Negotiations

[swervin]

Anyone care to comment on the MEC memo released today?

[Malfunction]

Fellow Pilots,



The Company has just released MEMO 2022-345. In summary, Air Canada is planning to immediately restart hiring Jazz Pilots. This does not give Air Canada a “let” from the annual 60% requirement. We will be monitoring for compliance and enforcing our Collective Agreement as required.



For months we have reiterated a consistent message. The Company is under pressure to (1) recruit Pilots; (2) train Pilots at the rate of flow/attrition/retirements; and (3) retain Pilots from departing the Air Canada network. We will not negotiate anything that relieves the Company’s operational pressure without broad and all-encompassing discussions on compensation. The MEC has unanimously held this line despite pressure from the Company and even some members. For example, we have declined requests to pay targeted 2x overtime. We have also declined three separate requests over the past several months to enhance Training Pilot and Line Indoc compensation. We also watched as Air Canada attempted to circumvent our Collective Bargaining processes and fix many of the Company’s problems. I commend the MEC, your Status Representatives, for their patience and for holding firm against very strong pressure to cave early and make mediocre deals.



In this spirit, I am encouraged to report that the Company has approached us to schedule dates for formal in-person negotiations. The Company’s goal is to attract Pilots into the training department so they can train fast enough to maintain 60% flow. They recognize that total compensation for all Pilots will be part of this discussion. We have been clear that we will not bring an agreement to membership which does not contain meaningful gains. I’ve called in the Negotiating Committee to Toronto to engage with the Company starting on the week of October 24.



I am looking forward to working on this opportunity, as the MEC stands unified on the goals. The MEC understands that many people want answers and information as soon as possible or want day-to-day updates. We do not share details of negotiations or proposals while discussions are underway – this negotiation will be no exception. Please allow your MEC and Negotiating Committee time to do this work. You can expect us to keep you informed about important developments.



In unity,



Claude

[Malfunction]

Wages need to match at least porter to stay competitive within the market but I feel we will be lucky to get a 10% increase in this offer. If it's garbage deal we need to be like our brothers and sisters at AC and vote no.

[rudder]

Wages need to match at least porter to stay competitive within the market but I feel we will be lucky to get a 10% increase in this offer. If it's garbage deal we need to be like our brothers and sisters at AC and vote no.

Starting pay min 65k (ATPL). Probationary pay lasts just 1 year. TBH - don’t really care what they pay non-ATPL as they should not be hiring non-ATPL pilots. Every pilot hired should be upgradeable within 12 months.

CA year 1 $100k.

FO pay grid 66.67% of CA.

Rest of pay grid should get immediate min 10% uplift followed by January 01 COLA increases thereafter (2024) based on an independent inflationary scale (government of Canada?). Training pilot compensation (override) needs to increase by 50%.

Top scale CA by 12 years of service.

Sure, that is a wish list. But one needs to reasonably estimate what level of compensation will attract/retain qualified pilots to your operation vs all of the other opportunities. Same for inducing pilots in to the training dept.

It doesn’t matter if it is a 737 or a Q400/CRJ/E175. No bucks - no Buck Rogers. If you cannot attract or retain pilots/training pilots then your metal sits idle.

Should be an interesting negotiation.

[cdnavater]

Wages need to match at least porter to stay competitive within the market but I feel we will be lucky to get a 10% increase in this offer. If it's garbage deal we need to be like our brothers and sisters at AC and vote no.

Starting pay min 65k (ATPL). Probationary pay lasts just 1 year. TBH - don’t really care what they pay non-ATPL as they should not be hiring non-ATPL pilots. Every pilot hired should be upgradeable within 12 months.

CA year 1 $100k.

FO pay grid 66.67% of CA.

Rest of pay grid should get immediate min 10% uplift followed by January 01 COLA increases thereafter (2024) based on an independent inflationary scale (government of Canada?). Training pilot compensation (override) needs to increase by 50%.

Top scale CA by 12 years of service.

Sure, that is a wish list. But one needs to reasonably estimate what level of compensation will attract/retain qualified pilots to your operation vs all of the other opportunities. Same for inducing pilots in to the training dept.

It doesn’t matter if it is a 737 or a Q400/CRJ/E175. No bucks - no Buck Rogers. If you cannot attract or retain pilots/training pilots then your metal sits idle.

Should be an interesting negotiation.

I can’t help but wonder if now is the time that AC makes Chorus an offer to purchase Jazz from them, of course with some type of leasing arrangement for current and future aircraft?

