Negotiations

[Rowdy]

1/2 of the YVR Q400 list will be gone by years end. A significant number of retirements. Lateral moves already happening to lynx, flair and c-jet and all the FO's who qualify going to AC.

Gonna be interesting for sure.

[Malfunction]

Unfortunately Jazz dosnt care about FO's leaving. They barely care about Cpts. Don't care enough to keep them. Or this was always the plan

[co-joe]

...How much fuel is wasted waiting for gates in YYZ or taxing for departure on 05 every day while they never depart off the 06’s anymore? ...

I feel like YYZ did that on purpose so they would never have to let us fly the RNP approaches that Navcanada put on 05/23. Can't use those if that runway is in use for departures...

[Rowdy]

Unfortunately Jazz dosnt care about FO's leaving. They barely care about Cpts. Don't care enough to keep them. Or this was always the plan

I'm talking Captains.

The bulk of the FO's don't have their AA's and those that do are off to AC.

[rudder]

Unfortunately Jazz dosnt care about FO's leaving. They barely care about Cpts. Don't care enough to keep them. Or this was always the plan

I'm talking Captains.

The bulk of the FO's don't have their AA's and those that do are off to AC.

2023 will likely be an epic attrition year forJazz. There are so many alternative employer options. AC flow uncertainty and industry low entry level pay are not effective recruitment tools.

And while in the past Jazz has been able to upgrade and add new-hires at a rate of up to 500 in a calendar year, there are significant impediments to accomplishing the same task in 2023 (mostly finite training resources with TP attrition and new-hire applicant volume and experience level).

Jazz will get smaller. How much smaller and how quickly remains TBD.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Good news however, I understand from friends on the "inside" if you can hold out to retirement the "gift" of a new watch has been restored due to popular demand.

[Malfunction]

Good news however, I understand from friends on the "inside" if you can hold out to retirement the "gift" of a new watch has been restored due to popular demand.

And I was looking forward to the toaster

[IMnado]

I think the Q400 does a good fast job, and the EMB provides more of a "passenger experience" than going from the door to the steep air stairs. There's a lot of computation at play.

[Man_in_the_sky]

So many new hires on the B scale, good thing the next generation got fucked over, they could catch up on that cheap watch!

[rudder]

I think the Q400 does a good fast job, and the EMB provides more of a "passenger experience" than going from the door to the steep air stairs. There's a lot of computation at play.

End state fleet at Express should be a combination of newer E-jets, and Q400’s. Unfortunately, I am certain that there are corners of the AC universe that would prefer to see Jazz back to props only (just like scope under the ACPA year Y2K contract).

[Last Flight Out]

Bottom line is Jazz is not the company it once was. At one time this was an Airline people were quite happy and proud to come and make a Career of it. No longer, let's face it we are now probably the least attractive regional airline in the country. Clearly management is working with AC to reduce the fleet size. Most likely down to the 2025 minimum CPA terms of 80 aircraft. Its just happening sooner than expected. Pilot attrition is working in the companies favour. The company knows how many pilots they will need to staff 80 aircraft. They have a good idea on the core number of pilots that are staying and who won't, I would guess most Captains on the top 1/2 to 2/3 of all types will be staying. As well they know who holds an ATPL in the right seat and who doesn't. Those with an ATPL have already been written off as leaving. The First Officers who have ATPL's will all be off to AC soon enough (they will be easily replaced with low time non ATPL rated pilots) then we will be left with the non ATPL rated pilots who can't go anywhere else and the rampant rate of pilot attrition at Jazz will cease. Attrition will trickle down to retirements and a few who will move on to try something else. We had the opportunity to stand up to AC when we signed up for a labour contract until 2035. We SCREWED ourselves and we have only ourselves to blame for the position we find ourselves in. So let's stop all the whining bitching and crying. If your unhappy leave if your ok here then stay. If your sticking around waiting for the Company and ALPA to come to some grand agreement that will see a significant increase in wages and improvements in working conditions, well I am afraid your going to be very disappointed.

