Negotiations

[truedude]

AC is not shrinking, they are expanding, especially with new aircraft showing up every month, and they’ve even sparked some A319’s back up from the desert. They’re re-deploying these aircraft on more profitable routes, and if they shrink out of Calgary to grow Vancouver, they no longer need Jazz feeding YYC from Saskatoon, etc.

I am sure someone though something similar when Westjet was flying around after AC bought Canadian. Not everyone wants to go through YVR to get to YYC or YEG. Or YQR YXE to YWG now require people to go through YVR. That is just dumb.

Call it what you want, but if mainline is deploying resources to cover these routes at the expense of frequency and convince for passengers, that will give competitors a place to make foot holds.

You can spin this anyway you want, but it isn't good for AC, or Jazz or anyone really. It is just plane stubborn, and if that is how someone is trying to spin it to the board, then we are all in trouble.

Used to have 7 flights a day to YLW from YVR. Now it is 5, and someday 4. More room for flair and others to move in.

Except for the giant, obvious flaw in your logic. AC is redeploying the resources elsewhere, obviously on routes that are far more profitable out east. Say what you want about AC, but they are great at going where the money is. They wouldn’t just abandon routes that there is money to be made on, if they couldn’t make more money elsewhere.

They are redeploying because they lack the crew to cover both. Not because they aren't making money doing it. They are essentially pulling back and protecting their core assets, abandoning other routes as a result. It is shrinking. Service is being cut across the parries, the interior, and frequency being reduced on top of that to all the above mentioned and more. Lets call it what it is, a tactical retreat. And with CR, Air Canada was great at going where the money is. Before that, their history at making money was dubious. I question their ability to do so moving forward.

All they have done is surrender routes to the competition, and allow and area for Flair and others to keep growing. That isn't good business, that is a failure at the top to keep themselves properly staffed.

People will not route themselves through YVR to get to YYC or YEG, or YWG. They will book on our competitors, which may make those up gauged aircraft running from YQR and YXE to YVR rather useless.

Nothing about what is happening is an indication of excellent leadership, but rather a complete abdication of it.

[kiaszceski]

It's time to call CR back!

[Rowdy]

The solution to this is easy.

Fix the pay. Provide some incentives.

[CaptDukeNukem]

The solution to this is easy.

Fix the pay. Provide some incentives.

100%

Who said money can’t buy happiness.

[Last Flight Out]

The future here is looking worse than ever. I hear the frustration in everyone I fly with our cross paths with at work. Our flying as stated in previous posts has already been significantly reduced. The preliminary ERJ schedule for February from what I have heard has all pilots mid seniority and lower that previously held flying positions being forced onto reserve. If this is any indication of things to come we are headed for trouble. We are all concerned about increased wages and pilot retention and seem frustrated that the company is not addressing these issues. But do they need too? Or as stated in previous posts maybe this is a way out of the current CPA and/or possibly the demise of Jazz in the very near future ? If the plan is to reduce the fleet to 80 fins by 2025 then there is no need to worry about retention or increased wages.

(If the operation continues at the current level of flying from AC)


E175 - 25
RJ/900 - 35
RJ/200 - 15
Dash8/Q400 - 39

1151 Active pilots.
1326 Flying portions in current bid.

1326 Pilots for "Peak" of Operations 2023 based on 114 Aircraft

930 Pilots to Operate 80 Aircraft in 2025 ?
930 is best case, if we are operating 114 fins now with 1151 then maybe 800 pilots in 2025.

Why would anyone come here now and better yet why stay ...

[truedude]

So we cut a massive amount of routes in the west, along with frequency because someone at Air Canada somehow thinks it is a better long term plan to give up market share than pay pilots more, while today Westjet announces opening a YEG base and brags about how many Jazz pilots they have hired.

This is the Air Canada from early 2000's that saw them go through bankruptcy. The level of stupid we are working with is just staggering.