[rudder]

For example:

01 January 2023

CA

1 100
2 105
3 110
4 115
5 120
6 125
7 130
8 135
9 140
10 145
11 150
12 155

FO

1 65
2 70
3 73
4 77
5 80
6 83
7 87
8 90
9 93
10 97

TP 10% override (based on top scale CA rate). CCP A 15% override (based on top scale CA rate). LCP/LTC $36/hr (adjusted for COLA).

The strategy of underpay/flow to AC by year 3 is not working in 2022. Everybody knows what the definition of insanity is. Time to reevaluate. There are way too many alternative opportunities to maintain that AC flow is enough of a golden carrot.

Multimillion dollar assets need qualified pilots to fly them. Those pilots need to be trained. It isn’t rocket science. Living in the past or some outdated paradigm will not meet the commercial schedule in a pilot supply challenged era.

The US has learned this lesson. Canada needs to recognize it is very near the same dynamic.

[cdnavater]

For example:

01 January 2023

CA

1 100
2 105
3 110
4 115
5 120
6 125
7 130
8 135
9 140
10 145
11 150
12 155

FO

1 65
2 70
3 73
4 77
5 80
6 83
7 87
8 90
9 93
10 97

TP 10% override (based on top scale CA rate). CCP A 15% override (based on top scale CA rate). LCP/LTC $36/hr (adjusted for COLA).

The strategy of underpay/flow to AC by year 3 is not working in 2022. Everybody knows what the definition of insanity is. Time to reevaluate. There are way too many alternative opportunities to maintain that AC flow is enough of a golden carrot.

Multimillion dollar assets need qualified pilots to fly them. Those pilots need to be trained. It isn’t rocket science. Living in the past or some outdated paradigm will not meet the commercial schedule in a pilot supply challenged era.

The US has learned this lesson. Canada needs to recognize it is very near the same dynamic.

When you say 10% override for TP, I’m curious do you mean TP goes to top captain plus 10%?
Current language is YOS plus 5% of top Captain, but FO goes to top FO scale plus 5% of top Captain pay regardless of YOS.
If Captain TPs don’t get the same, this override of 5% will do nothing but continue the trend of only FOs applying for the position.
I believe and I welcome someone to correct me but Porter is paying TPs a 25/hr override plus the min credit for a training event is 6.0, this would reduce the max days worked, currently 16.
The current situation in the training department has Captain TPs discussing going back to the line for a better lifestyle, I think your above solution will fall short of attracting experienced pilots to the training department not to mention keeping the ones already there especially on the E175, Porter will still be more attractive if the above ends up being the solution.

[rudder]

I can’t help but wonder if now is the time that AC makes Chorus an offer to purchase Jazz from them, of course with some type of leasing arrangement for current and future aircraft?

This certainly falls within the realm of possibilities. The CHR CPA margin is in the leasing piece (CAC), not the operational piece.

Effectively, the clock would be turned back to 2002/2003 when ACR was still a wholly-owned subsidiary of AC. After CCAA restructuring, Jazz became a subsidiary of ACE which eventually spun it off in an IPO (benefiting the ACE shareholders, not AC).

Not 100% convinced this is the best outcome for long term Jazz staff, but there would be some CBA protections as well as the Canada Labour Code as it pertains to sale of a business and successorship rights.

Pilots love to be in control. But this transaction could occur without any requirement for consent (although there are notice requirements in the Jazz CBA as it pertains to change of control).

Some US carriers have reverted to the subsidiary Express or partial subsidiary Express/partial CPA model. Hard to tell whether one model is superior to another although in the subsidiary case clearly the ability of the Major to control the Express carrier is unfettered. AC might well use this as an opportunity to revert some Jazz infrastructure to the mainline in order to reduce overhead at Jazz. That would put Jazz more akin to the AC/SKV model.

[2112]

Time for meaningful gains, good luck guys. I'm one of those holdout ATPL's sitting in a pretty comfortable 703 job, and although I have the odd wiff of wouldn't it be neat to try 705 I won't budge until I see at least 80k in the right seat (having no 705 time myself). Pie in the sky maybe but the ball is firmly in your court, happy hunting.