[rudder]

Bottom line is Jazz is not the company it once was. At one time this was an Airline people were quite happy and proud to come and make a Career of it. No longer, let's face it we are now probably the least attractive regional airline in the country. Clearly management is working with AC to reduce the fleet size. Most likely down to the 2025 minimum CPA terms of 80 aircraft. Its just happening sooner than expected. Pilot attrition is working in the companies favour. The company knows how many pilots they will need to staff 80 aircraft. They have a good idea on the core number of pilots that are staying and who won't, I would guess most Captains on the top 1/2 to 2/3 of all types will be staying. As well they know who holds an ATPL in the right seat and who doesn't. Those with an ATPL have already been written off as leaving. The First Officers who have ATPL's will all be off to AC soon enough (they will be easily replaced with low time non ATPL rated pilots) then we will be left with the non ATPL rated pilots who can't go anywhere else and the rampant rate of pilot attrition at Jazz will cease. Attrition will trickle down to retirements and a few who will move on to try something else. We had the opportunity to stand up to AC when we signed up for a labour contract until 2035. We SCREWED ourselves and we have only ourselves to blame for the position we find ourselves in. So let's stop all the whining bitching and crying. If your unhappy leave if your ok here then stay. If your sticking around waiting for the Company and ALPA to come to some grand agreement that will see a significant increase in wages and improvements in working conditions, well I am afraid your going to be very disappointed.

Based on empirical evidence (facts and actuality not rumours nor wishful thinking) your prognostication is probably reasonably accurate. 2023 will see many alternative paths available to pilots, even those that have minimal experience.

Everybody from #1-#1500 should be planning accordingly.

[truedude]

Bottom line is Jazz is not the company it once was. At one time this was an Airline people were quite happy and proud to come and make a Career of it. No longer, let's face it we are now probably the least attractive regional airline in the country. Clearly management is working with AC to reduce the fleet size. Most likely down to the 2025 minimum CPA terms of 80 aircraft. Its just happening sooner than expected. Pilot attrition is working in the companies favour. The company knows how many pilots they will need to staff 80 aircraft. They have a good idea on the core number of pilots that are staying and who won't, I would guess most Captains on the top 1/2 to 2/3 of all types will be staying. As well they know who holds an ATPL in the right seat and who doesn't. Those with an ATPL have already been written off as leaving. The First Officers who have ATPL's will all be off to AC soon enough (they will be easily replaced with low time non ATPL rated pilots) then we will be left with the non ATPL rated pilots who can't go anywhere else and the rampant rate of pilot attrition at Jazz will cease. Attrition will trickle down to retirements and a few who will move on to try something else. We had the opportunity to stand up to AC when we signed up for a labour contract until 2035. We SCREWED ourselves and we have only ourselves to blame for the position we find ourselves in. So let's stop all the whining bitching and crying. If your unhappy leave if your ok here then stay. If your sticking around waiting for the Company and ALPA to come to some grand agreement that will see a significant increase in wages and improvements in working conditions, well I am afraid your going to be very disappointed.

Based on empirical evidence (facts and actuality not rumours nor wishful thinking) your prognostication is probably reasonably accurate. 2023 will see many alternative paths available to pilots, even those that have minimal experience.

Everybody from #1-#1500 should be planning accordingly.

I don't think any of what we are seeing is going according to any master plan. The only thing I think the plan involved was "don't pay pilots more money." They have never faced this situation in Canada in the last forty years. And with all the talk of a possible recession this year, that just made them double down on that strategy. But the wicked loss of market share and route structure they have been forced to "strategically" give up, while essentially serving as a hiring pool for their competition shows a complete lack of foresight.

There is not master plan to shrink their regional network to 80 planes, except ensuring in 2025 they could create another regional airline like SkyRegional, so they could beat us with it should we ask for more money. The only thing they failed to consider is that there would be a pilot shortage. They used old world thinking, and are now unsure of what to do.

