Negotiations

[canadian_aviator_4]

Take more delays to allow further Westjet pilots to go to fly at Air Canada ahead of us, while at Jazz we deliver them passengers for connections at reduced pay.

[rudder]

So what are the next steps now that the company walked out of the negotiations?

It is quo until the parties mutually agree to any modifications to the CBA.

Running the company and hiring pilots is an employer function. That and following the terms of the CBA.

AC believes it can function status quo. It modified the equipment bid to reflect that reality. Jazz will have to see if it can function with status quo. Different issues. Different obligations. Different challenges.

[Loon-A-Tic]

So what are the next steps now that the company walked out of the negotiations?

It is quo until the parties mutually agree to any modifications to the CBA.

Running the company and hiring pilots is an employer function. That and following the terms of the CBA.

AC believes it can function status quo. It modified the equipment bid to reflect that reality. Jazz will have to see if it can function with status quo. Different issues. Different obligations. Different challenges.

Jazz needs to restore itself as a career employer with commensurate remuneration at all levels, benefits etc., flow has served its purpose. AC needs pilots so for those aspiring to AC; identify a suitable employer, gain the required experience. Be it at Jazz, Westjet or any other entity, apply to the Mothership. Suspending flow puts everyone on an equal footing, you're neither gaining nor loosing wherever you are currently employed.

[canadian_aviator_4]

So what are the next steps now that the company walked out of the negotiations?

It is quo until the parties mutually agree to any modifications to the CBA.

Running the company and hiring pilots is an employer function. That and following the terms of the CBA.

AC believes it can function status quo. It modified the equipment bid to reflect that reality. Jazz will have to see if it can function with status quo. Different issues. Different obligations. Different challenges.

Jazz needs to restore itself as a career employer with commensurate remuneration at all levels, benefits etc., flow has served its purpose. AC needs pilots so for those aspiring to AC; identify a suitable employer, gain the required experience. Be it at Jazz, Westjet or any other entity, apply to the Mothership. Suspending flow puts everyone on an equal footing, you're neither gaining nor loosing wherever you are currently employed.

Many came to jazz for flow. So not really fair or representative of all of the pilot groups interest suspending it. As I was led to believe unions are built to function in a somewhat democratic way, where proposals are put to a vote. No?

[negroni]

So what are the next steps now that the company walked out of the negotiations?

Jazz walks out all the time. They did numerous times in 2014 and 2018. They'll be back. Like they always do.

[Loon-A-Tic]

It is quo until the parties mutually agree to any modifications to the CBA.

Running the company and hiring pilots is an employer function. That and following the terms of the CBA.

AC believes it can function status quo. It modified the equipment bid to reflect that reality. Jazz will have to see if it can function with status quo. Different issues. Different obligations. Different challenges.

Jazz needs to restore itself as a career employer with commensurate remuneration at all levels, benefits etc., flow has served its purpose. AC needs pilots so for those aspiring to AC; identify a suitable employer, gain the required experience. Be it at Jazz, Westjet or any other entity, apply to the Mothership. Suspending flow puts everyone on an equal footing, you're neither gaining nor loosing wherever you are currently employed.

Many came to jazz for flow. So not really fair or representative of all of the pilot groups interest suspending it. As I was led to believe unions are built to function in a somewhat democratic way, where proposals are put to a vote. No?

Flow was the "carrot" that led you to Jazz, just as it was at SKV. However; times have now change, I'm sure a vote will occur at some point, but the reality is that flow isn't a "selling point" anymore.

[negroni]

It is quo until the parties mutually agree to any modifications to the CBA.

Running the company and hiring pilots is an employer function. That and following the terms of the CBA.

AC believes it can function status quo. It modified the equipment bid to reflect that reality. Jazz will have to see if it can function with status quo. Different issues. Different obligations. Different challenges.

Jazz needs to restore itself as a career employer with commensurate remuneration at all levels, benefits etc., flow has served its purpose. AC needs pilots so for those aspiring to AC; identify a suitable employer, gain the required experience. Be it at Jazz, Westjet or any other entity, apply to the Mothership. Suspending flow puts everyone on an equal footing, you're neither gaining nor loosing wherever you are currently employed.

