Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

[Ratherbe]

"Not sure what the deal is with the anti p4c rhetoric. This isn't their mess. This is on the Chair, the old guard and an acpa staff that doesn't even know what a pilot looks like"

The backlash against the P4C it's likely because of the way their leaders have behaved and how ineffective they have been. Sooner or later they need to stop blaming everyone else and accept responsibility for their failure to deliver on their promises.

P4C supported the MEC Chair and got him elected. They cleaned house removing the "old guard" and inserted their own. Including the Negotiating Committee.

Now P4C has turned against the pilots they endorsed and supported. The P4C leaders, particularly the ones who got fired, look like incompetent buffoons - maybe that's why ACPA staff don't recognize them.

[lenaumade]

Hi,

I just copied this message from the other thread but it is the same subject.

First and foremost, I think we can all debate and respect each other choice to vote whatever we want, and respect that choice.

I really really hope I am wrong but...:

1) There is no competition with Air Canada concerning the pilots wages and conditions. Westjet do not pay enough, they don t have a pension funds etc...WJ pilots are coming to AC and not the opposite.
So our market is very different from the US since there is only one company. Not Four or Five majors trying to give the best deal to experiences pilots

2) Today, the stock market is at his lowest since 1930...yeah....And the mortgage rate are super high. Next year, there will be less people going to vacation since a lots of them will see their mortgage goint up by 4%. Which will be a disaster for many families. So maybe a decrease in demand for air travel.

3) if in a year there is less passenger then...the negocitation will be very different of what we think of it as of now. If the company got less buisness next year and we come to the table to negociate....They re gonna give us a shitty contract.

4) Maybe the company will come back with a counteroffer, you seem sure of it....but...maybe not.
There is nothing certain of that. I hope I am wrong also.

5) the union did this following the poll. The result and the main subject was to get rid of the flat pay. 2 years is still too long but see my point number 1 why they do not really care. the 2 years is big gain for all the guy on the flat pay. It is ajump in wages between 30 to 50%. But since a lot of you are out of the flat pay, you are looking at what's in it for you. So here's the so called pilot unity.
Most of thoses guy got furloughed and this increase in wages will count as the years of service lost during the 18 month of pandemic.
The new members are struggling not the 9 years Wide body FO or the new captain.
So if you vote yes you actually will help those guys.
if you vote no you will help your condition because you have nothing to lose saying no. The flatpayer will have another year on the flatpay until negociation.


4) We re all talking about pilot unity but most of the complaints are the guys on WB who will have to work 85dbm instead of 80 for pratically the same wages. Totally understandable. Then the argument is that we will save some pilot job. Valid argument but lets be honest here. That is not why you are not happy with this dbm. It is because you will lose 5 hours.

5) The wet lease is for 12 months only. So it is not like it s something permanent. And in 12 month if they want to continue that may be a good tool to negociate something else.

6) I hear a lot of "we are not negociationg for Jazz" here again is your "pilot unity". AC is hiring everybody except the jazz guy for the last 6 months. This LOa would allow them to get into the company and still meet the operationnal need at jazz. How come is it not a good idea? I m happy for the jazz guy. This will be our future colleague and they need to be treated well and differently than us when we arrived on property.

7) so here is how it will go : Flatpayer will vote yes in majority or 50/50 because they want to get out of the flat pay.
the 5-12 will vote no because they do not have any gain to do so
the Cargo guy will vote no because of the fear of the wet lease
the plus 12 years narrowbody will vote yes and the +12 years widebody will vote no
Here again is your pilot unity. Everybody is preaching for his own church

Negociation is next year. Maybe I am wrong but I doubt we will do a union change during this year. Changing union can be very long.

9) A strike is a leverage. and the only real one. That is the sad truth. But again, who will follow a movement like that?

[negative_g]

You're wrong on pretty much all points. But I respect your right to your opinion.

[lenaumade]

That is a strong argument...

[teacher]

When looking at an ACPA/AC MOA or TA one has to always think what does the company have planned?

The pilot group signed a 10 year deal with locked in raises of only 2% and than had the company achieve record flying and record profits.

AC had to get PERMANENT 10% less wages to make the cargo division profitable due to it’s risky nature and a year or so later they sign onto a courier service, purchase 777 freighters and need to sub contract cargo flying due to over whelming demand and profitability.

Don’t play checkers when the company is playing chess.