[Fanblade]

So we cut a massive amount of routes in the west, along with frequency because someone at Air Canada somehow thinks it is a better long term plan to give up market share than pay pilots more, while today Westjet announces opening a YEG base and brags about how many Jazz pilots they have hired.

This is the Air Canada from early 2000's that saw them go through bankruptcy. The level of stupid we are working with is just staggering.

I don’t think Air Canada’s plan A was to cut routes. The recent ACPA MOA was their workaround. When it failed they had no choice but to revert to plan B and cut summer 2023. Simply no time left to make plan A happen.

Since summer is peak. And since summer 2023 is fait accompli. The next peak will be summer 2024. AC has months before summer 2024 is at threat.

And no. AC will do whatever it takes, if the option is available, not to pay. If they decide they must pay? Delay as long as possible.

[truedude]

So we cut a massive amount of routes in the west, along with frequency because someone at Air Canada somehow thinks it is a better long term plan to give up market share than pay pilots more, while today Westjet announces opening a YEG base and brags about how many Jazz pilots they have hired.

This is the Air Canada from early 2000's that saw them go through bankruptcy. The level of stupid we are working with is just staggering.

I don’t think Air Canada’s plan A was to cut routes. The recent ACPA MOA was their workaround. When it failed they had no choice but to revert to plan B and cut summer 2023. Simply no time left to make plan A happen.

Since summer is peak. And since summer 2023 is fait accompli. The next peak will be summer 2024. AC has months before summer 2024 is at threat.

And no. AC will do whatever it takes, if the option is available, not to pay. If they decide they must pay? Delay as long as possible.

It may not have been Plan A, but had they decided to actually solve the problem, we could have stopped the bleeding and started patching holes. But the bleeding since has just grown, and we are losing pilots left right and center. At this rate, there is not way we will be able to staff the current summer schedule, let alone whatever they have planned for 2024. And in the meantime, competition grows, and they entrench their position.

I fear their delay tactics will only make things worse. And that is if they don't try something really dumb that pisses off everyone at mainline and Jazz.

I just have a hard time believing the mess they are creating is somehow more cost effective than paying...

[kiaszceski]

Like what's happening at Encore, there's a plan behind it and we will know once it's done.

[Nick678]

IMO the cheapest solution is a seniority one. Nothing close to DOH but maybe 1-2 years or something. Jazz doesn’t want to pay pilots more so it’s cheaper to grow the carrot.

[kiaszceski]

But then the burden would be on AC side.
That was what the AC MOA was giving Jazz pilots, a 2 years LOA and directly enter year 3 formula pay for Jazz pilots.
It got turned down 80% if I remember.

[truedude]

But then the burden would be on AC side.
That was what the AC MOA was giving Jazz pilots, a 2 years LOA and directly enter year 3 formula pay for Jazz pilots.
It got turned down 80% if I remember.

This is Air Canada's burden whether they like it or not. They either pay more in CPA costs so Jazz can fix the payscale. Or Jazz continues to be unblable to staff their flying, and AC looses frequency and regional markets. Either way, it is on them...

Seems to me it would be cheaper just to cough up the money and make sure their operation is a well tuned machine than what is happening now...

But they clearly feel differently.

[Rowdy]

IMO the cheapest solution is a seniority one. Nothing close to DOH but maybe 1-2 years or something. Jazz doesn’t want to pay pilots more so it’s cheaper to grow the carrot.

That is a terrible idea. No one at AC wants Jazz pilots accruing seniority there and most of us at jazz that wanted to stick around don't give a flying hoot about AC seniority. Its only a minor incentive to attract 250hr college kids, which, is not who we need. Neither group wants this and it opens up too many variables and will allow the companies to whipsaw us.

You know how you fix this mess? Its really easy. MONEY!

Jazz?

cut the first 4 years off the pay scale and throw them in the garbage. add 30% for inflation and other costs. Make a better commuter schedule/benefit and fix some of our scheduling. Most importantly 5.0 min credit. Throw a couple little things in and Boom. Problem solved.

