Working Abroad is the Only Way I can Justify A Career as a Pilot.

[BDP1337]

I've done a fair amount of research on what it takes to be a commercial pilot, and I've taken a discovery flight as well. I can confidently say this career interests me, and I'm ready to begin flight school. However, when considering the long term, there is no reasonable way I can justify having this career in Canada.

I am convinced the cost, time, and sacrifices required for a good position in this industry are not worth the salary you end up making. Having a stable family and affording a mortgage (considering best and worst case scenarios) doesn't seem manageable either. Of course both of these depends on the current cost of living, economic/industry outlook, etc, But can anyone confidently say that in the 8-10 years it takes to go from 0 hours to an 80k per year CAD, our salaries will start to match inflation and things will somehow become more manageable?

All sorts of young people from different paths of life are facing issues similar to what I've put forward. But for many careers, including commercial aviation, there are far better opportunities internationally. Transitioning from Canada to the US or EU can be manageable for Canadian pilots. This is something I would be interested in. In my case, getting EU residency will be far easier than US.

I'm aware this is easier said than done. As far as I know, I would have to rack up good PIC time, get ATPL licensing, be approved for EU residency (will not need an employment offer), and complete an EASA conversion course.

For all the Canadian born pilots currently employed internationally...

How long were you employed in Canada before you transitioned?

Aside from language barriers and gaining work rights, what is the biggest challenge you have faced?

What is one thing you wish you knew before making the move?

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. Maybe I've let pilots who made bad decisions tarnish my vision of the career in this country. Who knows. Regardless, I appreciate any input!

[Meatservo]

I'm always happy to hear someone give up early. Aviation is one of those jobs that are sort of a passion project, like sailing or woodworking, or the military. I leave it to the baying hyenas of this forum to debate wether it deserves that status anymore. I have always had a salary that covers a moderate middle-class lifestyle pretty well, including a mortgage, but the fact is that there are plenty of young folk who take a superficial glance and reckon that they ought to be eligible for a doctor or lawyer's salary and a spiffy uniform after phoning it in for two or three years of college and zero apprenticeship.

Give up! Go do something else!

[BDP1337]

I'm always happy to hear someone give up early. Aviation is one of those jobs that are sort of a passion project, like sailing or woodworking, or the military. I leave it to the baying hyenas of this forum to debate wether it deserves that status anymore. I have always had a salary that covers a moderate middle-class lifestyle pretty well, including a mortgage, but the fact is that there are plenty of young folk who take a superficial glance and reckon that they ought to be eligible for a doctor or lawyer's salary and a spiffy uniform after phoning it in for two or three years of college and zero apprenticeship.

Give up! Go do something else!

Absolutely not! I'm too interested in flying to give up that easy. I fully expect to be compensated for my (lack of) experience for the first few years of employment, no matter where I'm located. Not looking for a silver platter, just looking towards where the best opportunities are.

[eyebrow737]

I that they ought to be eligible for a doctor or lawyer's salary and a spiffy uniform

Give up! Go do something else!

I've been working in this industry for nearly 40 years. Back when I started a seasoned pilot was in the top 2% of salaries"
They were able to support the entire family on one salary easily.

Attitudes like yours who only aspire for mediocrity has, in my opinion, contributed to the downward spiral of this career.

Congratulations

[Ash Ketchum]

It's not so easy to work abroad as a pilot as you often need the right to work in a country (along with licenses and speaking the language) and airlines don't usually sponsor foreign pilots. At least not in the US and EU. If your end goal is money, aviation in Canada is unfortunately not a good way to get it.

[Eric Janson]

I've done a fair amount of research on what it takes to be a commercial pilot, and I've taken a discovery flight as well. I can confidently say this career interests me, and I'm ready to begin flight school. However, when considering the long term, there is no reasonable way I can justify having this career in Canada.

I am convinced the cost, time, and sacrifices required for a good position in this industry are not worth the salary you end up making. Having a stable family and affording a mortgage (considering best and worst case scenarios) doesn't seem manageable either. Of course both of these depends on the current cost of living, economic/industry outlook, etc, But can anyone confidently say that in the 8-10 years it takes to go from 0 hours to an 80k per year CAD, our salaries will start to match inflation and things will somehow become more manageable?

