Rejected Take-Off

Brantford Beech Boy · Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:43 am

How does your company handle a reject?

Can either pilot call for the reject? or only Captain?

Is the captain the only one to perform the reject? (eg. "Reject, I have control"

What calls are made? "Reject", "Abort", "Stop"

Tuning up our SOP and looking for an 'industry standard' or as close as I can get.

Cheers
BBB

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:50 am

I've worked for a couple of companies that make it a captain only thing. I dont agree with this reasoning. Heres why. A reject is a very time senseitive thing....I brief the f/o's that if you need to reject...go ahead. But you'd better have a good reason! I'd far rather reject for something we could have lived with, than not reject in time because the "I have control" crap didn't happen fast enough!! If YOU have the throttles in your hot little hands...you ARE a qualified, PPC'd pilot on type...then YOU call it!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:54 am

Wouldn't there be a go / no go point on the runway?

And if that is the case wouldn't the pilot flying be the one to reject?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:57 am

He's probably thinking V1, rather than a point on the runway? But I go with the PF.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:05 am

Yeh, Doc of course that is part of what I mean.

But what puzzels me is seeing so many questions being asked about SOP's for such situations.

Does this mean that each company can design SOP's that fit their view of how to fly an airplane, so when a pilot goes to another company on the same equipment there can be confusion as to how to fly the thing?

Remember I am not up to speed on how these things are done as I'm not that familiar with how Canadians do things anymore....

...but I am interested in anything new.

Cat

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:11 am

That's correct, Cat. A company can come up with it's own SOP's. They dont have to be even remotely like anybody elses' I've seen SOP's requireing a headset to be worn during engine start, so you can hear the F/A...on a freighter! The reject SOP's and even the go-around SOP's vary from company to company. I'm working with a couple of really stupid ones as we speak!

Canus Chinookus · Post by **Canus Chinookus** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:48 am

at the airline level, it's the Captain's decision, the captain's call. That's not saying the FO's just along for the ride either. I was involved in a high speed reject a few years back(as an FO) and we both hollered reject at the same time, but the Captain performed it. Fused the brakes, melted 2 fuse plugs, but no other damage, and no injuries whatsoever.

For those who argue that it's too time critical for the Captain to make the decision and either pilot should be able to call it? I don't think so, Tim. There's only one instance where the FO calls and initiates the reject, and that's for an incapacitated captain.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:57 am

" and that's for an incapacitated captain. "

This of course can be subjective and open to interpertation from person to person, I have observed a few that flew like they were incapacited all the time.

So basically flying is a variable risk arena where you are never quite sure of what is right and what is wrong.

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:03 pm

Most corporate jet operators have SOP's loosley based on those supplied and recommended by the training facilities such as Flightsafety or CAE Simuflite.

It is assumed that both pilots are trained to proficiency and have adequate systems knowledge and have briefed for the potential problems so that either can make the call.

Ultimately, the PIC is responsible so he/she is the final authority.

As for the call itself, there is no correct as long as it leaves no doubt. Some use "Abort", other more politically correct operators use "reject" while euro operators use "Stop,Stop,Stop".

Make sure your SOP's are designed with reason and applicability not just to sound like an airline.

flynbutcher · Post by **flynbutcher** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:43 pm

Canus Chinookus wrote:at the airline level, it's the Captain's decision, the captain's call. That's not saying the FO's just along for the ride either. I was involved in a high speed reject a few years back(as an FO) and we both hollered reject at the same time, but the Captain performed it. Fused the brakes, melted 2 fuse plugs, but no other damage, and no injuries whatsoever.

For those who argue that it's too time critical for the Captain to make the decision and either pilot should be able to call it? I don't think so, Tim. There's only one instance where the FO calls and initiates the reject, and that's for an incapacitated captain.

Scenario.... Rolling down the runway, V1@ 140 kts. At 135kts the F/O (PNF) notices oil pressure falling rapidly, N1 falling and ENG VIB increasing rapidly. I think this is too time critical for the F/O NOT to call the reject. The F/O should have special training just like the Capts on when and what to reject for and anyone should be able to call it.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:50 pm

If the F/O is type qualified, what "special" training would you be refering to? Should the F/O be required to report to the captain his/her feelings of a need to reject a take-off? Perhaps appoint a Royal Commission, submit a "white paper" on the falling oil pressure, and await with baited breath the reaction of the "master" in the left seat....OR...should he/she just commence a reject? I think he should REJECT RIGHT PHUQUEN NOW!!!

flynbutcher · Post by **flynbutcher** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:00 pm

Just my point DOC, why the Fuc#in attitude pal.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:03 pm

Not aimed at you....but at the "captain only" mentality...sorry you toke it that way..

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:06 pm

cpl...the manufactuer would have to have their legal department write them...you donet want to go down that road.....it'd be a three hour check list.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:08 pm

" while euro operators use "Stop,Stop,Stop". "

They also use "stop, stop, stop" in the airshow business if we get to far outside our box....

...a "stop. stop. stop" call is the last thing we want to hear because it also means a suspension of our airshow display authority until we face a hearing.

A small excursion to low gets a "altitude, altitude, altitude" call and as long as we correct immediately there is no penalty....

I realize this is sort of off subject but I'm bored today.

Back to reject on takeoff, in any airplane I'm flying it is the pilot flying who makes that decision.

