Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

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Montroyal
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Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

Post by Montroyal »

    This vote is a complete and utter epic fail from everyone involved.

    Shows how disconnected the company & our own association is

    Totally disrespectful that they thought this deal was appropriate with inflation at 7%

    Our Chair talked about the morality of flat pay

    Maybe he shouldn't have voted yes to it in 2014 and be a lap dog to company problems and extracting permanent concessions from the group he is supposed to be representing
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    negative_g
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by negative_g »

    Anyone that says "we're not in open negotiations, there was no way we were getting big raises across the board" doesn't understand how leverage works. When the company comes to you with a big problem (and this is a big problem) you use that to extract lopsided gains in your favour. At minimum we should see flat pay reduced to one year of probationary pay (80-90k) and then formula pay, followed with a cost of living adjustment for the last three years across the board. And forget adding more allowable hours to the WB operation per pilot, that's just going to mean more days worked for our WB pilots. And less open time, and essentially less positions.
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    Dias
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by Dias »

    negative_g wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:19 pm Anyone that says "we're not in open negotiations, there was no way we were getting big raises across the board" doesn't understand how leverage works. When the company comes to you with a big problem (and this is a big problem) you use that to extract lopsided gains in your favour. At minimum we should see flat pay reduced to one year of probationary pay (80-90k) and then formula pay, followed with a cost of living adjustment for the last three years across the board. And forget adding more allowable hours to the WB operation per pilot, that's just going to mean more days worked for our WB pilots. And less open time, and essentially less positions.
    No to 1 year flat pay even. The company wants new hires that can go straight to WB FO from places like Cathay. They need to pay them WB FO salaries from day 1.
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    negative_g
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by negative_g »

    **** wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:23 pm
    negative_g wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:19 pm Anyone that says "we're not in open negotiations, there was no way we were getting big raises across the board" doesn't understand how leverage works. When the company comes to you with a big problem (and this is a big problem) you use that to extract lopsided gains in your favour. At minimum we should see flat pay reduced to one year of probationary pay (80-90k) and then formula pay, followed with a cost of living adjustment for the last three years across the board. And forget adding more allowable hours to the WB operation per pilot, that's just going to mean more days worked for our WB pilots. And less open time, and essentially less positions.
    No to 1 year flat pay even. The company wants new hires that can go straight to WB FO from places like Cathay. They need to pay them WB FO salaries from day 1.
    Well to be fair if formula started on year 2, there wouldn't be new hire WB FOs. But yes I agree with you in principle. If anything a probationary pay, which starts the day you get hired (not your line check) and lasts 6 months in agreement with federal regulations. It might even be 3 months now, not sure I'll have to go look it up. But our current probation is a joke, one year after you line check makes it closer to 15-16 months of probation.
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    pitottubey
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by pitottubey »

    Can someone please explain the context of this?
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    Rooster69
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by Rooster69 »

    negative_g wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:19 pm Anyone that says "we're not in open negotiations, there was no way we were getting big raises across the board" doesn't understand how leverage works. When the company comes to you with a big problem (and this is a big problem) you use that to extract lopsided gains in your favour. At minimum we should see flat pay reduced to one year of probationary pay (80-90k) and then formula pay, followed with a cost of living adjustment for the last three years across the board. And forget adding more allowable hours to the WB operation per pilot, that's just going to mean more days worked for our WB pilots. And less open time, and essentially less positions.

    Agreed!

    I don’t understand the underwhelming gains that were just negotiated. The company can’t honour the 60% flow through. The company needs to wet lease cargo aircraft. Cargo wet leasing is covered in contract. Company is going to have to pay no matter what. The company needs more pilots. A lot more pilots. Yes, the company is getting resumes, but there are no shows for ground schools and higher experienced pilots with families can’t afford 4 years of shit pay. And it is shit pay. The company needs lets from the association in order to be able to train enough pilots for the summer of 23 scheduled.

    It feels like a person who went to a car dealership, negotiated in some car mats and oil changes. Stuff the dealership was going to through in anyway.
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    PostmasterGeneral
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by PostmasterGeneral »

    pitottubey wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:56 am Can someone please explain the context of this?
    If you know, you know. If you don't, it doesn't affect you anyways.
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    negative_g
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilo9 group to date

    Post by negative_g »

    Look at the scope in the black lined agreement.

    Sneaking something in there that's HUGE. Domestic codeshare with zero restrictions. This is a huge mess.
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    a2btrail
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by a2btrail »

    Please. Just say no. Please see the safety briefing below:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-0OeOFuNXs
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    Ratherbe
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by Ratherbe »

    Sorry P4C it's an obvious yes vote. Waiting for negots 2023 or 2024 to get some movement in the right direction is very risky. Secure the gains now.
    You guys are losing credibility. You haven't achieved anything but divide the membership and undermine the new negotiating committee.
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    negative_g
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by negative_g »

    Keep telling yourself that. This is the most unified we've been in years. Look at Andres election result.