All sorts of young people from different paths of life are facing issues similar to what I've put forward. But for many careers, including commercial aviation, there are far better opportunities internationally. Transitioning from Canada to the US or EU can be manageable for Canadian pilots. This is something I would be interested in. In my case, getting EU residency will be far easier than US.

I'm aware this is easier said than done. As far as I know, I would have to rack up good PIC time, get ATPL licensing, be approved for EU residency (will not need an employment offer), and complete an EASA conversion course.

For all the Canadian born pilots currently employed internationally...

How long were you employed in Canada before you transitioned?

Aside from language barriers and gaining work rights, what is the biggest challenge you have faced?

What is one thing you wish you knew before making the move?

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. Maybe I've let pilots who made bad decisions tarnish my vision of the career in this country. Who knows. Regardless, I appreciate any input!

Doesn't seem like you have spent very much time overseas - or lived outside Canada.

Expat life isn't for everyone - seen a lot of people show up and leave within 6 months. Visiting a country and living there are 2 very different things. Depending on the country you could find yourself in a very different world.

During COVID ALL Expats at my former employer were laid off - for a lot of people it meant the end of their career. Nobody has been re-hired.

Becoming an Expat is sometimes a one-way street. Not everyone wants to start over at the bottom of a seniority list. I certainly don't.

I've met very few Expats who were Expats by choice - most came from bankrupt airlines in various parts of the world.

Residency/Licence conversion is not as simple as you seem to think it is. In a lot of places it's impossible without a company sponsoring you.

As for the Expat job market - it is very limited at the moment. One job website only has 57 jobs (that used to be 2-300 listings) - about half are for Instructors.

As for bad decisions - we can all be victims of circumstances beyond our control. There is no such thing as a stable job in this business - doesn't matter who you work for. I've been through 3 Bankruptcies a 'Red Alert' and a contract that was ended from one day to the next with no reason given. In each case it meant the same thing - pick up the pieces and move on.

As for money - that's the wrong thing to look at imho. I've seen lots of Expats who jump from job to job chasing money - to each his own.

I don't make the highest salary - I do get to do some very interesting flying. I also kept my job and salary during COVID.

All the above is based on my experiences - currently in year 31 of living outside Canada.

[prop2jet]

This career is not always about flying the heavy metal. There are many paths you can follow. I will say that if this is a career you want to pursue then be prepared because it can be somewhat of a roller coaster ride. So much seems to also depend on timing. Start at the right time and you might coast through your career path without too much trouble. Start at the wrong time and you can expect a bumpy ride so to speak. I would not get into this career with the mindset of working overseas. I briefly went overseas and it was not my first choice and I got back here as soon as an opportunity presented itself. Most of my expat friends ended up back here after Covid.

As long as there are bodies showing up willing to work for nothing.... the carriers will be all too happy to pay nothing. I expect there will be some improvement in compensation. The question is how much.

[digits_]

I am convinced the cost, time, and sacrifices required for a good position in this industry are not worth the salary you end up making. Having a stable family and affording a mortgage (considering best and worst case scenarios) doesn't seem manageable either. Of course both of these depends on the current cost of living, economic/industry outlook, etc, But can anyone confidently say that in the 8-10 years it takes to go from 0 hours to an 80k per year CAD, our salaries will start to match inflation and things will somehow become more manageable?

All sorts of young people from different paths of life are facing issues similar to what I've put forward. But for many careers, including commercial aviation, there are far better opportunities internationally. Transitioning from Canada to the US or EU can be manageable for Canadian pilots. This is something I would be interested in. In my case, getting EU residency will be far easier than US.

I'm aware this is easier said than done. As far as I know, I would have to rack up good PIC time, get ATPL licensing, be approved for EU residency (will not need an employment offer), and complete an EASA conversion course.

Questions like these are meaningless in absolute terms. You have to compare it to other careers which you would realistically be able to achieve.

