When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
- schnitzel2k3
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1456
- Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm
When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
259k USD plus 40k annual bonus. Captains pay from day one with 950 hours of Part 121 xp.
What is this 350k CAD at current exchange rates?
Insanity. To fly an Embraer 145 with flow to American.
What is this 350k CAD at current exchange rates?
Insanity. To fly an Embraer 145 with flow to American.
- Attachments
-
- Screenshot_20221027-182410_LinkedIn.jpg (274.51 KiB) Viewed 2969 times
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1025
- Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:25 pm
- Location: in the bush
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
Sadly one can only dream of a similar pay structure in Canukistan.
Why are we (Canada) so far behind?
Whores. Wait…. Doesn’t a prosty make more money per client/hour in Canada?
Canadian aviation is bananas.
TPC
Why are we (Canada) so far behind?
Whores. Wait…. Doesn’t a prosty make more money per client/hour in Canada?
Canadian aviation is bananas.
TPC
-
- Rank 1
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:06 pm
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
Fascinating to watch the US airlines industry that was taken advantage of for so much for so long - fight back.
It's too bad we have pilots in Canada who think we can't obtain this too...never underestimate what an organized group can do
It's too bad we have pilots in Canada who think we can't obtain this too...never underestimate what an organized group can do
-
- Rank 6
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:32 am
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
Would it make a difference if a lot of companies voted out their current mecs for more junior ones? The majority seem too close with management and in senior positions, where they are improving their own conditions at the expense of junior members. I see this with Jazz, where a disconnect exists between senior pilots and their awareness of how dire the financial situation of many junior members.
- schnitzel2k3
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1456
- Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
The scary part is this is regional work. You're still taking a first year paycut to go to American. I think 100k or thereabouts, then onto formula YR, near or about 150k, then to the moon.
Cpuld you inagine if Jazz tried to go this route?
I know Flair is ~140k DEC plus a bonus at yr 3, something nearing 50k.
Wonder what will happen if AC carves out flat pay completely.
Cpuld you inagine if Jazz tried to go this route?
I know Flair is ~140k DEC plus a bonus at yr 3, something nearing 50k.
Wonder what will happen if AC carves out flat pay completely.
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
You have no fucking clue what the @#$! you are talking about, give me some examples of how the seniors improved their conditions at the expense of the junior members.canadian_aviator_4 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:24 am Would it make a difference if a lot of companies voted out their current mecs for more junior ones? The majority seem too close with management and in senior positions, where they are improving their own conditions at the expense of junior members. I see this with Jazz, where a disconnect exists between senior pilots and their awareness of how dire the financial situation of many junior members.
My pension hasn’t improved since 2010, my benefits are the same and the gd pay has gone up exactly 2% per year since 2010, top captain pay at the 17 year mark has only changed by 2% per year, so where exactly has my situation improved at your fucking expense, please enlighten me!
In fact, since 2010 including the 2010 contract, the only improvements went to the junior members with exception to the concessionary contract in 2015, which again our backs were up against a wall where two other companies were undercutting our wages to our detriment.
You have the ability to improve your conditions, I hear Flair is hiring, so is Porter but I suspect in the end you’re willing to whore yourself out to get to AC and complain about about how you’ve been fucked over by senior members. That won’t change when you get to AC.
By the way, I was somewhat new during the 2010 contract, I was still an FO for the 2015 contract and not by choice, not once did I ever think I was being sold out by the senior members who made this place the top paid Regional airline in North America, back then of course, that put a target on our back.
Also, the target was placed on our backs by the AC pilots, if you want to lay some blame on your current situation, start there.
Last thing, the union you speak of, turned down the companies request to throw some money at the training department, their response was everybody gets a raise or nobody, doesn’t sound like a union looking out for themselves but you do you!
Last edited by cdnavater on Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Rank 5
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:51 pm
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
The issue at Jazz isn't a disconnect, is a difference generational mind set. The next generation no longer see Jazz as a career path, only a steppingstone to The Mother Ship. That generates very little incentive for the Jazz MEC to negotiate any significant gains at the expense of those who choose to stay put. The very thing the next generation convents; flow to mainline, is what has kept and will keep the entry level pay scales where they are. You can't have your cake and eat as well. Earlier generations in Canadian aviation paid their dues in the North, on a dock, slugging freight at -40c and a whole host of other "entry level" tasks. The next generation is paying their dues through flow, depressed wages and flat pay for their first few years at The Mother Ships. In one way or another we all paid or will pay somehow.canadian_aviator_4 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:24 am Would it make a difference if a lot of companies voted out their current mecs for more junior ones? The majority seem too close with management and in senior positions, where they are improving their own conditions at the expense of junior members. I see this with Jazz, where a disconnect exists between senior pilots and their awareness of how dire the financial situation of many junior members.
