Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

[DanWEC]

I'm late to the party and just taking a skim of all this now, and I can't wrap my head around this whole proposal.
Correct me if I'm wrong:

Jazz says they have to pause flow because of a growing shortage of qualified pilots.
AC realizes they can't attract the OTS they need because of the flat pay scenario.
AC decides to rectify their own company recruitment problem by upping the initial pay, but decide that they can take the money they'll expend from the pilot group in terms of concessions?

What?? This sounds like a company problem, not a pilot problem, no?

[rudder]

I'm late to the party and just taking a skim of all this now, and I can't wrap my head around this whole proposal.
Correct me if I'm wrong:

Jazz says they have to pause flow because of a growing shortage of qualified pilots.
AC realizes they can't attract the OTS they need because of the flat pay scenario.
AC decides to rectify their own company recruitment problem by upping the initial pay, but decide that they can take the money they'll expend from the pilot group in terms of concessions?

What?? This sounds like a company problem, not a pilot problem, no?

You broke the code……

[altiplano]

I'm late to the party and just taking a skim of all this now, and I can't wrap my head around this whole proposal.
Correct me if I'm wrong:

Jazz says they have to pause flow because of a growing shortage of qualified pilots.
AC realizes they can't attract the OTS they need because of the flat pay scenario.
AC decides to rectify their own company recruitment problem by upping the initial pay, but decide that they can take the money they'll expend from the pilot group in terms of concessions?

What?? This sounds like a company problem, not a pilot problem, no?

Sadly some don't seem to see it that way, particularly the "establishment" at ACPA, we'll see tomorrow how many of the rest managed to put it together.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Once the vote ends tomorrow, any idea how long for the results to come out?

[jpilot77]

Once the vote ends tomorrow, any idea how long for the results to come out?

Should be out about an hour after it closes.

[Aspiredtofly]

Real question is what would happen if the vote turned out to be no by tommorow?

[702pipeliner]

Real question is what would happen if the vote turned out to be no by tommorow?

In my opinion if it's a no. It's still a win-win. If it's a no, it should give more bargaining power to the union.

Giving seniority to jazz guys is a bandaid fix.

.

[Fanblade]

Real question is what would happen if the vote turned out to be no by tommorow?

Then AC needs to find another solution to meet its commitments regarding flow from Jazz and hiring/training at AC.

Those problems and commitments don’t change after a no vote.

An across the board inflation hike and make all the concessions temporary. It would pass.

It’s up to AC if they truly want to run their sked next summer. They are getting very close to having a disgruntled pilot group going into next summer anyway.

They can also cut next summers schedule. Totally up to them.

Tough to explain to the BOD and shareholders that we are cutting our schedule next summer to avoid paying pilots more than now, but still far less than international competition.

[flyingcanuck]

Real question is what would happen if the vote turned out to be no by tommorow?

im sure they already have a backup plan

[Fanblade]

This no vote, should it happen, has nothing to do with anti Jazz or anti flow from Jazz.

AC has a commitment to Jazz for flow and will have to figure it out.

AC needs to negotiate with Jazz regarding this shortage as well.

ACPA should not have deleverage Jazz in this MOA with a scope change.

This is a very anti unity within the pilot group deal. It needs to be thrown into the lav. The ACPA MEC changes to pro ALPA come January. The company and the old ACPA supporters are just trying to push through crap while they can.

[hithere]

It's not just the potential scope ammendments that will de-leverage Jazz. The whole 'reserved mainline seniority while you continue to work at Jazz for 15 months' is even more de-leveraging to Jazz. If this vote fails and the company decides to come back with another offer, I'd love to believe that ACPA would insist on changes to the Jazz piece( obviously after and in addition to better mainline compensation and temporary rather than permanent mainline CBA changes) to help their brothers and sisters at Jazz out. But seeing how the Jazz MEC was not consulted on the original incarnation of this offer, I wont hold my breath

[Transition9er2]

Voter turnout - 93.3%
NO - 79.6%
Yes - 20.4%
Abstentions - 0.7%

Big message sent from the pilot group. MOA voted down in spectacular fashion.

