Negotiations

[kiaszceski]

The first ones with a new payscale are going to be Flair pilots.
If the pay is substantially higher than Encore/Jazz then we will see them increase their wawcons.

So Encore and Jazz are both in contract negotiations? When can we expect a prediction or a sneak peek for the payscales and perdiems

Not contract negotiations per se... they are both in discussions to solve the companies' problems for as cheap as possible. Unfortunately the pilot attraction and retention issues require expensive fixes.

Curiously Encore and Jazz entered the negotiations about a month before Flair unveils their new contract.

[Malfunction]

When we began meeting with the Company in October, the Negotiating Committee’s focus was on an agreement facilitating contractual movement to Air Canada, subsequent issues arising from that attrition, and total compensation for all Pilots. Several proposals have been exchanged between the Company and our Negotiating Committee over the past several weeks. Negotiations currently remain open.



The dialogue has brought clarity to many of our outstanding issues - the most important being contractual hiring by Air Canada. It seems Air Canada has no intention to hire the requisite number of Pilots from Jazz for 2022, and no plan to catch up that deficit beginning in January 2023. Whatever the overall result of the current discussions, we fully expect that the Negotiating Committee will return this problem to the MEC unresolved. The MEC will not remain silent on this topic and will have more information to share prior to the end of the year. In the interim, we have demanded that the Company remove all reference to 60% hiring from their Pilot recruitment materials (which is agreed and nearly complete).



We have watched the industry in the United States rapidly evolve this year. It is becoming clear that similar deals with massive pay raises in a single fell swoop are not possible at the present time. Canadian companies have watched that situation play out in the US and are hesitant to allow those domino increases to happen in the same manner. Gains may be possible for us but, unless there is a change in circumstances in our favour, our gains will likely be successive. However, we must ensure that anything we negotiate in the meantime will not completely relieve pressure on the Company to the point that a larger adjustment to our working conditions becomes more difficult to achieve.



As many are likely aware, Air Canada Pilots have elected new representatives in two of their base councils and the ACPA MEC has elected a new Chair, First Officer Charlene Hudy, a former ALPA MEC Chair from First Air. We have been advancing and repairing our relationship with ACPA. Some may question the merit of this relationship given recent events. That skepticism is understandable, but we must continue to nurture a working relationship. The most meaningful gains for both Pilot groups will happen if we can remain coordinated, working together as Air Canada network Pilots to deliver Air Canada the greatest service for the greatest value.



The MEC met virtually last week to discuss the status of negotiations. The Negotiating Committee will continue working with the Company. The MEC is planning to meet on December 19 in Toronto to review progress and determine next steps.


In solidarity,



JAZ MEC

[rudder]

Like I said - employer has choice of working within status quo or agreeing to acceptable changes that benefit both parties. Seems like Jazz and AC are both in the same position except that in the case of AC it is likely that ACPA may not be in a position to resume any negotiations until there is a firm leadership direction representative of the membership priorities. The JAZ MEC representatives seem to be in firm ground already in this respect.

Jazz may see the winter schedule as a reprieve whereas AC understand that winter lull is an opportunity to hire/train for the summer 2023 peak flying levels. It has never been a better time for a pilot who is looking for a new job. Non-competitive compensation means empty seats at groundschool and parked airplanes. Some carriers recognize this. Others do not (yet).

[Inverted2]

“In the interim, we have demanded that the Company remove all reference to 60% hiring from their Pilot recruitment materials (which is agreed and nearly complete).”

At least they’re going to remove the false advertising.

[FriendslyCanadian]

If I'm understanding correctly, AC never intended to offer that many positions to jazz pilots but was forced attempt to avoid mass Exodus from jazz or pay a penalty. The 60% "offer" in the contract kept wages down at jazz for a decade. Any meaningfull wage increase at jazz will be met with ACPA wanting a proper increase at mainline.

Now with portal for jazz applications to AC being frozen for months can't imagine they want to honor anything outside of optics to keep the express filled. Maybe they open it for a 24 hours every few months or something to make it look good.