    You're blind or just nieve if you don't see it.
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    flying4dollars
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by flying4dollars »

    Ratherbe wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:17 pm Sorry P4C it's an obvious yes vote. Waiting for negots 2023 or 2024 to get some movement in the right direction is very risky. Secure the gains now.
    You guys are losing credibility. You haven't achieved anything but divide the membership and undermine the new negotiating committee.
    I happen to think this is actually bringing most of the group together.
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    Dry Guy
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by Dry Guy »

    Can they see the votes come in real time? Anyways, voted No as soon as it opened.
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    bcflyer
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by bcflyer »

    It’s run by an independent 3rd party. I don’t think they can see the results in real time.
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    Ratherbe
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by Ratherbe »

    P4C has been very clear that they want to leave ACPA and join ALPA. That is what is motivating them and driving their decisions.
    The AC pilots on the other hand have been very clear that they want pay raises not the distraction of a union drive.
    Obviously this MOA would be bad news for P4C as it shows that ACPA with a new Chair and Negots Team can deliver results despite the presence of a war and a recession.
    Do you guys really think that we will be in a stronger position next year?
    Capture the gains now.
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    bcflyer
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by bcflyer »

    Ratherbe wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:31 pm P4C has been very clear that they want to leave ACPA and join ALPA. That is what is motivating them and driving their decisions.
    The AC pilots on the other hand have been very clear that they want pay raises not the distraction of a union drive.
    Obviously this MOA would be bad news for P4C as it shows that ACPA with a new Chair and Negots Team can deliver results despite the presence of a war and a recession.
    Do you guys really think that we will be in a stronger position next year?
    Capture the gains now.
    Lmao. Capture the gains now? I’m all for that. Unfortunately the negots committee weren’t able to do that with this MOA.
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    schnitzel2k3
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by schnitzel2k3 »

    Ratherbe wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:31 pm P4C has been very clear that they want to leave ACPA and join ALPA. That is what is motivating them and driving their decisions.
    The AC pilots on the other hand have been very clear that they want pay raises not the distraction of a union drive.
    Obviously this MOA would be bad news for P4C as it shows that ACPA with a new Chair and Negots Team can deliver results despite the presence of a war and a recession.
    Do you guys really think that we will be in a stronger position next year?
    Capture the gains now.
    Everybody and their grandmother has been able to put up gains during a war and a recession to the tune of 100%+ in most cases.

    Hopefully you guys can too.
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    teacher
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by teacher »

    Ratherbe wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:31 pm P4C has been very clear that they want to leave ACPA and join ALPA. That is what is motivating them and driving their decisions.
    The AC pilots on the other hand have been very clear that they want pay raises not the distraction of a union drive.
    Obviously this MOA would be bad news for P4C as it shows that ACPA with a new Chair and Negots Team can deliver results despite the presence of a war and a recession.
    Do you guys really think that we will be in a stronger position next year?
    Capture the gains now.
    You mean capture the concessions now.
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    Cavalier44
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by Cavalier44 »

    Ratherbe wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:31 pm P4C has been very clear that they want to leave ACPA and join ALPA. That is what is motivating them and driving their decisions.
    The AC pilots on the other hand have been very clear that they want pay raises not the distraction of a union drive.
    Have they? On the contrary, I think there is widespread support for a change in representation. In fact, I'd venture to say that many among us believe it's long overdue. A pay raise and a change of representation are not mutually exclusive - we have the capacity to achieve both.

    Ratherbe wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:31 pm Obviously this MOA would be bad news for P4C as it shows that ACPA with a new Chair and Negots Team can deliver results despite the presence of a war and a recession.
    Comments about the war in Ukraine and potential recession are a red herring. But speaking about delivering results, what do you think about delivering an increase in DBM to 85 hours for widebody aircraft, with no cap on days worked, as a permanent concession in the contract? The company has difficulties filling PIT courses now, just wait til we tell all those new-hire 787 and 777 FOs that they're going to be doing seven Atlantic crossings a month for a whopping $62k/year! Where do I sign up?

    Ratherbe wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:31 pm Do you guys really think that we will be in a stronger position next year?
    Capture the gains now.
    Next year is irrelevant. The company needs this MOA in order to staff the operation to meet targets for Summer 2023. We don't have to make concessions now in a rush to make a hasty deal that we will regret later. There is no harm to the pilot group in waiting to see if there's a better offer, which I strongly suspect there will be. If not, we press on to the contract reopener in 2023. With the present vacancies, I'm willing to bet with a high degree of confidence that staffing the airline is still going to be the number one issue to be resolved next year.

    Also - people saying "capture the gains now, deal with the consequences later" lost all credibility after the 10% pay cut for the 767 freighter operation. This attitude of constantly needing the help the company out is what got us into this mess in the first place.
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    Freshredmeat
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    Re: Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

    Post by Freshredmeat »

    Every single person I know in my flat pay seniority band are hard NOs

    Judging by what I see on the line and my group chats, this pilot group has never been so unified

    Well done everyone

    The proof will be with the results and we finally toss some more dead weight.

    Not sure what the deal is with the anti p4c rhetoric. This isn't their mess. This is on the Chair, the old guard and an acpa staff that doesn't even know what a pilot looks like
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