[lownslow]

Voter turnout - 93.3%

Has that ever happened before?

[Aspiredtofly]

Voter turnout - 93.3%
NO - 79.6%
Yes - 20.4%
Abstentions - 0.7%

Big message sent from the pilot group. MOA voted down in spectacular fashion.

Well played folks!
Now go and find the 20.4% fools now

[Aspiredtofly]

It's pilots for a change this time. We all deserve better. I'm glad the vote turned out to be ''NO''

[Fanblade]

Voter turnout - 93.3%

Has that ever happened before?

25 years ago. Strike vote 97% turnout. 97% vote to strike.

But that was pre bankruptcy ACPA. An ACPA that no longer exist.

This vote is very different in that it is in opposition to the union rather than in support of it.

The demographics are changing at AC with all the hiring. It started showing last fall in elections. It has increased with every vote and recall since. Actually if you were looking you could see changes happening two years ago in votes. They were losses but close ones.

Last fall looked like 60% of those voting were fed up. In the spring 68% fed up and showed it in a recall. Summer election saw 70% fed up. Now 80%.

[Fanblade]

Unity in Action.pdf

(583.1 KiB) Downloaded 208 times

[canadian_aviator_4]

This no vote, should it happen, has nothing to do with anti Jazz or anti flow from Jazz.

AC has a commitment to Jazz for flow and will have to figure it out.

AC needs to negotiate with Jazz regarding this shortage as well.

ACPA should not have deleverage Jazz in this MOA with a scope change.

This is a very anti unity within the pilot group deal. It needs to be thrown into the lav. The ACPA MEC changes to pro ALPA come January. The company and the old ACPA supporters are just trying to push through crap while they can.

Congratulations to AC for strong unity in the vote. Regarding jazz pilots, resolving the AC hiring issue will be drawn out over many months. It’s not in jazz management’s favour to have the AC hiring agreement honoured and they will try to get away with it not being met for as long as possible. Grievances take time. Lots and lots of time.

Therefore even with a fix, jazz pilots are losing many seniority spots to off the street pilots.

[Ash Ketchum]

This no vote, should it happen, has nothing to do with anti Jazz or anti flow from Jazz.

AC has a commitment to Jazz for flow and will have to figure it out.

AC needs to negotiate with Jazz regarding this shortage as well.

ACPA should not have deleverage Jazz in this MOA with a scope change.

This is a very anti unity within the pilot group deal. It needs to be thrown into the lav. The ACPA MEC changes to pro ALPA come January. The company and the old ACPA supporters are just trying to push through crap while they can.

Congratulations to AC for strong unity in the vote. Regarding jazz pilots, resolving the AC hiring issue will be drawn out over many months. It’s not in jazz management’s favour to have the AC hiring agreement honoured and they will try to get away with it not being met for as long as possible. Grievances take time. Lots and lots of time.

Therefore even with a fix, jazz pilots are losing many seniority spots to off the street pilots.

I guess it may not be a bad time to leave Jazz now and go to a place like Flair/WJ for quicker flow to AC as an OTS candidate.

[flyingcanuck]

This no vote, should it happen, has nothing to do with anti Jazz or anti flow from Jazz.

AC has a commitment to Jazz for flow and will have to figure it out.

AC needs to negotiate with Jazz regarding this shortage as well.

ACPA should not have deleverage Jazz in this MOA with a scope change.

This is a very anti unity within the pilot group deal. It needs to be thrown into the lav. The ACPA MEC changes to pro ALPA come January. The company and the old ACPA supporters are just trying to push through crap while they can.

Congratulations to AC for strong unity in the vote. Regarding jazz pilots, resolving the AC hiring issue will be drawn out over many months. It’s not in jazz management’s favour to have the AC hiring agreement honoured and they will try to get away with it not being met for as long as possible. Grievances take time. Lots and lots of time.

Therefore even with a fix, jazz pilots are losing many seniority spots to off the street pilots.

I guess it may not be a bad time to leave Jazz now and go to a place like Flair/WJ for quicker flow to AC as an OTS candidate.

thinking about it...