Going to jazz now seems like a crazy choice. Most DEC fail and those that make it will be below 1600 pilots so with 18days reserve a month always below any FO that upgrades.. any base closure,shrinking, recession or economic drain will push the junior captains to bottom of FO list. The FOs taking home wage after all the deductions is 1000$ a paycheck give or take 100$ from what I'm understanding.. That's 24k a year... Junior FOs can't pay rent without working 18 or more days for per diems.

The MEC really seems like they are doing their best with the cards dealt.

Open to any other thought too. Am I missing something?

[rudder]

Going to jazz now seems like a crazy choice. Most DEC fail and those that make it will be below 1600 pilots so with 18days reserve a month always below any FO that upgrades.. any base closure,shrinking, recession or economic drain will push the junior captains to bottom of FO list. The FOs taking home wage after all the deductions is 1000$ a paycheck give or take 100$ from what I'm understanding.. That's 24k a year... Junior FOs can't pay rent without working 18 or more days for per diems.

Perhaps this info should be included in the job ads as well? Truth in advertising.

[flyingcanuck]

If I'm understanding correctly, AC never intended to offer that many positions to jazz pilots but was forced attempt to avoid mass Exodus from jazz or pay a penalty. The 60% "offer" in the contract kept wages down at jazz for a decade. Any meaningfull wage increase at jazz will be met with ACPA wanting a proper increase at mainline.

Now with portal for jazz applications to AC being frozen for months can't imagine they want to honor anything outside of optics to keep the express filled. Maybe they open it for a 24 hours every few months or something to make it look good.

Going to jazz now seems like a crazy choice. Most DEC fail and those that make it will be below 1600 pilots so with 18days reserve a month always below any FO that upgrades.. any base closure,shrinking, recession or economic drain will push the junior captains to bottom of FO list. The FOs taking home wage after all the deductions is 1000$ a paycheck give or take 100$ from what I'm understanding.. That's 24k a year... Junior FOs can't pay rent without working 18 or more days for per diems.

The MEC really seems like they are doing their best with the cards dealt.

Open to any other thought too. Am I missing something?

Nope, pretty accurate

[daedalusx]

If I'm understanding correctly, AC never intended to offer that many positions to jazz pilots but was forced attempt to avoid mass Exodus from jazz or pay a penalty. The 60% "offer" in the contract kept wages down at jazz for a decade. Any meaningfull wage increase at jazz will be met with ACPA wanting a proper increase at mainline.

Now with portal for jazz applications to AC being frozen for months can't imagine they want to honor anything outside of optics to keep the express filled. Maybe they open it for a 24 hours every few months or something to make it look good.

Going to jazz now seems like a crazy choice. Most DEC fail and those that make it will be below 1600 pilots so with 18days reserve a month always below any FO that upgrades.. any base closure,shrinking, recession or economic drain will push the junior captains to bottom of FO list. The FOs taking home wage after all the deductions is 1000$ a paycheck give or take 100$ from what I'm understanding.. That's 24k a year... Junior FOs can't pay rent without working 18 or more days for per diems.

The MEC really seems like they are doing their best with the cards dealt.

Open to any other thought too. Am I missing something?

Which is why it was utterly retarded to sign a 17 year agreement (or whatever long that was) in the middle of a nationwide pilot shortage. Oh well, can’t say the Jazz folks weren’t warned about this precise scenario.

[cdnavater]

If I'm understanding correctly, AC never intended to offer that many positions to jazz pilots but was forced attempt to avoid mass Exodus from jazz or pay a penalty. The 60% "offer" in the contract kept wages down at jazz for a decade. Any meaningfull wage increase at jazz will be met with ACPA wanting a proper increase at mainline.

Now with portal for jazz applications to AC being frozen for months can't imagine they want to honor anything outside of optics to keep the express filled. Maybe they open it for a 24 hours every few months or something to make it look good.