[rudder]

When you say 10% override for TP, I’m curious do you mean TP goes to top captain plus 10%?
Current language is YOS plus 5% of top Captain, but FO goes to top FO scale plus 5% of top Captain pay regardless of YOS.
If Captain TPs don’t get the same, this override of 5% will do nothing but continue the trend of only FOs applying for the position.
I believe and I welcome someone to correct me but Porter is paying TPs a 25/hr override plus the min credit for a training event is 6.0, this would reduce the max days worked, currently 16.
The current situation in the training department has Captain TPs discussing going back to the line for a better lifestyle, I think your above solution will fall short of attracting experienced pilots to the training department not to mention keeping the ones already there especially on the E175, Porter will still be more attractive if the above ends up being the solution.

Current plus 5% would become plus 10%. And current plus 10% would become plus 15%. Applies to all TP/ACP (CA and FO). That would equate to either 15.50 or 23.25/hr for ALL of their earned credits per month, not just training credits (they are on 85 credit guarantee). Current TP daily credit is 5.33

A senior ACP at Jazz would be looking at $182k base pay. Porter is not currently offering that as far as I know. If you are a year 5-8 year Jazz ACP, perhaps the Porter offer is better. I have no doubt that as compared to the current Jazz TP compensation, Porter is offering a better deal with more upside over time as base rate increases to $200/hr before training override.

Jazz has the capability to be competitive for TP pay. It just has to be willing to do so. There is no offer that will keep a TP at Jazz that wants to fly a shiny new E2 jet.

[Malfunction]

For example:

01 January 2023

CA

1 100
2 105
3 110
4 115
5 120
6 125
7 130
8 135
9 140
10 145
11 150
12 155

FO

1 65
2 70
3 73
4 77
5 80
6 83
7 87
8 90
9 93
10 97

TP 10% override (based on top scale CA rate). CCP A 15% override (based on top scale CA rate). LCP/LTC $36/hr (adjusted for COLA).

The strategy of underpay/flow to AC by year 3 is not working in 2022. Everybody knows what the definition of insanity is. Time to reevaluate. There are way too many alternative opportunities to maintain that AC flow is enough of a golden carrot.

Multimillion dollar assets need qualified pilots to fly them. Those pilots need to be trained. It isn’t rocket science. Living in the past or some outdated paradigm will not meet the commercial schedule in a pilot supply challenged era.

The US has learned this lesson. Canada needs to recognize it is very near the same dynamic.

This is absolutely reasonable. The company can pay this amount and more and still make healthy profits. Anything less than this is chorus being greedy. We are professionals and it's about danm time we get payed like one.

[hithere]

Jazz management( and AC) need to think outside the box on this round of bargaining. Many US regional carriers are providing POS space travel(from domicile to crew base) -and in some cases hotels before/after their trip- to pilots so they can live where they want. In Canada there are many pilots at other carriers that are choosing not to come to Jazz because they don't want to live in any of our crew bases due to the cost of living there or they don't want to deal with the cost or stress of commuting. The cost of commuting in Canada is outrageous( I see that today the YYZ is raising their AIF again ffs).
At a minimum training pilots should be provided POS travel from domicile to base. Line pilots should either be reimbursed for commuting or provided a stipend. Open a Halifax base( how is it that Porter has one and Jazz does not?) Encore is completely abandoning YHZ in January so that flying has to be picked up by someone.The amount of lost productivity involved in deadheading DH4 Jazz crews from YYZ/YUL to YHZ is shocking.
Give new hires the ability to travel in business class when deadheading if there are seats available. So many other things that don't even cost the company anything but at least treat people with respect and dignity and instantly you will see resumes come in from a demographic that has largely stayed away from Jazz: ATPL rated pilots that are willing and able to come to Jazz and quickly upgrade and maybe even stay a while, because they are treated with respect and valued by their employer.
And yeah, raises across the board too

[Aspiredtofly]

Fellow Pilots,



The Company has just released MEMO 2022-345. In summary, Air Canada is planning to immediately restart hiring Jazz Pilots. This does not give Air Canada a “let” from the annual 60% requirement. We will be monitoring for compliance and enforcing our Collective Agreement as required.



For months we have reiterated a consistent message. The Company is under pressure to (1) recruit Pilots; (2) train Pilots at the rate of flow/attrition/retirements; and (3) retain Pilots from departing the Air Canada network. We will not negotiate anything that relieves the Company’s operational pressure without broad and all-encompassing discussions on compensation. The MEC has unanimously held this line despite pressure from the Company and even some members. For example, we have declined requests to pay targeted 2x overtime. We have also declined three separate requests over the past several months to enhance Training Pilot and Line Indoc compensation. We also watched as Air Canada attempted to circumvent our Collective Bargaining processes and fix many of the Company’s problems. I commend the MEC, your Status Representatives, for their patience and for holding firm against very strong pressure to cave early and make mediocre deals.