Cat

shankdown · Post by **shankdown** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:30 pm

My company operates a corporate jet... Lear 30 series in particular. The skipper and the FO switch legs for flying, but they're flown from their respective seats (right or left). For rejected takeoff's, we brief that below 100 knots, either pilot can abort the takeoff. Beyond that, and up to V1, its the pilot flying who will make the decision. (In reality, if the guy with his signature in the logbook is seeing errors taking place, naturally I'm sure he'd intervene. Anyways...) When there is a reject, it was decided some time ago that the call would be "ABORT/MAXIMUM BRAKING". The reason for throwing 'maximum braking' on there is to provide an extra cue to put all available pressure on the brakes... to stand on the bloody things and let the anti-skid do its thing.

Flyinbutcher said, "Scenario.... Rolling down the runway, V1@ 140 kts. At 135kts the F/O (PNF) notices oil pressure falling rapidly, N1 falling and ENG VIB increasing rapidly. I think this is too time critical for the F/O NOT to call the reject. The F/O should have special training just like the Capts on when and what to reject for and anyone should be able to call it."

I can't completely agree with that, because in reality its the pilot flying that will truly feel the power loss. And if he hasn't felt that by 135 knots, or even if at 135 he's beginning to realize that its occuring, it won't be until he's past V1 that he's reacting to it. Aircraft with 140 kt V1's are probably accelerating so fast, that by 135 knots, the PNF should have his eyes glued to the airspeed indicator, because in approximately .0135 seconds, he should be calling V1. So, if the PF hasn't REACTED to the power loss by V1, thanks for coming out; you're going flying. And if its producing power but losing oil pressure... who cares? Let the thing shake itself off the mounts, as long as it helps you get away from terrain a little quicker. Once at a safe altitude, shut 'er down. Anyways, that's beside the point. Sorry for ramblin'!!!

Shankdown

shankdown · Post by **shankdown** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:38 pm

...And one other thing. I don't think that loss of oil pressure on a jet is a hugely time sensitive thing. I have shut a jet engine down because it was losing oil pressure, but the loss occured over a couple of minutes, and there was no need to panic. After shutting it down, we even discussed starting it back up again for landing (because there still was pressure when we shut it down, but it was dropping consistently), but decided that the weather was decent enough that we'd just land on one. I actually heard about Canadi>n Airlines running (if I remember correctly) a DC-10 engine with no oil pressure for 2 hours to avoid the necessity to land in Russia. Though losing o/p is a big deal, it ain't as sinificant as an inadvertant thrust reverser deployment at V1! Obviously, my opinion may be disagreed with, and it would be an interesting discussion if it was. Sorry if that appears to be a hijacking of a thread. Back to RTO's!!!

planett · Post by **planett** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:57 pm

I like Cat's statement:

"So basically flying is a variable risk arena where you are never quite sure of what is right and what is wrong."

This is brilliant beacause I've seen SOP's for one type at two companies so different from one another it's scary. Also some were in compliance with the AFM, others were in direct conflict with it, while others used Limitations as a conveniently flexible guideline and recommendations as a hard and fast rule. Still others changed their minds as to who would apply power on take off halfway through my employment.

This is why armchair quarterbacking is so easy to do.

pika · Post by **pika** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:48 pm

Scenario.... Rolling down the runway, V1@ 140 kts. At 135kts the F/O (PNF) notices oil pressure falling rapidly, N1 falling and ENG VIB increasing rapidly. I think this is too time critical for the F/O NOT to call the reject. The F/O should have special training just like the Capts on when and what to reject for and anyone should be able to call it.

Only one person in a large jet can make the call and that is the Captain. His or her hand with be on the thrust levers and must initiate. There are specific Captain and First Officer duties during the event.

In regards to the above I believe that 75% of the a/c that ran off the end during a high speed reject had full power available on both engines. Seems silly to be sitting in the ditch with an airplane that would have flown.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:20 pm

Cat Driver wrote: So basically flying is a variable risk arena where you are never quite sure of what is right and what is wrong.

You've been flying for how long? and your only figuring that out now?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:29 pm

Dust Devil:

Even though todays world of flying has more SOP's and rules and goofy weird proceedures than one can keep track of I have sort of figured out what is safest and best for me....

....I'm not ashamed of getting this far unscahed even if I was doing it all wrong.

Ghost · Post by **Ghost** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:32 pm

Scenario.... Rolling down the runway, V1@ 140 kts. At 135kts the F/O (PNF) notices oil pressure falling rapidly, N1 falling and ENG VIB increasing rapidly. I think this is too time critical for the F/O NOT to call the reject. The F/O should have special training just like the Capts on when and what to reject for and anyone should be able to call it.

5kts prior to V1.. If it was any transport category aircraft, I would take it flying rather than chance a high speed reject on what could be a short, slippery runway. With only 5kts to play with, it should be only one persons call, and that would be the Captains.

IMO

DHQ · Post by **DHQ** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:34 pm

cpl_atc wrote:Regarding SOPs... I've never really understood why it is left up to each company to develop their own SOPs. Seems to me that the manufacturer who spent years designing and testing the type (and more recently bringing in psychologists to aid in cockpit design, interfaces, etc) would be best suited for saying: "Here's the hardware, and here's how it should be flown".

Different companies do different things with the same airplanes, so I think SOPs do need to be company specific.

wingtip · Post by **wingtip** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:39 pm

pika wrote: Only one person in a large jet can make the call and that is the Captain. His or her hand with be on the thrust levers and must initiate. There are specific Captain and First Officer duties during the event.

I will agree that the PIC is responsible but size of the aircraft has little to do with it. It is a function of flight ops philosophy relative to SOP's.

Some heavy aircraft operators I have flown with allow the 2-IC to make the call as well.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:44 pm

Both pilots trained with types, both can call reject. Better to be sitting on the ground having made a wrong call than airborne with a bad one.

Below 80 knots, Captain takes control because he has the tiller.

Not so tough.

The Europeans like Stop!