Going to jazz now seems like a crazy choice. Most DEC fail and those that make it will be below 1600 pilots so with 18days reserve a month always below any FO that upgrades.. any base closure,shrinking, recession or economic drain will push the junior captains to bottom of FO list. The FOs taking home wage after all the deductions is 1000$ a paycheck give or take 100$ from what I'm understanding.. That's 24k a year... Junior FOs can't pay rent without working 18 or more days for per diems.

The MEC really seems like they are doing their best with the cards dealt.

Open to any other thought too. Am I missing something?

Which is why it was utterly retarded to sign a 17 year agreement (or whatever long that was) in the middle of a nationwide pilot shortage. Oh well, can’t say the Jazz folks weren’t warned about this precise scenario.

Perhaps you could provide some facts to back up your incredibly stupid assertion we were in “the middle of a nationwide pilot shortage” when we signed the long agreement.
AC wanted labour stability, we wanted the bleeding to stop and we are currently 5 years into the extension to the 10 year agreement we signed, it takes us to 2035. Doing the math for you because I believe you might just be too stupid to do it yourself, we signed a 10 year agreement and extended it by 10 years when we were 3 into it.
So, show me this pilot shortage and who realistically predicted it back in 2015 and 2018!
Also, show me now, in the actual shortage who’s making significant gains in their contract, I mean surely in the middle of the shortage we Canadian pilots must be reaping significant gains, moron

[daedalusx]

Perhaps you could provide some facts to back up your incredibly stupid assertion we were in “the middle of a nationwide pilot shortage” when we signed the long agreement.
AC wanted labour stability, we wanted the bleeding to stop and we are currently 5 years into the extension to the 10 year agreement we signed, it takes us to 2035. Doing the math for you because I believe you might just be too stupid to do it yourself, we signed a 10 year agreement and extended it by 10 years when we were 3 into it.
So, show me this pilot shortage and who realistically predicted it back in 2015 and 2018!
Also, show me now, in the actual shortage who’s making significant gains in their contract, I mean surely in the middle of the shortage we Canadian pilots must be reaping significant gains, moron

Enjoy your 42K a year to fly a RJ buddy!

[cdnavater]

Perhaps you could provide some facts to back up your incredibly stupid assertion we were in “the middle of a nationwide pilot shortage” when we signed the long agreement.
AC wanted labour stability, we wanted the bleeding to stop and we are currently 5 years into the extension to the 10 year agreement we signed, it takes us to 2035. Doing the math for you because I believe you might just be too stupid to do it yourself, we signed a 10 year agreement and extended it by 10 years when we were 3 into it.
So, show me this pilot shortage and who realistically predicted it back in 2015 and 2018!
Also, show me now, in the actual shortage who’s making significant gains in their contract, I mean surely in the middle of the shortage we Canadian pilots must be reaping significant gains, moron

Enjoy your 42K a year to fly a RJ buddy!

Well, considering I make about four times that plus a enviable pension by most standards, I’m doing just fine.
It also seems the amount of pilots willing to work for that are not showing up, so maybe there is hope that the wages will go up but as far as you’re concerned, you are still a fucken moron who has no clue about anything, just another idiot with a mouth they can’t back up with facts!

[canadian_aviator_4]

Jerry Jerry Jerry!

[cdnavater]

Jerry Jerry Jerry!

Did you get your sister pregnant again!

[canadian_aviator_4]

Jerry Jerry Jerry!

Did you get your sister pregnant again!

I think that’s Maury

[QKZXKV]

Perhaps you could provide some facts to back up your incredibly stupid assertion we were in “the middle of a nationwide pilot shortage” when we signed the long agreement.
AC wanted labour stability, we wanted the bleeding to stop and we are currently 5 years into the extension to the 10 year agreement we signed, it takes us to 2035. Doing the math for you because I believe you might just be too stupid to do it yourself, we signed a 10 year agreement and extended it by 10 years when we were 3 into it.
So, show me this pilot shortage and who realistically predicted it back in 2015 and 2018!
Also, show me now, in the actual shortage who’s making significant gains in their contract, I mean surely in the middle of the shortage we Canadian pilots must be reaping significant gains, moron

Enjoy your 42K a year to fly a RJ buddy!

