Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

[GIVCE!]

Its crazy that AC is attempting to piss all over our agreement without including ALPA in the discussions. Seems to me it would take the wind out of our sails with regards to future pay uplifts as Jazz would retain its captains in que at AC until they are ready to be released which takes the pressure off of Jazz to hire short term.

Unity. I hope our brothers and sisters over at ACPA realize their vote will affect the entire industry of how we recover from these unprecedented times of the last few years. A lot is riding on it, good luck.
G

[rudder]

Memorandum of Agreement (MOA)
Between
Air Canada
(“the Company”) And the
Air Canada Pilots Association
(“ACPA” or the “Association”)
Special Jazz Pilot Leave of Absence
WHEREAS Air Canada advised the Association that under the Capacity Purchase Agreement (the “CPA”) between the Company and Jazz Aviation LP (“Jazz”), Air Canada must offer employment to pilots working for Jazz (the “Jazz Pilots”) subject to certain criteria;
AND WHEREAS Air Canada advised the Association proceeding with such hiring at this time may limit Jazz’ ability to operate fully the commercial schedule as is required by the CPA;
AND WHEREAS the Parties have agreed to facilitate the flow of Jazz Pilots to Air Canada in a manner which does not disrupt Jazz’ operations;
NOW THEREFORE, the Company and the Association agree as follows:
1. The preamble forms an integral part of this MOA.
2. Jazz Pilots hired by Air Canada pursuant to the CPA may immediately be placed on a special leave of absence in accordance with the terms and conditions of this MOA for a period of up to 15 months from their date of employment (the “Jazz LOA”).
3. Air Canada will assign the Jazz Pilot a date of employment. The Jazz pilot will be assigned their seniority number in accordance with A4 of the Collective Agreement based on this date of employment.
4. Jazz Pilots hired by Air Canada under this MOA, will accrue company service as a pilot for the purposes of pay progression, vacation and general holiday entitlement as of their date of employment in accordance with paragraph 2 above.
5. The Jazz Pilot’s pay progression date will be determined in accordance with A12.01.01 of the Collective Agreement for each day the pilot is on this Jazz LOA.
6. For the duration of their Jazz LOA, as a condition of employment with Air Canada and subject to human rights obligations, each Jazz Pilot must continue to be employed by and operate for Jazz until they are released by Jazz on a date to be determined by Air Canada in consultation with Jazz, but such release shall not occur more than 15 months from their date of employment
7. Except for the entitlements listed above, the Jazz Pilots will have no other entitlements (including, but not limited to, any benefits and/or travel privileges) from Air Canada for the period during which they are on the Jazz LOA.
8. Upon returning from this Jazz LOA, the Jazz Pilot will be entitled to choose, in seniority order, any position offered on the PIT course they are assigned.
9. All Jazz LOAs under this MOA will end no later than September 30th, 2025.
10. It is agreed and understood that this Memorandum is made without prejudice and precedent to any other existing or future matter between the Association and the Company.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties hereto have signed this Memorandum of Agreement this 11th day of October 2022

[Sharklasers]

Its crazy that AC is attempting to piss all over our agreement without including ALPA in the discussions. Seems to me it would take the wind out of our sails with regards to future pay uplifts as Jazz would retain its captains in que at AC until they are ready to be released which takes the pressure off of Jazz to hire short term.

Unity. I hope our brothers and sisters over at ACPA realize their vote will affect the entire industry of how we recover from these unprecedented times of the last few years. A lot is riding on it, good luck.
G

I voted no but I have a couple questions.

I understand why the AC pilots are angry, and I get why the Jazz lifers are angry. But if I were someone hired at Jazz post 2015 with the intention of going to AC I would be hoping against all odds that this passes as every 14 days your losing 40 numbers to encore pilots and 1900 drivers.
The pre 2015 Jazz pilots lit a match in that place before they left and burned the contract to the ground.

Would it be fair to say that at least 90% of the Jazz lifers were hired pre-2015? Those same pilots who overwhelmingly voted to destroy the wawcon? Now those pilots want to leverage the junior pilots career progression into further gains for themselves? (Should also be noted that all those pre 2015 pilots are still on the A scale)

[hithere]

The 2015 contract was necessary to ensure the long term viability of the CPA as we had GGN and SKY breathing down our necks with lower labour costs. With that 2015 contract we were able to entice a lot of tenured, DB pension Jazz guys to leave for AC thereby making Jazz a more competitive to compete with GGN and Sky for the CPA work. We have spent the majority of our bargaining capital since that time trying to rectify some of the things from the 2015 contract that we undesirable. finally with the GGN and SKY integration we were able to get rid of the supposed B scale and guarantee a minimum flow rate but at the expense of signing a long term contract. ALPA used significant bargaining capital to get that guarantee. In effect since 2015 most of the bargaining capital the the Jazz MEC has used is to the benefit of junior members.
The only leverage we currently have to fix our low pay rates is the current pilot shortage. And now that leverage is being taken from us without any input from us. AC is (or will be by the end of 2022) in violation of the minimum Jazz to AC flow rate. They know it, and they want ACPA to help them. ACPA's job is not to solve AC and Jazz pilot recruitment problems. Market forces are there for that.

[negative_g]

Don't worry it's going to fail in spectacular fashion.