But it isn't to unlike what happened in the U.S. Initially, they resisted paying more, in favor of hiring bonuses. Then people would jump ship to collect hiring bonuses, so they then offered retention bonuses. Eventually that wasn't working either, so they decided to simply pay more. But Canadian companies are watching this going, "We can't let that happen here." Aside from that, I don't see a lot of actually thinking taking place.

The new paradigm in Canadian aviation, and likely globally quite soon ,will be, whomever can staff their planes, will stay in business. Those who can't, won't. It is winter in Canada, and we are historically rather dense and slow to learn. But I have faith they will figure it out. They just need to exhaust every other option first.

[Last Flight Out]

I hope you are right and that I am just being overly pessimistic.

[rudder]

I hope you are right and that I am just being overly pessimistic.

It isn’t about pessimism, it is about logistics and demographics.

Jazz is attriting pilots at a historic rate to more carriers than in the past. AC used to represent the highest attrition destination. It still is. But now Jazz pilots can exit for Porter, WJ, Sunwing, Transat, Flair, Morningstar, Cargojet, and others and still end up at AC if it is their ultimate goal with a solid underlying job at reasonable pay while they wait for the AC call.

Meanwhile, these pilots need to be replaced (assuming Jazz does not shrink). Jazz offers below industry standard entry level compensation that lasts for several years. A Jazz pilot is pigeonholed in the queue for AC hiring in a system that is proving unreliable. The result is challenges in attracting experienced pilots. Inexperienced pilots will not be upgradeable for a longer period of time.

If somebody sees this as a sustainable situation, I would welcome hearing the underlying rationale.

So for now, Jazz operates less block hours than originally planned. And that will likely continue unless and until a comprehensive solution is reached that:

1. Increases pilot pay at Jazz (recruitment and retention)
2. Codifies a predictable, reliable, and enforceable multilateral agreement offering flow to AC (career progression)
3. Guarantees fleet, fleet utilization, and block hours (job security)

Right now, none of these things exist or if they do it is only on paper and are seemingly unenforceable.

[rooster]

1/2 of the YVR Q400 list will be gone by years end. A significant number of retirements. Lateral moves already happening to lynx, flair and c-jet and all the FO's who qualify going to AC.

Gonna be interesting for sure.

Lateral move??? LOL. How do you figure? any of the FO's are moving up in pay, equipment and QOL. Capts may be able to go DEC and will do exactly the same thing. Especially at Flair. Lynx is still in infancy. Lateral is Jazz to Encore or Porter.

[canadian_aviator_4]

How is jazz to encore lateral? Encore pilots are all making quite a bit more. At this point the only lateral move from jazz is porter q400.

[averageatbest]

How is jazz to encore lateral? Encore pilots are all making quite a bit more. At this point the only lateral move from jazz is porter q400.

Many first officers are taking home under $2400 per month.

The "lump sum payments" that the company dangled and then signed to have still yet to be paid out.

Encore is a step down from Jazz.

[canadian_aviator_4]

[quote=canadian_aviator_4 post_id=<a href="tel:1239251">1239251</a> time=<a href="tel:1676341252">1676341252</a> user_id=90444]
How is jazz to encore lateral? Encore pilots are all making quite a bit more. At this point the only lateral move from jazz is porter q400.

Many first officers are taking home under $2400 per month.

The "lump sum payments" that the company dangled and then signed to have still yet to be paid out.

Encore is a step down from Jazz.
[/quote]

Almost all first officers at jazz are taking home less than $2400/month. Probably less with hour reductions in certain bases.

[Man_in_the_sky]

[quote=canadian_aviator_4 post_id=<a href="tel:1239251">1239251</a> time=<a href="tel:1676341252">1676341252</a> user_id=90444]
How is jazz to encore lateral? Encore pilots are all making quite a bit more. At this point the only lateral move from jazz is porter q400.

Many first officers are taking home under $2400 per month.

The "lump sum payments" that the company dangled and then signed to have still yet to be paid out.

Encore is a step down from Jazz.

Almost all first officers at jazz are taking home less than $2400/month. Probably less with hour reductions in certain bases.
[/quote]

Man 2400 per month would be a blast ! Year 4 FO can barely hit 2000 without OT!