Well, considering I make about four times that plus a enviable pension by most standards, I’m doing just fine.
It also seems the amount of pilots willing to work for that are not showing up, so maybe there is hope that the wages will go up but as far as you’re concerned, you are still a fucken moron who has no clue about anything, just another idiot with a mouth they can’t back up with facts!

I think it's possible that something, perhaps the job, has you miserable. You need some time off. We've provided you with tons of facts. You just keep dreaming in technicolor of some alternate reality no one else sees. It's your way or the high way, which must be a real treat to fly with. Either that or you need a drug test....

[cdnavater]

Enjoy your 42K a year to fly a RJ buddy!

Well, considering I make about four times that plus a enviable pension by most standards, I’m doing just fine.
It also seems the amount of pilots willing to work for that are not showing up, so maybe there is hope that the wages will go up but as far as you’re concerned, you are still a fucken moron who has no clue about anything, just another idiot with a mouth they can’t back up with facts!

I think it's possible that something, perhaps the job, has you miserable. You need some time off. We've provided you with tons of facts. You just keep dreaming in technicolor of some alternate reality no one else sees. It's your way or the high way, which must be a real treat to fly with. Either that or you need a drug test....

Show me the FACTS, that we signed a long term deal in the MIDDLE of a nationwide pilot shortage.
I’ve been hearing about the shortage since I got my commercial licence 30 years ago, just before Covid was the first time I saw a hint it might be happening and that’s after four downturns in my career, guess what, half the pilots were furloughed. Now here we are and companies are competing for pilots, and I use the term competing very loosely, what are we staring at now, quite possibly the worst recession since the Great Depression.
Our long term contract gave us piece of mind and repatriated the regional flying from the companies that truly drove the wages down, fucktard has no clue about what he’s talking about and it appears he’s a big part of the problem.
He chose to accept the wages at Jazz thereby delaying Jazz having to deal with the competition and then from some of his posts he goes on to advise that going to AC is worth the four years of shit pay(paraphrasing slightly) for the long term, making him a pilot whore who’s willing to sell his skills for bottom dollar and not willing to sacrifice for the greater good but comes on here a calls Jazz pilots retards, he’s the retarded whore who doesn’t recognize he’s the problem.
As for my anger issues, I’m actually quite cheerful and never ever ever direct any anger at someone who didn’t piss me off, so if you’re feeling like I’m angry, I’m going to suggest it’s you and not me.

BTW, you ex Jazz guys are like smokers who quit smoking, you did it but now that you quit you think you don’t stink anymore

[Canuck1988]

Well, considering I make about four times that plus a enviable pension by most standards, I’m doing just fine.
It also seems the amount of pilots willing to work for that are not showing up, so maybe there is hope that the wages will go up but as far as you’re concerned, you are still a fucken moron who has no clue about anything, just another idiot with a mouth they can’t back up with facts!

I think it's possible that something, perhaps the job, has you miserable. You need some time off. We've provided you with tons of facts. You just keep dreaming in technicolor of some alternate reality no one else sees. It's your way or the high way, which must be a real treat to fly with. Either that or you need a drug test....

Show me the FACTS, that we signed a long term deal in the MIDDLE of a nationwide pilot shortage.
I’ve been hearing about the shortage since I got my commercial licence 30 years ago, just before Covid was the first time I saw a hint it might be happening and that’s after four downturns in my career, guess what, half the pilots were furloughed. Now here we are and companies are competing for pilots, and I use the term competing very loosely, what are we staring at now, quite possibly the worst recession since the Great Depression.
Our long term contract gave us piece of mind and repatriated the regional flying from the companies that truly drove the wages down, fucktard has no clue about what he’s talking about and it appears he’s a big part of the problem.
He chose to accept the wages at Jazz thereby delaying Jazz having to deal with the competition and then from some of his posts he goes on to advise that going to AC is worth the four years of shit pay(paraphrasing slightly) for the long term, making him a pilot whore who’s willing to sell his skills for bottom dollar and not willing to sacrifice for the greater good but comes on here a calls Jazz pilots retards, he’s the retarded whore who doesn’t recognize he’s the problem.
As for my anger issues, I’m actually quite cheerful and never ever ever direct any anger at someone who didn’t piss me off, so if you’re feeling like I’m angry, I’m going to suggest it’s you and not me.