AC?

Get rid of the four year flat pay. Fix the reserve rules and pay EVERYONE the same wages. None of this rouge/cargo lower pay nonsense and throw some money at the senior pilots so they'll vote for it.

[Canadaflyer46]

But then the burden would be on AC side.
That was what the AC MOA was giving Jazz pilots, a 2 years LOA and directly enter year 3 formula pay for Jazz pilots.
It got turned down 80% if I remember.

This is Air Canada's burden whether they like it or not. They either pay more in CPA costs so Jazz can fix the payscale. Or Jazz continues to be unblable to staff their flying, and AC looses frequency and regional markets. Either way, it is on them...

Seems to me it would be cheaper just to cough up the money and make sure their operation is a well tuned machine than what is happening now...

But they clearly feel differently.

Same over at WJ/Encore. We all used to think when the shortage hit they'd have to pay up, as they have in the US. Turns out they'll just lower and lower the experience requirements. And when that no longer works, management is so stubborn they'd likely rather sink the place than actually attempt to solve their attraction/retention issues with any money.

[averageatbest]

Same over at WJ/Encore. We all used to think when the shortage hit they'd have to pay up, as they have in the US. Turns out they'll just lower and lower the experience requirements. And when that no longer works, management is so stubborn they'd likely rather sink the place than actually attempt to solve their attraction/retention issues with any money.

They just gave Encore a pretty decent raise by a different name...

[RoAF-Mig21]

IMO the cheapest solution is a seniority one. Nothing close to DOH but maybe 1-2 years or something. Jazz doesn’t want to pay pilots more so it’s cheaper to grow the carrot.

That is a terrible idea. No one at AC wants Jazz pilots accruing seniority there and most of us at jazz that wanted to stick around don't give a flying hoot about AC seniority. Its only a minor incentive to attract 250hr college kids, which, is not who we need. Neither group wants this and it opens up too many variables and will allow the companies to whipsaw us.

You know how you fix this mess? Its really easy. MONEY!

Jazz?

cut the first 4 years off the pay scale and throw them in the garbage. add 30% for inflation and other costs. Make a better commuter schedule/benefit and fix some of our scheduling. Most importantly 5.0 min credit. Throw a couple little things in and Boom. Problem solved.

AC?

Get rid of the four year flat pay. Fix the reserve rules and pay EVERYONE the same wages. None of this rouge/cargo lower pay nonsense and throw some money at the senior pilots so they'll vote for it.

Well said. I'll add some things if I may.

A large percentage of Jazz pilots are commuters, be it by plane, driving their car or taking the train. It's not unusual to see many of them commute from NS, NB or even the prairies. Also "local" pilots drive from as far as Windsor and Ottawa and everything in between. Many also drive in from Barrie. The cost of living in YYZ is so high that nobody can afford to live there anymore, even if you're renting... so whether we like to admit it or not, pilots start venturing further and further away from their base, so they can offer their families a decent place to live.

A lot of these pilots, especially the junior ones, if they live beyond the "2 hr call out" cannot even be on reserve, so they're stuck in their current position until they gain more seniority to get off rezerve. Even if you do get off reserve, there is no guarantee you won't go back on it and even if you hold a block, you'll get the scraps. That means, you'll have a mix of 1, 2, 3 or 4 day pairings. If you live in London, ON. it becomes very expensive, time consuming, not to mention fatiguing to drive 1h 45m each way (350 km round trip), especially if you have to do it 3 to 4 times a week.

Having a crashpad in Toronto is one way to fix that, but many would never conteplate that and renting a private room is so expensive that any extra money you'd make as a new captain (going from senior F/O) would not be able to cover it. So then what's the point of upgrading? Many chose to stay on a senior F/Os with a good schedule and be able to do away with crashpads.

[Loon-A-Tic]

IMO the cheapest solution is a seniority one. Nothing close to DOH but maybe 1-2 years or something. Jazz doesn’t want to pay pilots more so it’s cheaper to grow the carrot.

