Nick678 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:56 pm
Didn’t flow get us to the position where there is a shortage and now talks about pay are on the table? Remove it and AC will never hire from Jazz again, shown by how they avoided hiring us all year.
The negotiations are hopefully centred around improving pay without touching that 60%. I swear they change it we’ll all walk. We’ll never get close to AC wages so it’s really the only reason people apply, unless you’re coming straight from the daycares.
I’d pray for a seniority integration but I’ll keep dreaming.
Here is an interesting question - when since it’s inception has the 60% quota been honoured within any calendar year?
Not trying to suggest removing or diminishing that provision. Just trying to see if it has ever really been honoured because if it is not being honoured and (seemingly) cannot be enforced, then what is its true value?
A question, over the past few years it probably went above and below %60. However, I wonder if it has ever been as low as it has been this year?
I couldn’t agree more regarding enforcement. The %60 hiring from my understanding cannot be enforced.
Nick678 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:56 pm
Didn’t flow get us to the position where there is a shortage and now talks about pay are on the table? Remove it and AC will never hire from Jazz again, shown by how they avoided hiring us all year.
The negotiations are hopefully centred around improving pay without touching that 60%. I swear they change it we’ll all walk. We’ll never get close to AC wages so it’s really the only reason people apply, unless you’re coming straight from the daycares.
I’d pray for a seniority integration but I’ll keep dreaming.
Here is an interesting question - when since it’s inception has the 60% quota been honoured within any calendar year?
Not trying to suggest removing or diminishing that provision. Just trying to see if it has ever really been honoured because if it is not being honoured and (seemingly) cannot be enforced, then what is its true value?
A question, over the past few years it probably went above and below %60. However, I wonder if it has ever been as low as it has been this year?
I couldn’t agree more regarding enforcement. The %60 hiring from my understanding cannot be enforced.
Nick678 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:56 pm
Didn’t flow get us to the position where there is a shortage and now talks about pay are on the table? Remove it and AC will never hire from Jazz again, shown by how they avoided hiring us all year.
The negotiations are hopefully centred around improving pay without touching that 60%. I swear they change it we’ll all walk. We’ll never get close to AC wages so it’s really the only reason people apply, unless you’re coming straight from the daycares.
I’d pray for a seniority integration but I’ll keep dreaming.
Here is an interesting question - when since it’s inception has the 60% quota been honoured within any calendar year?
Not trying to suggest removing or diminishing that provision. Just trying to see if it has ever really been honoured because if it is not being honoured and (seemingly) cannot be enforced, then what is its true value?
A question, over the past few years it probably went above and below %60. However, I wonder if it has ever been as low as it has been this year?
I couldn’t agree more regarding enforcement. The %60 hiring from my understanding cannot be enforced.
Middle/end of 2017 and 2018 was extremely low. It was also a BS system back then and AC picked and chose who they wanted based on fleet requirements at Jazz. I know many people who were skipped over (and later hired) because they were flying a fleet that was short staffed while some with a hair over a year at Jazz got hired at AC. 2017/2018 also had a large amount of Porter and Encore pilots hired while hiring stagnated form Jazz.
There's nothing new under the sun. It's all happened before and it will happen again.
The 60% “flow” as it is written is a joke. It should be done away with completely. Everyone who is on the list to go to AC is essentially handicapped as far as getting to AC goes. You can only go when AC decides Jazz can afford to loose you, you can not apply “off the street”, AC can halt hiring from Jazz at any time, yet continue to hire off the street which you can not partake in.
The “flow” program benefits AC much much more then it benefits any pilot who checked the box. I’m not against a proper flow program but it has to benefit all pilots on the property.
We recently received updated information regarding 2022 Pilot movement from the Company and Air Canada. This includes the November 16 Air Canada course. It should be no surprise to anyone that Air Canada is way behind on what they should have hired from Jazz.
After all calculations, Air Canada needs to hire another 248 Jazz Pilots by December 31 to be in compliance for 2022. Any further non-Jazz Pilots hired after November 16 will increase this number.
Air Canada resumed hiring Jazz Pilots as of November 7. Based on hiring projections it is unrealistic that Air Canada will be in compliance on December 31.
As you know, we are currently in negotiations with the Company. The MEC prefers to address this deficit with a collectively bargained solution. If unsuccessful, the MEC has a plan in place to address the lack of compliance, including mechanisms outside of the normal grievance process.
While we understand members may want more information, sharing our strategy publicly may prejudice potential options and undermine our genuine efforts to negotiate a solution.
I can't see AC facing any backlash from this but Jazz sure will. That 60% was used as a recruitment tool and that carrot got a lot of us here. Now they won't honour it and Jazz will hopefully pay the price.
But how can you compensate the guy/gals who were supposed to "flow" and are now loosing YOS, seniority, upgrade opportunities, etc ..... All for flying AC pax's around?
If your goal is AC, it's much faster to get there anywhere else than Jazz. Don't bet your career on the 60% flow, it's not being followed. Staffing is getting worse at jazz and AC will continue to hire off the street so it dosnt cripple it's regional. Your career is your responsibility alone, make smart decisions.
Nick678 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:21 pm
I can't see AC facing any backlash from this but Jazz sure will. That 60% was used as a recruitment tool and that carrot got a lot of us here. Now they won't honour it and Jazz will hopefully pay the price.
But how can you compensate the guy/gals who were supposed to "flow" and are now loosing YOS, seniority, upgrade opportunities, etc ..... All for flying AC pax's around?
Are you suggesting Jazz pilots who did not flow are entitled to compensation for losing YOS, seniority, upgrade opportunities that they were not entitled to in the first place unless they got an actual job at Air Canada? Air Canada doesn't owe you anything. They stopped the flow, re-started it and may stop it again in the future. The agreement should be honoured to its fullest.
Nick678 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:21 pm
I can't see AC facing any backlash from this but Jazz sure will. That 60% was used as a recruitment tool and that carrot got a lot of us here. Now they won't honour it and Jazz will hopefully pay the price.
But how can you compensate the guy/gals who were supposed to "flow" and are now loosing YOS, seniority, upgrade opportunities, etc ..... All for flying AC pax's around?
Are you suggesting Jazz pilots who did not flow are entitled to compensation for losing YOS, seniority, upgrade opportunities that they were not entitled to in the first place unless they got an actual job at Air Canada? Air Canada doesn't owe you anything. They stopped the flow, re-started it and may stop it again in the future. The agreement should be honoured to its fullest.
Don't expect handouts.
You can liken flow to a command upgrade, it's a chance to "qualify" not a guarantee. There's no entitlement in either offer, just an opportunity.
Jazz could redistribute those funds into the pay scale to help bump it up and make the airline somewhat attractive to new hires. But I just don’t see how AC remains willing to continue with the current flow when they have so much hiring planned.
Transition9er2 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:37 pm
Just a guess and speculation.
I can see AC trying to “buy out” the 60% flow.
Jazz could redistribute those funds into the pay scale to help bump it up and make the airline somewhat attractive to new hires. But I just don’t see how AC remains willing to continue with the current flow when they have so much hiring planned.
I guess time will tell.
Will ACPA have something to say about that?
I see AC willing to lose millions in reduced CPA flying over the winter to take on Jazz pilots.