Money wise, the classic careers people compare a pilot career to are lawyers, doctors, engineers etc. Do you think you have the capabilities to be good at any of those? If not, there's no point looking at them.

You talked about quality of life and salary. A fair amount of higher paying jobs have quality of life issues as well. Very few nurses and doctors working in Northern community are there by choice. Just like medevac pilots, they work up there to get experience or wait for a spot to open up to work where they actually want to work.

Working in the EU? Sure, theoretically it might be possible, but you'll likely work more days than a Canadian pilot. It's also not just a matter of getting experience and showing up. You better speak the local language during the interview process as well to have a realistic chance. There might be exceptions for 20k airline pilots, but it sounds like you want to jump ship asap, so better get to studying all those languages!
Just like in Canada, these pilots also deal with the 'stable family' issue. Being away from home for many days a month does put strain on most family relationships. Some make it work, others don't. But moving to another country will not fix this part of your question.


Sometimes, the only way to win the game of aviation, is by not playing.

Find one of the higher paying jobs, buy a plane and fly for fun. You'll likely be happier. There will always be the 'what if', but no matter what you do, you'll always have those.

[Ash Ketchum]

I've done a fair amount of research on what it takes to be a commercial pilot, and I've taken a discovery flight as well. I can confidently say this career interests me, and I'm ready to begin flight school. However, when considering the long term, there is no reasonable way I can justify having this career in Canada.

I am convinced the cost, time, and sacrifices required for a good position in this industry are not worth the salary you end up making. Having a stable family and affording a mortgage (considering best and worst case scenarios) doesn't seem manageable either. Of course both of these depends on the current cost of living, economic/industry outlook, etc, But can anyone confidently say that in the 8-10 years it takes to go from 0 hours to an 80k per year CAD, our salaries will start to match inflation and things will somehow become more manageable?

All sorts of young people from different paths of life are facing issues similar to what I've put forward. But for many careers, including commercial aviation, there are far better opportunities internationally. Transitioning from Canada to the US or EU can be manageable for Canadian pilots. This is something I would be interested in. In my case, getting EU residency will be far easier than US.

I'm aware this is easier said than done. As far as I know, I would have to rack up good PIC time, get ATPL licensing, be approved for EU residency (will not need an employment offer), and complete an EASA conversion course.

For all the Canadian born pilots currently employed internationally...

How long were you employed in Canada before you transitioned?

Aside from language barriers and gaining work rights, what is the biggest challenge you have faced?

What is one thing you wish you knew before making the move?

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. Maybe I've let pilots who made bad decisions tarnish my vision of the career in this country. Who knows. Regardless, I appreciate any input!

Doesn't seem like you have spent very much time overseas - or lived outside Canada.

Expat life isn't for everyone - seen a lot of people show up and leave within 6 months. Visiting a country and living there are 2 very different things. Depending on the country you could find yourself in a very different world.

During COVID ALL Expats at my former employer were laid off - for a lot of people it meant the end of their career. Nobody has been re-hired.

Becoming an Expat is sometimes a one-way street. Not everyone wants to start over at the bottom of a seniority list. I certainly don't.

I've met very few Expats who were Expats by choice - most came from bankrupt airlines in various parts of the world.

Residency/Licence conversion is not as simple as you seem to think it is. In a lot of places it's impossible without a company sponsoring you.

As for the Expat job market - it is very limited at the moment. One job website only has 57 jobs (that used to be 2-300 listings) - about half are for Instructors.

As for bad decisions - we can all be victims of circumstances beyond our control. There is no such thing as a stable job in this business - doesn't matter who you work for. I've been through 3 Bankruptcies a 'Red Alert' and a contract that was ended from one day to the next with no reason given. In each case it meant the same thing - pick up the pieces and move on.

As for money - that's the wrong thing to look at imho. I've seen lots of Expats who jump from job to job chasing money - to each his own.

I don't make the highest salary - I do get to do some very interesting flying. I also kept my job and salary during COVID.

All the above is based on my experiences - currently in year 31 of living outside Canada.