That is a terrible idea. No one at AC wants Jazz pilots accruing seniority there and most of us at jazz that wanted to stick around don't give a flying hoot about AC seniority. Its only a minor incentive to attract 250hr college kids, which, is not who we need. Neither group wants this and it opens up too many variables and will allow the companies to whipsaw us.

You know how you fix this mess? Its really easy. MONEY!

Jazz?

cut the first 4 years off the pay scale and throw them in the garbage. add 30% for inflation and other costs. Make a better commuter schedule/benefit and fix some of our scheduling. Most importantly 5.0 min credit. Throw a couple little things in and Boom. Problem solved.

AC?

Get rid of the four year flat pay. Fix the reserve rules and pay EVERYONE the same wages. None of this rouge/cargo lower pay nonsense and throw some money at the senior pilots so they'll vote for it.

Well said. I'll add some things if I may.

A large percentage of Jazz pilots are commuters, be it by plane, driving their car or taking the train. It's not unusual to see many of them commute from NS, NB or even the prairies. Also "local" pilots drive from as far as Windsor and Ottawa and everything in between. Many also drive in from Barrie. The cost of living in YYZ is so high that nobody can afford to live there anymore, even if you're renting... so whether we like to admit it or not, pilots start venturing further and further away from their base, so they can offer their families a decent place to live.

A lot of these pilots, especially the junior ones, if they live beyond the "2 hr call out" cannot even be on reserve, so they're stuck in their current position until they gain more seniority to get off rezerve. Even if you do get off reserve, there is no guarantee you won't go back on it and even if you hold a block, you'll get the scraps. That means, you'll have a mix of 1, 2, 3 or 4 day pairings. If you live in London, ON. it becomes very expensive, time consuming, not to mention fatiguing to drive 1h 45m each way (350 km round trip), especially if you have to do it 3 to 4 times a week.

Having a crashpad in Toronto is one way to fix that, but many would never conteplate that and renting a private room is so expensive that any extra money you'd make as a new captain (going from senior F/O) would not be able to cover it. So then what's the point of upgrading? Many chose to stay on a senior F/Os with a good schedule and be able to do away with crashpads.

Just to circle back to and older discussion; a "command" upgrade cannot be "forced" on a senior FO either, even if they hold ATPL license.

[Rowdy]

All good points.

The commuting this is a real issue for many. We have lots that commute from the prairies, island and interior as they choose a better lifestyle with a lower cost of living. It's not easy!

I'm an hour and thirty drive from one of the most expensive bases in the country. It was all I could afford. Pretty pathetic as an 'airline captain' who was only able to manage that through years of investing and a small sum from an injury.

I honestly don't think a new captain, or anyone hired post 2015 could afford to buy a single family home near YYZ or YVR. Heck even YYC and YUL are climbing in price. Most are forced into WDO's and overtime just to make ends meet. Hard to do with a 2hr drive each way for some or a lengthy by air commute($).

That could be a good add on in addition to increases in pay and a higher min daily credit.

[rudder]

All good points.

The commuting this is a real issue for many. We have lots that commute from the prairies, island and interior as they choose a better lifestyle with a lower cost of living. It's not easy!

I'm an hour and thirty drive from one of the most expensive bases in the country. It was all I could afford. Pretty pathetic as an 'airline captain' who was only able to manage that through years of investing and a small sum from an injury.

I honestly don't think a new captain, or anyone hired post 2015 could afford to buy a single family home near YYZ or YVR. Heck even YYC and YUL are climbing in price. Most are forced into WDO's and overtime just to make ends meet. Hard to do with a 2hr drive each way for some or a lengthy by air commute($).

That could be a good add on in addition to increases in pay and a higher min daily credit.

The US majors are starting to do that for mainline pilots.

Difference is Jazz does NOT own the seats that it flies.

[Rowdy]

Yes rudder,

But AC owns a good chunk of CHR and Jazz. They just don't like playing nicely.