In this spirit, I am encouraged to report that the Company has approached us to schedule dates for formal in-person negotiations. The Company’s goal is to attract Pilots into the training department so they can train fast enough to maintain 60% flow. They recognize that total compensation for all Pilots will be part of this discussion. We have been clear that we will not bring an agreement to membership which does not contain meaningful gains. I’ve called in the Negotiating Committee to Toronto to engage with the Company starting on the week of October 24.



I am looking forward to working on this opportunity, as the MEC stands unified on the goals. The MEC understands that many people want answers and information as soon as possible or want day-to-day updates. We do not share details of negotiations or proposals while discussions are underway – this negotiation will be no exception. Please allow your MEC and Negotiating Committee time to do this work. You can expect us to keep you informed about important developments.



In unity,



Claude

Does this also improve the situation of wawcons within the company?

[cdnavater]

When you say 10% override for TP, I’m curious do you mean TP goes to top captain plus 10%?
Current language is YOS plus 5% of top Captain, but FO goes to top FO scale plus 5% of top Captain pay regardless of YOS.
If Captain TPs don’t get the same, this override of 5% will do nothing but continue the trend of only FOs applying for the position.
I believe and I welcome someone to correct me but Porter is paying TPs a 25/hr override plus the min credit for a training event is 6.0, this would reduce the max days worked, currently 16.
The current situation in the training department has Captain TPs discussing going back to the line for a better lifestyle, I think your above solution will fall short of attracting experienced pilots to the training department not to mention keeping the ones already there especially on the E175, Porter will still be more attractive if the above ends up being the solution.

Current plus 5% would become plus 10%. And current plus 10% would become plus 15%. Applies to all TP/ACP (CA and FO). That would equate to either 15.50 or 23.25/hr for ALL of their earned credits per month, not just training credits (they are on 85 credit guarantee). Current TP daily credit is 5.33

A senior ACP at Jazz would be looking at $182k base pay. Porter is not currently offering that as far as I know. If you are a year 5-8 year Jazz ACP, perhaps the Porter offer is better. I have no doubt that as compared to the current Jazz TP compensation, Porter is offering a better deal with more upside over time as base rate increases to $200/hr before training override.

Jazz has the capability to be competitive for TP pay. It just has to be willing to do so. There is no offer that will keep a TP at Jazz that wants to fly a shiny new E2 jet.

That was my point, it’s not a significant raise for TPs who are on the fence, it’s an additional 7.50/hr. Now, if you combine that with the top scale going to year 12, that’ll help the guy not quite there but still over the 12 YOS. But, I reiterate an year 2 FO joining the training dept, currently gets a massive uplift but bring less to the table. An FO with no command experience training upgrades is a different experience for the candidates, not in the good way.
Currently,
Year 2 FO TP goes from 45.10/hr to 94.93/hr an increase of 49.83/hr
Year 5 Capt goes from year 3 Capt scale 91.79/hr to 98.82 a difference of 3.89/hr
Your proposed scale
Year 2 FO 70/hr to 97+15.50= 112.50 an increase of 42.50/hr
Year 5 Capt on YOS 3 scale 110/hr to 125.50 bringing the pay gap to 12.50/hr but still a significant windfall for the FOs who join.
I propose a straight 25/hr to your YOS for TPs, the job is the same regardless of status a should be reflected, I would even argue an FO joining should receive less of an uplift, unless you’ve previously held a Captain position in the company.
A straight 37.50/hr for ACP
Same for LTC 25/hr for Indoc and 37.50/hr for checking.
The min credit to 5.5 would make max days worked 15 for trainers, that would be a good start.
I think this would keep the shiny jet syndrome in check somewhat, maybe attract some of the more experienced pilots to the training department, the ones who plan on staying anyhow.

[cdnavater]

Jazz management( and AC) need to think outside the box on this round of bargaining. Many US regional carriers are providing POS space travel(from domicile to crew base) -and in some cases hotels before/after their trip- to pilots so they can live where they want. In Canada there are many pilots at other carriers that are choosing not to come to Jazz because they don't want to live in any of our crew bases due to the cost of living there or they don't want to deal with the cost or stress of commuting. The cost of commuting in Canada is outrageous( I see that today the YYZ is raising their AIF again ffs).
At a minimum training pilots should be provided POS travel from domicile to base. Line pilots should either be reimbursed for commuting or provided a stipend. Open a Halifax base( how is it that Porter has one and Jazz does not?) Encore is completely abandoning YHZ in January so that flying has to be picked up by someone.The amount of lost productivity involved in deadheading DH4 Jazz crews from YYZ/YUL to YHZ is shocking.
Give new hires the ability to travel in business class when deadheading if there are seats available. So many other things that don't even cost the company anything but at least treat people with respect and dignity and instantly you will see resumes come in from a demographic that has largely stayed away from Jazz: ATPL rated pilots that are willing and able to come to Jazz and quickly upgrade and maybe even stay a while, because they are treated with respect and valued by their employer.
And yeah, raises across the board too

This too!