Which websites/agencies would you recommend for a Canadian airline pilot looking for expat opportunities? I am desperate to leave Canada as I can no longer support my family on the wages here.

[porcsord]

Which websites/agencies would you recommend for a Canadian airline pilot looking for expat opportunities? I am desperate to leave Canada as I can no longer support my family on the wages here.

Have you considered not flying for an airline. Myself and several colleagues are in the 120-150 range flying king airs.... is it air canada Skipper wages? No. But it's a comfortable living, I'm home every night and I have more free time than I know what to do with.

[Bede]

Which websites/agencies would you recommend for a Canadian airline pilot looking for expat opportunities? I am desperate to leave Canada as I can no longer support my family on the wages here.

Not trying to be a jerk, but if you can't support your family here, it's unlikely that you will be able to support your family on an expat wage. Very few people earn more money but keep the same lifestyle, so they come out ahead.

[Needswork2020]

I left Canada at 3500hrs or so to be a Expat. I have earned multiples of the salary that could ever be earned in Canada.
I am married to a non-Canadian, I have dined inside the pyramids in Giza, been 'married' in a ceremony in Angkor Wat Cambodia, lived from Europe to Middle East to Asia. It's been a total win.

True, all expats got their ass's handed to them in Covid, but I was also paid out 6 months salary at 20K Canadian a month.. Tax free.

I have since worked in Canada and chosen to go back overseas. I write this tonight from Asia where the monsoons have half the country underwater.

There is no right answer; it's like picking a wife. What is your dream is not someone else's.

I will say that anyone who stays in Canada for the ridiculous salaries is doing themselves a financial disservice but if it works for your family, your wife has a great job? Awesome. I was offered a corporate jet job in Southern Ontario, signed the paperwork and quit the same day after my wife and I looked at the town/ company. It didn't work for us. I am sure there are a 1000 guys that might love that gig.

My wife doesn't work, handles our social calendar and raised the kids in a traditional situation.

If you're asking is money the only way? It's not. I know many happy Canadian married pilots living and raising kids back home. My kids were born overseas.

After 2 years of Covid and all the Canadian BulSht rules, I was salivating to get back.

I tried the Frontier thing, but even before that fell through had another job here.

-- I know what I want. It's to never see snow, live within 10 km of a beach, and to have an interesting well read circle of friends from diverse backgrounds.

Work out what you want and go from there.

[Needswork2020]

Which websites/agencies would you recommend for a Canadian airline pilot looking for expat opportunities? I am desperate to leave Canada as I can no longer support my family on the wages here.

Not trying to be a jerk, but if you can't support your family here, it's unlikely that you will be able to support your family on an expat wage. Very few people earn more money but keep the same lifestyle, so they come out ahead.

THIS!!

There are King Air jobs paying more that A320 Skippers. There are corporate gigs, firefighting.. whatever. Tell AC to get stuffed and make it for for you.

[thepoors]

First off, don't let all the pathetic old boomers on here discourage you. They feed off "back in my day" delusions and think everyone has to suffer in this career path or they aren't worthy. Not to mention these stupid notions that aviation is a career of "passion for flying" and you have to do "anything it takes" to make it.
Very quickly you can begin to understand how these attitudes have led to wages and working conditions here that are utter garbage compared to the US and EU.

You are correct in a lot of what you are saying, and it can seem very daunting as someone just starting down this path. But this is a job like any other - you need commitment to be successful. I've never treated my flying career as anything more than a job. It's a job I enjoy but it's also not something I'm going to give up everything else I want in life for. As a few others have mentioned there are many paths beyond student>flight instructor>regionals>mainline. And many of them are high paying with arguably better quality of life.

Now, if you are intent on going abroad (which I honestly say good for you) there are many difficulties as well. Converting a Canadian license to FAA is very simple and straightforward but getting right to work in the US is not. There are rumblings that this might be changing, but at the moment it's basically impossible for anyone that doesn't have tons of flying experience already.

For Europe, there is no license conversion as far as I know - you are required to study for and write all the EASA exams like any new student pilot. There are many of them and they make TC exams look like kindergarten stuff. I have an EU passport and that licensing process alone has deterred me from pursuing it.