- schnitzel2k3
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1456
- Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
The U.S guys seem to have found a way to have cake, eat cake.
The FAA 1500 hour rule is definitely limiting the pool of available pilots. Jazz et al. still has access to cadets and potentially TFWs to soften the tougher times.
What were seeing is a lack of experience in the left seat right now. DECs opportunities at almost all levels of the industry.
The FAA 1500 hour rule is definitely limiting the pool of available pilots. Jazz et al. still has access to cadets and potentially TFWs to soften the tougher times.
What were seeing is a lack of experience in the left seat right now. DECs opportunities at almost all levels of the industry.
- schnitzel2k3
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1456
- Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
Oh, I also saw Southwest, for 2023 is seeking options through the government to hire international pilots under an H1B program, bypassing the NIW process.
How successful they are under this process is anyones guess, but it looks like the U.S airlines are at a breaking point. A U.S based recession likely would remove some of that vacuum, but they'll be ebbing and flowing to that option over the next few years.
Keen operators will plan for growth, and put in place strategies to solve pilot retention post recession rather than focusing on cutting and laying off during the recession. You can bet in Canada, while we are forecast for a milder recession than our neighbors (BoC is already starting to throttle back), our operators are going to cut off their nose before actively planning for growth.
How successful they are under this process is anyones guess, but it looks like the U.S airlines are at a breaking point. A U.S based recession likely would remove some of that vacuum, but they'll be ebbing and flowing to that option over the next few years.
Keen operators will plan for growth, and put in place strategies to solve pilot retention post recession rather than focusing on cutting and laying off during the recession. You can bet in Canada, while we are forecast for a milder recession than our neighbors (BoC is already starting to throttle back), our operators are going to cut off their nose before actively planning for growth.
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
It is interesting in Canada, as opposed to the US, that the unionized Pilot groups are struggling to leverage the supply side problems to increase compensation while in sectors like 703/704 and corporate aviation these changes are manifesting organically due to simple supply and demand dynamics.
I wonder if it is the challenge of turning a large ship around or perhaps obstinate resistance from the large corporate employers to deal with the reality of Pilot labour shortages, particularly as it applies to experienced pilots.
I wonder if it is the challenge of turning a large ship around or perhaps obstinate resistance from the large corporate employers to deal with the reality of Pilot labour shortages, particularly as it applies to experienced pilots.
-
- Rank 5
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:51 pm
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
I think you have it correct, the larger Canadian 705 operations have a habit of "wait and see" while playing on the very unique Canadian love of aviation and willingness to accept less for the dream of flight.rudder wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:48 am It is interesting in Canada, as opposed to the US, that the unionized Pilot groups are struggling to leverage the supply side problems to increase compensation while in sectors like 703/704 and corporate aviation these changes are manifesting organically due to simple supply and demand dynamics.
I wonder if it is the challenge of turning a large ship around or perhaps obstinate resistance from the large corporate employers to deal with the reality of Pilot labour shortages, particularly as it applies to experienced pilots.
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
I have an acquaintance that works for a US National that just ratified a deal with a 24% raise over 22 months and a US$40k retro cheque. Top scale NB CA 2024 US$335.schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:30 pm 259k USD plus 40k annual bonus. Captains pay from day one with 950 hours of Part 121 xp.
What is this 350k CAD at current exchange rates?
Insanity. To fly an Embraer 145 with flow to American.
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:09 pm
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
Maybe the negotiators' can put this report to use in their efforts.
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/travel/news/a ... 780d14c8b6
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/travel/news/a ... 780d14c8b6
- schnitzel2k3
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1456
- Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
Yum. Honestly not at all surprised. You've gotta imagine as soon as the ioerators down south figure out how to acquire Canadians, our carriers are going to be in an absolute cold panic trying to jam the door.rudder wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:58 amI have an acquaintance that works for a US National that just ratified a deal with a 24% raise over 22 months and a US$40k retro cheque. Top scale NB CA 2024 US$335.schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:30 pm 259k USD plus 40k annual bonus. Captains pay from day one with 950 hours of Part 121 xp.
What is this 350k CAD at current exchange rates?
Insanity. To fly an Embraer 145 with flow to American.
The delta on pay is just too massive. I would say QOL, but it really matters where you live in the U.S.
-
- Rank 5
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:51 pm
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
An "open door" to the US would be a game changer for Canadian pilots
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
I would prefer to see AC making comparisons to 2019 metrics (last full pre-COVID year) than 2021. Much more relevance.TrilliumFlt wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:04 am Maybe the negotiators' can put this report to use in their efforts.