[hithere]

If it does fail and AC wants to try to sweeten the pot to get it ratified, I hope ACPA works with the JAzz MEC at that time

[Sharklasers]

The 2015 contract was necessary to ensure the long term viability of the CPA as we had GGN and SKY breathing down our necks with lower labour costs. With that 2015 contract we were able to entice a lot of tenured, DB pension Jazz guys to leave for AC thereby making Jazz a more competitive to compete with GGN and Sky for the CPA work. We have spent the majority of our bargaining capital since that time trying to rectify some of the things from the 2015 contract that we undesirable. finally with the GGN and SKY integration we were able to get rid of the supposed B scale and guarantee a minimum flow rate but at the expense of signing a long term contract. ALPA used significant bargaining capital to get that guarantee. In effect since 2015 most of the bargaining capital the the Jazz MEC has used is to the benefit of junior members.
The only leverage we currently have to fix our low pay rates is the current pilot shortage. And now that leverage is being taken from us without any input from us. AC is (or will be by the end of 2022) in violation of the minimum Jazz to AC flow rate. They know it, and they want ACPA to help them. ACPA's job is not to solve AC and Jazz pilot recruitment problems. Market forces are there for that.

It doesn’t surprise me that that is the narrative the Jazz old guard is pushing over there.

The only people left were the ones unfortunately PFO’d, the very close to retirement or the ones too short sighted to see a good thing in front of them.
In the last 7 years they’ve had to watch their coworkers go nearly direct left seat at AC making nearly double in some cases flying heavy metal all around the world while they are stuck at Jazz beating a path back and forth to YQR.
The environment in 2015 wasn’t nearly as dire as you make it out to be, GGN was already shitting the bed and the growth of Sky had already effectively stopped. 700++ of us, over 50% of the list voted yes for an opportunity to leave with full pay to the big leagues. The remaining 30% of yes votes were only concerned with keeping their DBs and A scale and couldn’t care less about the ones coming behind or we would have worked out some language for PML 2.0 when we signed it.


That same cadre of left behinds are the ones now trying to leverage the career progression of the post 2015 hires for more big gains for themselves.

My stomach is in knots for the Post 2015 Jazz hires who only went there for a path to the show who’s future is now in limbo as precious seniority slips away at an alarming rate. If we drag this out for 6 more months that’s 450 numbers lost, that could mean an entirely different career for pilots hired at Jazz with a promise of progression.

[hithere]

The “big leagues”? holy f!ck dude you are something else.

[Loon-A-Tic]

AC need pilots, you don't need "flow" to get there if that's your intended career path, just don't leave a trail of destruction in your wake.

[Sharklasers]

AC need pilots, you don't need "flow" to get there if that's your intended career path, just don't leave a trail of destruction in your wake.

Don’t let the old guard sell you that line. They are the original masters of leaving a wake of destruction.

Be careful what you are willing to trade the flow for.

If the flow ends the amount of Jazz pilots hired by AC will slow to a trickle if even that. The company won’t continue to eat their own feed.
They won’t have to increase compensation that much to staff Jazz.
There will be enough Jazz lifers and pilots that stick around in the left seat to eventually stem the bleeding and Jazz will continue to draw on their 250 hour pathways programs to feed the right seat where the turnover will be high.

[hithere]

WestJet and Encore have ended their flow(present encore pilots grandfathered). Both mainline and Encore MECs are working together to leverage the pilot shortage together and force the company to figure out staffing issues. Here at tge “red team” of the 4 parties affected by the MOA, the only one not consulted was the Jazz MEC(or maybe they were consulted but their input was ignored).
There is a reason AC is the lowest paid legacy carrier in North America. This MOA perpetuates that.

[hithere]

The only way to fix this mess would be to staple the Jazz seniority list onto the bottom on the AC list and have fences to protect each party. Model it after the American Airlines system. American is with their own in house union(APA) and Envoy is with Alpa, so we wouldn’t even have to wait to see if Acpa becomes ALPA. Think outside the Canadian model to discover what massive gains can be made if unions work together.

[Loon-A-Tic]

The only way to fix this mess would be to staple the Jazz seniority list onto the bottom on the AC list and have fences to protect each party. Model it after the American Airlines system. American is with their own in house union(APA) and Envoy is with Alpa, so we wouldn’t even have to wait to see if Acpa becomes ALPA. Think outside the Canadian model to discover what massive gains can be made if unions work together.

The only way to mitigate the mess if it does go "in effect" would be to staple the returning Jazz LOA pilots to the bottom of the Jazz seniority list. No fences required as they have no intentions of staying.

[hithere]

I’m talking about fixing the whole AC/Jazz whipsaw mess now before this ridiculous LOA thing starts

[Loon-A-Tic]

I’m talking about fixing the whole AC/Jazz whipsaw mess now before this ridiculous LOA thing starts

So how does that play out for those who just want to remain at Jazz, earn a reasonable income and not chase the "big iron" ?

[hithere]

Fences; they exist in every seniority integration.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Fences; they exist in every seniority integration.

Doesn't that run the risk of creating a "them & us" culture within the same four walls.

[hithere]

Not at all, it can definitely be done to the benefit of all. It’s complicated and my head is starting to hurt, and if this MOA is ratified, all this conversation is moot. I guess we will see in a week or so

[Loon-A-Tic]

Not at all, it can definitely be done to the benefit of all. It’s complicated and my head is starting to hurt, and if this MOA is ratified, all this conversation is moot. I guess we will see in a week or so

Likewise, it would take some calm, cool heads to make that all work and I'm not "feeling" that from the chatter.

I see all of this going present position direct to some form of high-level grievance. How can a non-representative union and two management groups "inflict" their collective will on to group who's constituted union that wasn't even "at the table" for the discussions. Those Jazz pilots who feel adversely effected by this had better be mounting some form of "class action" grievance pronto.

[Straight2.Secondary]

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