Anyway, I hope that if you really want this as a career you will be able to find the right path for you. Be it here or abroad.

[twa22]

Which websites/agencies would you recommend for a Canadian airline pilot looking for expat opportunities? I am desperate to leave Canada as I can no longer support my family on the wages here.

Not trying to be a jerk, but if you can't support your family here, it's unlikely that you will be able to support your family on an expat wage. Very few people earn more money but keep the same lifestyle, so they come out ahead.

There is definitely truth in what you're saying, but I don't think that's quite fair to say without knowing the individuals circumstances... I have expat friends who made it work very well, then I know some who didn't do so well. Pros and cons to flying here versus as an expat, but we all know this. There are so many variables to take into consideration

[Bede]

There is definitely truth in what you're saying, but I don't think that's quite fair to say without knowing the individuals circumstances...

True, but can't think of a single middle-upper class person who struggles with the bills and gets a pay raise and no longer struggles (I'm not taking about poor people). For some reason, I know people who make ends meet on less than $100k and raise many kids and others who can't make ends meet and make $250k and have no kids to provide for.

[‘Bob’]

I that they ought to be eligible for a doctor or lawyer's salary and a spiffy uniform

Give up! Go do something else!

I've been working in this industry for nearly 40 years. Back when I started a seasoned pilot was in the top 2% of salaries"
They were able to support the entire family on one salary easily.

Attitudes like yours who only aspire for mediocrity has, in my opinion, contributed to the downward spiral of this career.

Congratulations

I can support my family on my salary. I don’t work for an a major airline, either.

I think that you are forgetting an important thing. You are one of the survivors of that era. A lot of people flying today simply would not have made the cut even 20 years ago.

And the same thing is driving wages overseas. In Europe and Asia, you need to be rich or go through highly competitive military or cadet programs because there is no GA sector to draw from. In the USA, the 1500 hour rule is drowning puppies as fast as they can be produced by flight schools.

Lament Canada’s wages. They can definitely be better. But it’s part of the system that makes being a professional pilot this country likely one of the easiest in the world.

[twa22]

There is definitely truth in what you're saying, but I don't think that's quite fair to say without knowing the individuals circumstances...

True, but can't think of a single middle-upper class person who struggles with the bills and gets a pay raise and no longer struggles (I'm not taking about poor people). For some reason, I know people who make ends meet on less than $100k and raise many kids and others who can't make ends meet and make $250k and have no kids to provide for.

If you're trying to tell me that a family who makes 100k a year combined will not be better off making 150k, then I don't know what people you know other then people who clearly don't know how to manage their money... I know theirs a lot of people like that in society, but let's not suggest that it's everyone

[Bede]

I never said that they won’t be better off. I said that they will still struggle to pay the bills. The bigger pay cheque comes and you buy a bigger house, nicer car, take an extra vacation. At the end of the month people generally still have the same surplus or deficit.

[Ash Ketchum]

I am a regional captain with a stay at home wife, few kids and mortgage near YYZ. 90K gross family income doesn't go very far in SW Ontario so I have decided if I can't get a job outside of Canada in the next year I will leave this industry and go back to my previous career where the money was better. No desire to go to AC or any other "major" in Canada and make 60K in the right seat. I did get my FAA ATP but no one will sponsor me state side. I was thinking maybe Emirates but not sure if they are back to hiring.

[Ash Ketchum]

Which websites/agencies would you recommend for a Canadian airline pilot looking for expat opportunities? I am desperate to leave Canada as I can no longer support my family on the wages here.

Have you considered not flying for an airline. Myself and several colleagues are in the 120-150 range flying king airs.... is it air canada Skipper wages? No. But it's a comfortable living, I'm home every night and I have more free time than I know what to do with.

I'm interested. Where are these King Air jobs based? Is it all up north or anything southern? My wife is a city girl so hard to get her to move north of Barrie...

