When ALPA says 'Where should we set our bar?'

[schnitzel2k3]

259k USD plus 40k annual bonus. Captains pay from day one with 950 hours of Part 121 xp.

What is this 350k CAD at current exchange rates?

Insanity. To fly an Embraer 145 with flow to American.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Sadly one can only dream of a similar pay structure in Canukistan.

Why are we (Canada) so far behind?

Whores. Wait…. Doesn’t a prosty make more money per client/hour in Canada?

Canadian aviation is bananas.

TPC

[GeoffPilot]

Fascinating to watch the US airlines industry that was taken advantage of for so much for so long - fight back.

It's too bad we have pilots in Canada who think we can't obtain this too...never underestimate what an organized group can do

[canadian_aviator_4]

Would it make a difference if a lot of companies voted out their current mecs for more junior ones? The majority seem too close with management and in senior positions, where they are improving their own conditions at the expense of junior members. I see this with Jazz, where a disconnect exists between senior pilots and their awareness of how dire the financial situation of many junior members.

[schnitzel2k3]

The scary part is this is regional work. You're still taking a first year paycut to go to American. I think 100k or thereabouts, then onto formula YR, near or about 150k, then to the moon.

Cpuld you inagine if Jazz tried to go this route?

I know Flair is ~140k DEC plus a bonus at yr 3, something nearing 50k.

Wonder what will happen if AC carves out flat pay completely.

[cdnavater]

Would it make a difference if a lot of companies voted out their current mecs for more junior ones? The majority seem too close with management and in senior positions, where they are improving their own conditions at the expense of junior members. I see this with Jazz, where a disconnect exists between senior pilots and their awareness of how dire the financial situation of many junior members.

You have no fucking clue what the @#$! you are talking about, give me some examples of how the seniors improved their conditions at the expense of the junior members.
My pension hasn’t improved since 2010, my benefits are the same and the gd pay has gone up exactly 2% per year since 2010, top captain pay at the 17 year mark has only changed by 2% per year, so where exactly has my situation improved at your fucking expense, please enlighten me!
In fact, since 2010 including the 2010 contract, the only improvements went to the junior members with exception to the concessionary contract in 2015, which again our backs were up against a wall where two other companies were undercutting our wages to our detriment.
You have the ability to improve your conditions, I hear Flair is hiring, so is Porter but I suspect in the end you’re willing to whore yourself out to get to AC and complain about about how you’ve been fucked over by senior members. That won’t change when you get to AC.
By the way, I was somewhat new during the 2010 contract, I was still an FO for the 2015 contract and not by choice, not once did I ever think I was being sold out by the senior members who made this place the top paid Regional airline in North America, back then of course, that put a target on our back.
Also, the target was placed on our backs by the AC pilots, if you want to lay some blame on your current situation, start there.
Last thing, the union you speak of, turned down the companies request to throw some money at the training department, their response was everybody gets a raise or nobody, doesn’t sound like a union looking out for themselves but you do you!

[Loon-A-Tic]

Would it make a difference if a lot of companies voted out their current mecs for more junior ones? The majority seem too close with management and in senior positions, where they are improving their own conditions at the expense of junior members. I see this with Jazz, where a disconnect exists between senior pilots and their awareness of how dire the financial situation of many junior members.

The issue at Jazz isn't a disconnect, is a difference generational mind set. The next generation no longer see Jazz as a career path, only a steppingstone to The Mother Ship. That generates very little incentive for the Jazz MEC to negotiate any significant gains at the expense of those who choose to stay put. The very thing the next generation convents; flow to mainline, is what has kept and will keep the entry level pay scales where they are. You can't have your cake and eat as well. Earlier generations in Canadian aviation paid their dues in the North, on a dock, slugging freight at -40c and a whole host of other "entry level" tasks. The next generation is paying their dues through flow, depressed wages and flat pay for their first few years at The Mother Ships. In one way or another we all paid or will pay somehow.

[schnitzel2k3]

The U.S guys seem to have found a way to have cake, eat cake.

The FAA 1500 hour rule is definitely limiting the pool of available pilots. Jazz et al. still has access to cadets and potentially TFWs to soften the tougher times.

What were seeing is a lack of experience in the left seat right now. DECs opportunities at almost all levels of the industry.

[schnitzel2k3]

Oh, I also saw Southwest, for 2023 is seeking options through the government to hire international pilots under an H1B program, bypassing the NIW process.

How successful they are under this process is anyones guess, but it looks like the U.S airlines are at a breaking point. A U.S based recession likely would remove some of that vacuum, but they'll be ebbing and flowing to that option over the next few years.

Keen operators will plan for growth, and put in place strategies to solve pilot retention post recession rather than focusing on cutting and laying off during the recession. You can bet in Canada, while we are forecast for a milder recession than our neighbors (BoC is already starting to throttle back), our operators are going to cut off their nose before actively planning for growth.

[rudder]

It is interesting in Canada, as opposed to the US, that the unionized Pilot groups are struggling to leverage the supply side problems to increase compensation while in sectors like 703/704 and corporate aviation these changes are manifesting organically due to simple supply and demand dynamics.

I wonder if it is the challenge of turning a large ship around or perhaps obstinate resistance from the large corporate employers to deal with the reality of Pilot labour shortages, particularly as it applies to experienced pilots.