Many came to jazz for flow. So not really fair or representative of all of the pilot groups interest suspending it. As I was led to believe unions are built to function in a somewhat democratic way, where proposals are put to a vote. No?

A unions job is to protect and improve working conditions and create more good unionized jobs. Their job isn't to get you a gravy deal to LEAVE their union and job.

Jazz ALPAs first and foremost duty of representation is to the pilots at Jazz and the job at Jazz. If out of that there is a deal to be found on flow, that in exchange benefits the Jazz pilots who are there to stay then great. What you won't see happen is ALPA negotiate a deal that only benefits the company and those pilots who want to leave, without getting anything in return. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Loon-A-Tic]

There was a time when Jazz, SKV and by extension AC need the "carrot" of flow but those days are over. Flow may actually may now be "limiting" the migration of a Jazz pilot to The Mothership. What Jazz now needs is leading remuneration for the pilot group, retention is now the leading concern. Some will stay, others will move on welcome to the next 10 years.

The new "carrot" needs to be industry leading entry wages at all levels, particularly at the entry level (so you can survive "flat pay" at AC), affordable benefits scaled to wages and an enhanced pension plan (for the Jazz lifer's).

[canadian_aviator_4]

There was a time when Jazz, SKV and by extension AC need the "carrot" of flow but those days are over. Flow may actually may now be "limiting" the migration of a Jazz pilot to The Mothership. What Jazz now needs is leading remuneration for the pilot group, retention is now the leading concern. Some will stay, others will move on welcome to the next 10 years.

The new "carrot" needs to be industry leading entry wages at all levels, particularly at the entry level (so you can survive "flat pay" at AC), affordable benefits scaled to wages and an enhanced pension plan (for the Jazz lifer's).

What jazz needs to do is consider the interests and concerns of all parties involved, simply put: Improved pay for those that want to stay and flow for those that don’t. Not one or the other.

[kiaszceski]

So what are the next steps now that the company walked out of the negotiations?

Jazz walks out all the time. They did numerous times in 2014 and 2018. They'll be back. Like they always do.

When they came back, who made the most of the gains? Jazz or ALPA?

[Inverted2]

I think we’ll get something decent this time. Either that or they won’t get any experienced applicants. The recent trickle to AC isn’t selling itself either.

To answer your question last time in 2018 we got a nice 2% annual raise and our benefit premiums skyrocketed so with that and inflation we got a massive pay cut.

[negroni]

There was a time when Jazz, SKV and by extension AC need the "carrot" of flow but those days are over. Flow may actually may now be "limiting" the migration of a Jazz pilot to The Mothership. What Jazz now needs is leading remuneration for the pilot group, retention is now the leading concern. Some will stay, others will move on welcome to the next 10 years.

The new "carrot" needs to be industry leading entry wages at all levels, particularly at the entry level (so you can survive "flat pay" at AC), affordable benefits scaled to wages and an enhanced pension plan (for the Jazz lifer's).

What jazz needs to do is consider the interests and concerns of all parties involved, simply put: Improved pay for those that want to stay and flow for those that don’t. Not one or the other.

I don't think you understand what the purpose of a union is.

[canadian_aviator_4]

There was a time when Jazz, SKV and by extension AC need the "carrot" of flow but those days are over. Flow may actually may now be "limiting" the migration of a Jazz pilot to The Mothership. What Jazz now needs is leading remuneration for the pilot group, retention is now the leading concern. Some will stay, others will move on welcome to the next 10 years.

The new "carrot" needs to be industry leading entry wages at all levels, particularly at the entry level (so you can survive "flat pay" at AC), affordable benefits scaled to wages and an enhanced pension plan (for the Jazz lifer's).

What jazz needs to do is consider the interests and concerns of all parties involved, simply put: Improved pay for those that want to stay and flow for those that don’t. Not one or the other.

I don't think you understand what the purpose of a union is.

Defend the interests of a pilot group. Whether that actually happens is another story.

[negroni]

What jazz needs to do is consider the interests and concerns of all parties involved, simply put: Improved pay for those that want to stay and flow for those that don’t. Not one or the other.