[swervin]

Rudder,

For the amount of extra work an ACP puts in, 15% is not nearly enough. TP pay needs to go to 6.5 hours a day. That is the average time spent in the sim now.

[Aspiredtofly]

Some important thing that I'll like to point on. Why is it that the company sets bar for COLA increases on their basis in contract negotiations and why not by looking at what the inflation rate has risen upto every year. New pilots have technically been on a struggle to manage their income with the current contract, and aggravating them a 1-2% yearly increase without considering the 5-12% inflation rate is just not the answer to every problem they are looking for. If they want to keep their planes running then significant improvements in wawcons must be administered and accomplished immediately. How can they expect to train and attract qualified candidates when they can't afford to pay them well in the same place. This time for better gains good luck guys

[Loon-A-Tic]

I'd bet that AC wishes they hadn't shuttered SKV now. I feel some Pivoting about to happen, apparently the Domician Republic is a great layover.

[rudder]

Rudder,

For the amount of extra work an ACP puts in, 15% is not nearly enough. TP pay needs to go to 6.5 hours a day. That is the average time spent in the sim now.

Current system - ACP 10% on all credits and 85 hour min monthly guarantee. If that rose to 15% based on shortened and revised top scale it would be approximately an extra $24000 annually. Not a kings ransom, but better than current ACP compensation. TP generally have more control over their schedule (days off and vacation) than they would have as a line pilot within seniority. After 8 years of service it is 6 weeks of biddable vacation (4 VAC and 2 STAT). And even though it is not everybody’s cup of tea, there are nearly unlimited training related overtime opportunities for TP paid at the enhanced hourly rate and enhanced daily credit. $200k+ is not an unusual T4 for TP. If Porter is simply paying a daily training override (like SKV) it might equal nearly the same incremental training related compensation. I am not saying that is good enough, but it would put Jazz on an equal footing with Porter when competing for ACP.

If Jazz does not migrate to a more competitive ACP compensation model, it will continue to lose ACP. And both TP and LCP/LTC compensation will have to increase to stimulate subscription (notwithstanding the very generous system for FO TP compensation).

[rudder]

That was my point, it’s not a significant raise for TPs who are on the fence, it’s an additional 7.50/hr. Now, if you combine that with the top scale going to year 12, that’ll help the guy not quite there but still over the 12 YOS. But, I reiterate an year 2 FO joining the training dept, currently gets a massive uplift but bring less to the table. An FO with no command experience training upgrades is a different experience for the candidates, not in the good way.
Currently,
Year 2 FO TP goes from 45.10/hr to 94.93/hr an increase of 49.83/hr
Year 5 Capt goes from year 3 Capt scale 91.79/hr to 98.82 a difference of 3.89/hr
Your proposed scale
Year 2 FO 70/hr to 97+15.50= 112.50 an increase of 42.50/hr
Year 5 Capt on YOS 3 scale 110/hr to 125.50 bringing the pay gap to 12.50/hr but still a significant windfall for the FOs who join.
I propose a straight 25/hr to your YOS for TPs, the job is the same regardless of status a should be reflected, I would even argue an FO joining should receive less of an uplift, unless you’ve previously held a Captain position in the company.
A straight 37.50/hr for ACP
Same for LTC 25/hr for Indoc and 37.50/hr for checking.
The min credit to 5.5 would make max days worked 15 for trainers, that would be a good start.
I think this would keep the shiny jet syndrome in check somewhat, maybe attract some of the more experienced pilots to the training department, the ones who plan on staying anyhow.

See my post above.

Or Plan B:

ACP - $2000/month override. 5.5/training event. Regular hourly rate. Regular blocking window.

TP - $1500/month override. 5.5/training event. Regular hourly rate. Regular blocking window.

LCP/LTC - $36/hr override for line training and line check duty periods.

All $$ amounts increase by COLA in the CBA.