BTW, you ex Jazz guys are like smokers who quit smoking, you did it but now that you quit you think you don’t stink anymore

I do not post very often, but felt the need to do so.

You need to step back and take a breather man. Calling people fucktards, whores and retards on an online forum is not gonna solve any of the worlds problems. Sure, disagree and have a decent argument, but geez, leave the schoolyard lexicon at home.

[cdnavater]

I think it's possible that something, perhaps the job, has you miserable. You need some time off. We've provided you with tons of facts. You just keep dreaming in technicolor of some alternate reality no one else sees. It's your way or the high way, which must be a real treat to fly with. Either that or you need a drug test....

Show me the FACTS, that we signed a long term deal in the MIDDLE of a nationwide pilot shortage.
I’ve been hearing about the shortage since I got my commercial licence 30 years ago, just before Covid was the first time I saw a hint it might be happening and that’s after four downturns in my career, guess what, half the pilots were furloughed. Now here we are and companies are competing for pilots, and I use the term competing very loosely, what are we staring at now, quite possibly the worst recession since the Great Depression.
Our long term contract gave us piece of mind and repatriated the regional flying from the companies that truly drove the wages down, fucktard has no clue about what he’s talking about and it appears he’s a big part of the problem.
He chose to accept the wages at Jazz thereby delaying Jazz having to deal with the competition and then from some of his posts he goes on to advise that going to AC is worth the four years of shit pay(paraphrasing slightly) for the long term, making him a pilot whore who’s willing to sell his skills for bottom dollar and not willing to sacrifice for the greater good but comes on here a calls Jazz pilots retards, he’s the retarded whore who doesn’t recognize he’s the problem.
As for my anger issues, I’m actually quite cheerful and never ever ever direct any anger at someone who didn’t piss me off, so if you’re feeling like I’m angry, I’m going to suggest it’s you and not me.

BTW, you ex Jazz guys are like smokers who quit smoking, you did it but now that you quit you think you don’t stink anymore

I do not post very often, but felt the need to do so.

You need to step back and take a breather man. Calling people fucktards, whores and retards on an online forum is not gonna solve any of the worlds problems. Sure, disagree and have a decent argument, but geez, leave the schoolyard lexicon at home.

Maybe go back and read what transpired prior, the poster in question called Jazz pilots retarded for signing an agreement in the middle of a pilot shortage. Regardless, this poster has not provided any evidence to the truth to his/her assertion and I don’t really put up with moronic bullsquirt.
I’m not here to solve the world’s problems, in fact that ship has sailed but regardless I don’t need a breather, I actually don’t really care what an ex Jazz pilot thinks about our collective decision to sign a long term deal

[canadian_aviator_4]

I don’t really think anyone is happy with the long term agreement, current and former jazz pilots included. I guess the major share holders and management like it. However, I have been reading majority of chorus earnings coming from aircraft leasing.

[rudder]

I don’t really think anyone is happy with the long term agreement, current and former jazz pilots included. I guess the major share holders and management like it. However, I have been reading majority of chorus earnings coming from aircraft leasing.

Don’t forget that mainline got the same treatment: rejected TA = status quo (with a revised equipment bid for 2023 reflecting current training pipeline capacity and current CBA efficiency level). Difference at Jazz may be that there are many attrition destinations available that still lead a pilot to a job at AC.

I sense that neither senior management group know where to go next. They both seem caught off guard by pilot activism and the expectation of joining the fraternity of properly compensated pilots. I hope that neither think that government intervention (again) is on the table.

The good news is that Pilot groups are standing firm on the need for change. The bad news is they seem to be having a one-sided conversation.