[bob99]

7) so here is how it will go : Flatpayer will vote yes in majority or 50/50 because they want to get out of the flat pay.
the 5-12 will vote no because they do not have any gain to do so
the Cargo guy will vote no because of the fear of the wet lease
the plus 12 years narrowbody will vote yes and the +12 years widebody will vote no

The furloughs and flat-payers have been the most vocal ‘No’ group thus far.

[lenaumade]

You got no way to know that except if you look on slack and social network which is not representative of the whole group. Maybe you re right, Maybe you re wrong. Nobody can know that yet.

[negative_g]

Slack has 1000 members. And it's been basically 100% no on there.

Over what, 800 NO votes on the forum? Everyone in my pit class is voting no. Every single one of my friends and acquaintances I've talked to in the last few days who are year 1-3 and a number at like 5-7 YOS are all voting no and not just "yeah I'll vote no"... no it's "@#$! NO".

The only place I've heard even a hint of leaning yes is YUL and ex-military. But that's expected. YUL is an echo chamber of fear and scare tactics by their LEC Chair, and ex-mil often feel a lot more trusting of their "leaders" than those who come from civilian. Not everyone of course, ain't painting everyone the same here but when you live with chain of command for 25 years it becomes ingrained in you.

[bcflyer]

I’m am a year 16 NB guy and I’m a hard no. All my friends in the same seniority are hard no’s. (Why would you vote yes for less than 3% BEFORE tax?), Both the furlough guys that I just flew with are hard No’s. The year 4 and 5 guys I just flew with are hard no’s. I’ve heard rumours if of a few WB captains voting yes but the ones I know personally are all voting no. Guess we’ll see what happens.

[lenaumade]

Slack has 1000 members. And it's been basically 100% no on there.

Over what, 800 NO votes on the forum? Everyone in my pit class is voting no. Every single one of my friends and acquaintances I've talked to in the last few days who are year 1-3 and a number at like 5-7 YOS are all voting no and not just "yeah I'll vote no"... no it's "@#$! NO".

The only place I've heard even a hint of leaning yes is YUL and ex-military. But that's expected. YUL is an echo chamber of fear and scare tactics by their LEC Chair, and ex-mil often feel a lot more trusting of their "leaders" than those who come from civilian. Not everyone of course, ain't painting everyone the same here but when you live with chain of command for 25 years it becomes ingrained in you.

What I see on slack is the same 20 guys over and over. You would not have a good view on who think what because Slack is a "no" platform so all the people who think they will vote yes will not tell that on slack. Also, Between what people say and what people do, their is a big difference.
I ve also talked to some guy on the flat pay in the last few days, and my result was different than yours. but don t worry, it will be a no because everybody is looking at their own situation and watching, what do I lose / What do I gain. Basically the 5 - 12 years will vote no because there is no risk/advantage to vote no. In fact they will see more hours for pratically the same wages. So it is totally understandable.
The wb will vote no for the same reason.
The flatpayer will vote yes and no in some extent. You cannot really say no to, in some cases, 50% increase when you struggle financially. Let's be clear The gain is for the flatpay/ since a lots of guy are out of the flatpay, they don t care

So the no will win and I don t expect the company will come back with a better offer...I hope I am wrong but there is absolutly no certainty on that.

[RRJetPilot]

Slack has 1000 members. And it's been basically 100% no on there.

Over what, 800 NO votes on the forum? Everyone in my pit class is voting no. Every single one of my friends and acquaintances I've talked to in the last few days who are year 1-3 and a number at like 5-7 YOS are all voting no and not just "yeah I'll vote no"... no it's "@#$! NO".

The only place I've heard even a hint of leaning yes is YUL and ex-military. But that's expected. YUL is an echo chamber of fear and scare tactics by their LEC Chair, and ex-mil often feel a lot more trusting of their "leaders" than those who come from civilian. Not everyone of course, ain't painting everyone the same here but when you live with chain of command for 25 years it becomes ingrained in you.

What I see on slack is the same 20 guys over and over. You would not have a good view on who think what because Slack is a "no" platform so all the people who think they will vote yes will not tell that on slack. Also, Between what people say and what people do, their is a big difference.
I ve also talked to some guy on the flat pay in the last few days, and my result was different than yours. but don t worry, it will be a no because everybody is looking at their own situation and watching, what do I lose / What do I gain. Basically the 5 - 12 years will vote no because there is no risk/advantage to vote no. In fact they will see more hours for pratically the same wages. So it is totally understandable.
The wb will vote no for the same reason.
The flatpayer will vote yes and no in some extent. You cannot really say no to, in some cases, 50% increase when you struggle financially. Let's be clear The gain is for the flatpay/ since a lots of guy are out of the flatpay, they don t care

So the no will win and I don t expect the company will come back with a better offer...I hope I am wrong but there is absolutly no certainty on that.