I don't think you understand what the purpose of a union is.

Defend the interests of a pilot group. Whether that actually happens is another story.

No. You're wrong.

A labour organizations duty is to protect and improve WAWCON within their own organization.

I heard Claude say very clearly at the roadshow in 2019, that the "flow" was added at the very end. The company essentially gave it to pump the deal up so it would pass. Zero bargaining value was used to obtain it.

I expect the Jazz MEC will still have the same train of thought. Flow only benefits the company and keeps wages supressed.

It's not Jazz ALPAs job to get you a better job elsewhere.

[Loon-A-Tic]

What jazz needs to do is consider the interests and concerns of all parties involved, simply put: Improved pay for those that want to stay and flow for those that don’t. Not one or the other.

I don't think you understand what the purpose of a union is.

Defend the interests of a pilot group. Whether that actually happens is another story.

Those interest also change over time, and these are certainly changing times for the industry.

[canadian_aviator_4]

I don't think you understand what the purpose of a union is.

Defend the interests of a pilot group. Whether that actually happens is another story.

No. You're wrong.

A labour organizations duty is to protect and improve WAWCON within their own organization.

I heard Claude say very clearly at the roadshow in 2019, that the "flow" was added at the very end. The company essentially gave it to pump the deal up so it would pass. Zero bargaining value was used to obtain it.

I expect the Jazz MEC will still have the same train of thought. Flow only benefits the company and keeps wages supressed.

It's not Jazz ALPAs job to get you a better job elsewhere.

I guess that wouldn’t be too much of a surprise: A union improving their own work conditions at the expense of junior members.

[negroni]

Defend the interests of a pilot group. Whether that actually happens is another story.

No. You're wrong.

A labour organizations duty is to protect and improve WAWCON within their own organization.

I heard Claude say very clearly at the roadshow in 2019, that the "flow" was added at the very end. The company essentially gave it to pump the deal up so it would pass. Zero bargaining value was used to obtain it.

I expect the Jazz MEC will still have the same train of thought. Flow only benefits the company and keeps wages supressed.

It's not Jazz ALPAs job to get you a better job elsewhere.

I guess that wouldn’t be too much of a surprise: A union improving their own work conditions at the expense of junior members.

Man a 4 day trip with you would be miserable.

[canadian_aviator_4]

No. You're wrong.

A labour organizations duty is to protect and improve WAWCON within their own organization.

I heard Claude say very clearly at the roadshow in 2019, that the "flow" was added at the very end. The company essentially gave it to pump the deal up so it would pass. Zero bargaining value was used to obtain it.

I expect the Jazz MEC will still have the same train of thought. Flow only benefits the company and keeps wages supressed.

It's not Jazz ALPAs job to get you a better job elsewhere.

I guess that wouldn’t be too much of a surprise: A union improving their own work conditions at the expense of junior members.

Man a 4 day trip with you would be miserable.

Love you too bro

[Nick678]

Didn’t flow get us to the position where there is a shortage and now talks about pay are on the table? Remove it and AC will never hire from Jazz again, shown by how they avoided hiring us all year.

The negotiations are hopefully centred around improving pay without touching that 60%. I swear they change it we’ll all walk. We’ll never get close to AC wages so it’s really the only reason people apply, unless you’re coming straight from the daycares.

I’d pray for a seniority integration but I’ll keep dreaming.

[rudder]

Didn’t flow get us to the position where there is a shortage and now talks about pay are on the table? Remove it and AC will never hire from Jazz again, shown by how they avoided hiring us all year.

The negotiations are hopefully centred around improving pay without touching that 60%. I swear they change it we’ll all walk. We’ll never get close to AC wages so it’s really the only reason people apply, unless you’re coming straight from the daycares.

I’d pray for a seniority integration but I’ll keep dreaming.

Here is an interesting question - when since it’s inception has the 60% quota been honoured within any calendar year?

Not trying to suggest removing or diminishing that provision. Just trying to see if it has ever really been honoured because if it is not being honoured and (seemingly) cannot be enforced, then what is its true value?