the conditions. Holes in the language you can drive a truck through.

ACPA -GO AWAY!!

Take your collusional cabal with you.

Gary Russell, YOU own this. RESIGN IMMEDIATELY.

I had such high hopes for you. What a sell out.

[bcflyer]

Everything we have to give up in the MOA is temporary. Everything we get is permanent. The bid is delayed because the company needs to know if they have the MOA before they issue the bid. If the vote is “no” the company is likely to just issue a much reduced bid and move on. It will send a “shot across the bow” message, but in six months we will be in the full blown contract negotiations spending bargaining capital on cargo rates.

Another issue to keep in mind is how arbitration works. We may be headed there next year, probably in a recession, and the number one rule arbitrators must follow is that they cannot issue an award that imperils the financial viability of the company. Makes sense when you think about it. Which is why we do so badly - historically we have always gone into arbitration when the company is losing money and that pretty much guarantees a poor outcome.( The other thing to know is that arbitrators cannot consider wage comparisons outside of Canada. Hint. Hint.) The company is well aware of all this. It could be argued that allowing the company to grow profitably now increases our chances of success if we go to arbitration. In fact, given the company is well aware of this, it probably decreases our chances of even going to arbitration.

Nothing in this MOA is of any benefit to me at the point I am at in my career. But I have three friends who were laid off and are on flat pay. This MOA puts an additional $109K in their jeans and speeds their progress into a WB F/O or NB Capt. position. All while positioning us to make better gains in the real contract negotiations next year. I am waiting to see the actual draft language but I think at this point it would be pretty irresponsible to turn it down because of some undefined anger and an expectation that it should fix every deficiency in our entire contract. YMMV.

I have a few questions on your reasoning. First I think you made a bit of a typo on the extra amount your friends will make. $10500 as per the ACPA release. Not $109,000.

Secondly I’m not sure I understand how this speeds your friends entry into WB f/O positions or NB CA. The MOA allows an increase in DBM for WJA which means less positions not more. (Pilots fly more hours = less pilots required to cover the flying)

I also fail to see how giving up our one big leverage now (difficulty recruiting pilots) will position us to make bigger gains later. If we fix their pilot recruitment problem for peanuts now, why would they give us more next year? What would their incentive be to increase our pay or address the litany of other issues?

As you mentioned there is the possibility of a recession in the next year or two. Why should we wait until that happens to make gains when the company needs our help now?

Apart from those items I also have an issue with the 777 freighter language, (why not just say that they will be paid mainine 777 pay? Period. No extra language required. I also find it odd that ACPA is selling the wet lease credits as a gain. We already have a section on wet lease credits in our CA. We already have it. How is that a gain?

Yes there is an emotional element to this. However when you look at just the facts before us I find it difficult to see the gains we are being told are there.

[sportingrifle]

Bcflyer…the ACPA information is poorly written and the devil is in the details, so I am not making up my mind until I read the actual MOA.

My math was based on the fact the my colleague’s are all year one new hires. This MOA puts them on formula pay two years earlier. At north of a $55k/yr increase that is over $100k.

The whole purpose of the MOA is to allow the implementation of a future large bid. The growth in WB block hours is the clue as to where the growth is planned. Without the MOA the training required to implement the bid is not possible. (IMHO the bid still requires a lot of stars to align and is somewhat unrealistic. But that is not our problem, if the company wants to try and implement it, good for them.) This significant upbid (and the one behind it) would allow current NB F/O’s to progress to higher paying WB F/O’s or NB. Capt’s one to two years earlier than they would if the bid wasn’t implemented.

The wet lease is not something ACPA or the company likes. A cargo opportunity has become available that we don’t have the aircraft to serve. The company has done the math and decided the contract is still profitable after paying wet lease credits. The same thing was done when we wet leased Omni’s DC-10’s while awaiting our own Triples. You are correct that it isn’t a gain but it would still require an MOA.

As I said, I want to see the fine print and have the details explained at a roadshow. But for the very junior members the MOA is a six figure amount in their jeans in the next few years, and potentially much more than that over a life time career earnings.

[Alkasultzer]

There are PERMANENT scope & training concessions here.

AC pilots are a joke when we compare to any global carrier.

There should not be ANY concessions when the data clearly makes this pilot group look like an international joke

How much more scope are we going to have to give up to get a 7% raise to match inflation??

The philosophy to be giving up ANYTHING needs to be taken behind the barn and laid to rest.

There should be nothing but gains for this group moving forward

Obviously the MEC Chair has lost the plot and will have to get the boot. From hero to zero in record time. It's actually impressive. The ACPA CEO has dirty paws all over this too

You build a 1000 bridges and then f#@k one sheep, you're not remembered as a bridge builder...

We are getting royally f'd in this deal

Do the industry a favor and vote HELL NO

[sportingrifle]

Please explain the permanent concessions.

[YesMassaPayson]

Please explain the permanent concessions.

Seriously Barry?

SCOPE
Training Language
DBM Lets
Tentative Displacement

and the biggest permanent give: historic leverage we will likely never see again, squandered on peanuts

[rudder]

Im sure its gonna pass at 60% just like the cargo deal did.

A 60% result is a failure to represent the group. Sure, it is a majority, but how is 51% pass a ‘win’? 49% of your constituents feel left behind.

It is this mentality (50%+1) at the bargaining table that leads to underwhelming agreements and fractured Pilot solidarity.

The worst thing any bargaining agent can do is alienate up to half of its members. Hell, even 25% is too many.

[negative_g]

My math was based on the fact the my colleague’s are all year one new hires. This MOA puts them on formula pay two years earlier. At north of a $55k/yr increase that is over $100k.

Wait a minute. Are you so out of touch that you think flat pay is the same for all four years?

Where are you getting 55k increase? Time to go back to school, your math is wrong. Very very wrong.

[Fanblade]

Im sure its gonna pass at 60% just like the cargo deal did.

A 60% result is a failure to represent the group. Sure, it is a majority, but how is 51% pass a ‘win’? 49% of your constituents feel left behind.

It is this mentality (50%+1) at the bargaining table that leads to underwhelming agreements and fractured Pilot solidarity.

The worst thing any bargaining agent can do is alienate up to half of its members. Hell, even 25% is too many.

Exactly,

Yet ACPA does it all the time.

Then wonders why we are fractured.

Part of me thinks the company and ACPA know their window of opportunity is closing. Based on the latest election results. Change has control come January

[Fanblade]

My math was based on the fact the my colleague’s are all year one new hires. This MOA puts them on formula pay two years earlier. At north of a $55k/yr increase that is over $100k.

Wait a minute. Are you so out of touch that you think flat pay is the same for all four years?

Where are you getting 55k increase? Time to go back to school, your math is wrong. Very very wrong.

If one were to cherry pick a case it is probably true. Let’s say a new hire forced on to the 777 FO position. Year 3 and 4 would be a good uplift.

But cherry picking a specific situation that might apply to tiny percentage of people. Deliberately misleading.

[FatPilot]

I hope EVERY pilot goes to the road show. Find a way to send a message.