I think you are mistaken. I’ve flown with SEVERAL flat pay pilots. Some based in YUL. They were ALL a hard no. Not everyone is so short sighted as you. Or selfish.

[lenaumade]

Selfish....The deal is clearly to get rid of the flatpay for new hire and ease the transition to the jazz guy but in exchange other pilot will have to have a 85 dbm instead of 80. You do not want to do it because you don t have anything to gain out of it. You would not make this permanent gain for new hire because your conditions will not improve....isn't that Selfish ?

[RockSalty]

Why make changes that have a fairly negative impact on your career from year 4 to retirement just to improve the first four years. The “transition to the jazz guy” should be of no concern to AC pilots in the first place.

Short sighted.

[RRJetPilot]

Not only your own career. Every Canadian pilots career in Canada. Disgusting.

[altiplano]

Bottom line in this deal is a net negative for AC pilots and the larger piloting profession in Canada.

The only gains are isolated and short term, the losses are forever.

Easy No.

[lenaumade]

Bottom line in this deal is a net negative for AC pilots and the larger piloting profession in Canada.

The only gains are isolated and short term, the losses are forever.

Easy No.

You judge me, ok your turn.

The gain are for the new hire. Plain and simple. The result of the poll is clear. Getting rid off the flat pay. Of course it will come with some concessions.
The vote will be a NO anyway because it is all about what YOU can gain, so don t talk to me about pilot unity. It is complete bullsh...t so you re no better than the guys who voted for the flatpay. Always ready to sacrifice the new hires for your own wellness and conditions. their will be always a good reason to improve your conditions and degrade the conditions of the other guys.
you can argument whatever. this is what s happenning.
And the guy on Flatpay who will vote No because of lack of character just to follow the crowds. It will not benefit you. you are just saying no to a 50% increase and getting on the pay roll after getting laid off. The guys who are telling you to say NO stayd at home doing nothing and getting a wages. so do not take any bullshit from those guys. It is a democracy and you re voting whatever you want.

Don t panick guys, it will be a NO. The MOA may come back or may not. I hope it will and I really hope I am wrong. I just think it s not gonna happen. If it is, I will be more than happy to say I am wrong.
So next year, We will go to negociations...WITh The SAME TEAM of negociation/kind of...We re gonna have a new contract, it will be kind of like this one. Better conditions for the line pilot with seniority, concessions on the new hire. And once again you will vote yes because you don t give a damn about that. And You will bring Canadian Aviation to a new lower.
Now, If there is a crisis....why I am saying that? I am nor argumenting here and I know commercial is doing a kind of estimation but...:
We are in recession (2 negative quarter is a recession) Mortgage rate are exploding. So some families will struggle with that and will not travel.
Stock market hit the lowest since 1930 and it is still going down. It is honestly just a fact.
I m not even talking about the war in Ukraine who may affect us or not.

If we come in a difficult economic situation, You will have to do some choices with the contract. And once again, you will justify to @#$! the new hire for your conditions.

Voting No to not getting rid of the flat pay is sending a strong message to the aviation in canada. Because The flat pay will stay. So you are not elevating canadian aviation in letting the flat pay here.

You vote NO = flat pay stay = we are still the biggest joke in the world with the lowest paid airline pilot.

Management did a good job, dividing the group to KEEP the flat pay.

And you will all vote NO in "solidarity" Give me a break, you just think about your own ass

[flatpay]

For what it's worth i'm a year 1 flat pay guy who got laid off for 2 years, and someone who stands to gain the most from this.

I flip-flopped a bit between yes and no, but in the end, it doesn't feel like I'm gaining much in the long run.

I voted no.

[lenamade]

To sum up from my drivel above:

VOTE HELLS NO to this pile of garbage

Even a 22 yrs Jazz kid can see right through this garbage

[lenaumade]

To sum up from my drivel above:

VOTE HELLS NO to this pile of garbage

Even a 22 yrs Jazz kid can see right through this garbage

I m 21 at AC...so that must be it

[TheAlcalde]

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... 22+MOA.pdf

Bit of light reading on the subject from P4C