[daedalusx]

I am a regional captain with a stay at home wife, few kids and mortgage near YYZ. 90K gross family income doesn't go very far in SW Ontario so I have decided if I can't get a job outside of Canada in the next year I will leave this industry and go back to my previous career where the money was better. No desire to go to AC or any other "major" in Canada and make 60K in the right seat. I did get my FAA ATP but no one will sponsor me state side. I was thinking maybe Emirates but not sure if they are back to hiring.

Air Wisconsin should sponsor you and they should have direct entry Captain jobs on the CRJ if you have experience on type.

[Ash Ketchum]

I am a regional captain with a stay at home wife, few kids and mortgage near YYZ. 90K gross family income doesn't go very far in SW Ontario so I have decided if I can't get a job outside of Canada in the next year I will leave this industry and go back to my previous career where the money was better. No desire to go to AC or any other "major" in Canada and make 60K in the right seat. I did get my FAA ATP but no one will sponsor me state side. I was thinking maybe Emirates but not sure if they are back to hiring.

Air Wisconsin should sponsor you and they should have direct entry Captain jobs on the CRJ if you have experience on type.

They rejected me when I applied last month. Apparently they are not taking more foreign pilots till 2024. I am on the Embraer so maybe Skywest or something although they aren't sponsoring now . I would still need the 1000 121 SIC to be PIC there.

[twa22]

I am a regional captain with a stay at home wife, few kids and mortgage near YYZ. 90K gross family income doesn't go very far in SW Ontario so I have decided if I can't get a job outside of Canada in the next year I will leave this industry and go back to my previous career where the money was better. No desire to go to AC or any other "major" in Canada and make 60K in the right seat. I did get my FAA ATP but no one will sponsor me state side. I was thinking maybe Emirates but not sure if they are back to hiring.

No it doesn't unfortunately, but to get back on topic. Emirates, Qatar, Singapore Airlines are a few legacy carriers hiring, then there's the likes of Flydubai and Wizz Air Abu Dhabi which as far as I know are continuously hiring. There are many others around the world that are hiring also. Personally, once I have the hour requirements, I plan on leaving as well, and not for the money in my case, but rather to try something different.

I've listed some links below for you and others regarding jobs and where they are posted

https://pilotcareercenter.com/

https://www.flightdeckfriend.com/aviation-jobs/

These 2 are pretty good for listings worldwide

https://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/

This is a good reference link for operators and general info (pay, roster, etc), IF the information is updated. Some of it is recent and some very out of date

https://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/

Lastly, i'm sure you've heard of pprune forums, but if you haven't, go check it out, lots of threads there regarding hiring and info, especially for emirates and qatar... as with everything online and forums, take everything with a grain of salt.

[Ash Ketchum]

I am a regional captain with a stay at home wife, few kids and mortgage near YYZ. 90K gross family income doesn't go very far in SW Ontario so I have decided if I can't get a job outside of Canada in the next year I will leave this industry and go back to my previous career where the money was better. No desire to go to AC or any other "major" in Canada and make 60K in the right seat. I did get my FAA ATP but no one will sponsor me state side. I was thinking maybe Emirates but not sure if they are back to hiring.

No it doesn't unfortunately, but to get back on topic. Emirates, Qatar, Singapore Airlines are a few legacy carriers hiring, then there's the likes of Flydubai and Wizz Air Abu Dhabi which as far as I know are continuously hiring. There are many others around the world that are hiring also. Personally, once I have the hour requirements, I plan on leaving as well, and not for the money in my case, but rather to try something different.

I've listed some links below for you and others regarding jobs and where they are posted

https://pilotcareercenter.com/

https://www.flightdeckfriend.com/aviation-jobs/

These 2 are pretty good for listings worldwide

https://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/

This is a good reference link for operators and general info (pay, roster, etc), IF the information is updated. Some of it is recent and some very out of date

https://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/

Lastly, i'm sure you've heard of pprune forums, but if you haven't, go check it out, lots of threads there regarding hiring and info, especially for emirates and qatar... as with everything online and forums, take everything with a grain of salt.

Great, thanks for the help! We should all be helping and supporting each other, that's the only way to succeed as a pilot group and improve wages and work conditions in this country.