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/travel/news/a ... 780d14c8b6
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
The difference in standard of living @$100k between Canada and US is staggering. On a non-currency adjusted basis, CDN rates should equal or exceed US rates to account for this fact.schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:07 am The delta on pay is just too massive. I would say QOL, but it really matters where you live in the U.S.
- schnitzel2k3
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1456
- Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
Full agreement. Operators pegging rates to US op. rates, minus exchange would be a fantastic start.
Air Canada is likely going to get the crutches and limp act working for them going into 2023. Apparently still at a Q3 508M net operating loss, but positive income....
Did they hedge wrong on fuel prices.
Air Canada is likely going to get the crutches and limp act working for them going into 2023. Apparently still at a Q3 508M net operating loss, but positive income....
Did they hedge wrong on fuel prices.
-
- Rank 6
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:32 am
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
You have been at Jazz for 12 years, so I imagine you have a lot of experience. So why do you stay if your pay is so low? I imagine with your experience you could go to Flair or Porter and make much more money.cdnavater wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:12 amYou have no fucking clue what the @#$! you are talking about, give me some examples of how the seniors improved their conditions at the expense of the junior members.canadian_aviator_4 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:24 am Would it make a difference if a lot of companies voted out their current mecs for more junior ones? The majority seem too close with management and in senior positions, where they are improving their own conditions at the expense of junior members. I see this with Jazz, where a disconnect exists between senior pilots and their awareness of how dire the financial situation of many junior members.
My pension hasn’t improved since 2010, my benefits are the same and the gd pay has gone up exactly 2% per year since 2010, top captain pay at the 17 year mark has only changed by 2% per year, so where exactly has my situation improved at your fucking expense, please enlighten me!
In fact, since 2010 including the 2010 contract, the only improvements went to the junior members with exception to the concessionary contract in 2015, which again our backs were up against a wall where two other companies were undercutting our wages to our detriment.
You have the ability to improve your conditions, I hear Flair is hiring, so is Porter but I suspect in the end you’re willing to whore yourself out to get to AC and complain about about how you’ve been fucked over by senior members. That won’t change when you get to AC.
By the way, I was somewhat new during the 2010 contract, I was still an FO for the 2015 contract and not by choice, not once did I ever think I was being sold out by the senior members who made this place the top paid Regional airline in North America, back then of course, that put a target on our back.
Also, the target was placed on our backs by the AC pilots, if you want to lay some blame on your current situation, start there.
Last thing, the union you speak of, turned down the companies request to throw some money at the training department, their response was everybody gets a raise or nobody, doesn’t sound like a union looking out for themselves but you do you!
Re: When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'
I’ve been at Jazz longer. I’m top payscale and it wouldn’t be terrible if it weren’t for the massive tax rates and deductions. I was better off financially before the WuFlu since the 2% pay raise doesn’t cover the 8+% inflation or increasing tax/benefit deductions. The only thing keeping me here is the DB pension.canadian_aviator_4 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:42 amYou have been at Jazz for 12 years, so I imagine you have a lot of experience. So why do you stay if your pay is so low? I imagine with your experience you could go to Flair or Porter and make much more money.cdnavater wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:12 amYou have no fucking clue what the @#$! you are talking about, give me some examples of how the seniors improved their conditions at the expense of the junior members.canadian_aviator_4 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:24 am Would it make a difference if a lot of companies voted out their current mecs for more junior ones? The majority seem too close with management and in senior positions, where they are improving their own conditions at the expense of junior members. I see this with Jazz, where a disconnect exists between senior pilots and their awareness of how dire the financial situation of many junior members.
My pension hasn’t improved since 2010, my benefits are the same and the gd pay has gone up exactly 2% per year since 2010, top captain pay at the 17 year mark has only changed by 2% per year, so where exactly has my situation improved at your fucking expense, please enlighten me!
In fact, since 2010 including the 2010 contract, the only improvements went to the junior members with exception to the concessionary contract in 2015, which again our backs were up against a wall where two other companies were undercutting our wages to our detriment.
You have the ability to improve your conditions, I hear Flair is hiring, so is Porter but I suspect in the end you’re willing to whore yourself out to get to AC and complain about about how you’ve been fucked over by senior members. That won’t change when you get to AC.
By the way, I was somewhat new during the 2010 contract, I was still an FO for the 2015 contract and not by choice, not once did I ever think I was being sold out by the senior members who made this place the top paid Regional airline in North America, back then of course, that put a target on our back.
Also, the target was placed on our backs by the AC pilots, if you want to lay some blame on your current situation, start there.
Last thing, the union you speak of, turned down the companies request to throw some money at the training department, their response was everybody gets a raise or nobody, doesn’t sound like a union looking out for themselves but you do you!
Let’s Go Brandon