[Loon-A-Tic]

It is interesting in Canada, as opposed to the US, that the unionized Pilot groups are struggling to leverage the supply side problems to increase compensation while in sectors like 703/704 and corporate aviation these changes are manifesting organically due to simple supply and demand dynamics.

I wonder if it is the challenge of turning a large ship around or perhaps obstinate resistance from the large corporate employers to deal with the reality of Pilot labour shortages, particularly as it applies to experienced pilots.

I think you have it correct, the larger Canadian 705 operations have a habit of "wait and see" while playing on the very unique Canadian love of aviation and willingness to accept less for the dream of flight.

[rudder]

259k USD plus 40k annual bonus. Captains pay from day one with 950 hours of Part 121 xp.

What is this 350k CAD at current exchange rates?

Insanity. To fly an Embraer 145 with flow to American.

I have an acquaintance that works for a US National that just ratified a deal with a 24% raise over 22 months and a US$40k retro cheque. Top scale NB CA 2024 US$335.

[TrilliumFlt]

Maybe the negotiators' can put this report to use in their efforts.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/travel/news/a ... 780d14c8b6

[schnitzel2k3]

259k USD plus 40k annual bonus. Captains pay from day one with 950 hours of Part 121 xp.

What is this 350k CAD at current exchange rates?

Insanity. To fly an Embraer 145 with flow to American.

I have an acquaintance that works for a US National that just ratified a deal with a 24% raise over 22 months and a US$40k retro cheque. Top scale NB CA 2024 US$335.

Yum. Honestly not at all surprised. You've gotta imagine as soon as the ioerators down south figure out how to acquire Canadians, our carriers are going to be in an absolute cold panic trying to jam the door.

The delta on pay is just too massive. I would say QOL, but it really matters where you live in the U.S.

[Loon-A-Tic]

An "open door" to the US would be a game changer for Canadian pilots

[rudder]

Maybe the negotiators' can put this report to use in their efforts.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/travel/news/a ... 780d14c8b6

I would prefer to see AC making comparisons to 2019 metrics (last full pre-COVID year) than 2021. Much more relevance.

[rudder]

The delta on pay is just too massive. I would say QOL, but it really matters where you live in the U.S.

The difference in standard of living @$100k between Canada and US is staggering. On a non-currency adjusted basis, CDN rates should equal or exceed US rates to account for this fact.

[schnitzel2k3]

Full agreement. Operators pegging rates to US op. rates, minus exchange would be a fantastic start.

Air Canada is likely going to get the crutches and limp act working for them going into 2023. Apparently still at a Q3 508M net operating loss, but positive income....

Did they hedge wrong on fuel prices.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Would it make a difference if a lot of companies voted out their current mecs for more junior ones? The majority seem too close with management and in senior positions, where they are improving their own conditions at the expense of junior members. I see this with Jazz, where a disconnect exists between senior pilots and their awareness of how dire the financial situation of many junior members.

You have no fucking clue what the @#$! you are talking about, give me some examples of how the seniors improved their conditions at the expense of the junior members.
My pension hasn’t improved since 2010, my benefits are the same and the gd pay has gone up exactly 2% per year since 2010, top captain pay at the 17 year mark has only changed by 2% per year, so where exactly has my situation improved at your fucking expense, please enlighten me!
In fact, since 2010 including the 2010 contract, the only improvements went to the junior members with exception to the concessionary contract in 2015, which again our backs were up against a wall where two other companies were undercutting our wages to our detriment.
You have the ability to improve your conditions, I hear Flair is hiring, so is Porter but I suspect in the end you’re willing to whore yourself out to get to AC and complain about about how you’ve been fucked over by senior members. That won’t change when you get to AC.
By the way, I was somewhat new during the 2010 contract, I was still an FO for the 2015 contract and not by choice, not once did I ever think I was being sold out by the senior members who made this place the top paid Regional airline in North America, back then of course, that put a target on our back.
Also, the target was placed on our backs by the AC pilots, if you want to lay some blame on your current situation, start there.
Last thing, the union you speak of, turned down the companies request to throw some money at the training department, their response was everybody gets a raise or nobody, doesn’t sound like a union looking out for themselves but you do you!

You have been at Jazz for 12 years, so I imagine you have a lot of experience. So why do you stay if your pay is so low? I imagine with your experience you could go to Flair or Porter and make much more money.

[Inverted2]

Would it make a difference if a lot of companies voted out their current mecs for more junior ones? The majority seem too close with management and in senior positions, where they are improving their own conditions at the expense of junior members. I see this with Jazz, where a disconnect exists between senior pilots and their awareness of how dire the financial situation of many junior members.

You have no fucking clue what the @#$! you are talking about, give me some examples of how the seniors improved their conditions at the expense of the junior members.
My pension hasn’t improved since 2010, my benefits are the same and the gd pay has gone up exactly 2% per year since 2010, top captain pay at the 17 year mark has only changed by 2% per year, so where exactly has my situation improved at your fucking expense, please enlighten me!
In fact, since 2010 including the 2010 contract, the only improvements went to the junior members with exception to the concessionary contract in 2015, which again our backs were up against a wall where two other companies were undercutting our wages to our detriment.
You have the ability to improve your conditions, I hear Flair is hiring, so is Porter but I suspect in the end you’re willing to whore yourself out to get to AC and complain about about how you’ve been fucked over by senior members. That won’t change when you get to AC.
By the way, I was somewhat new during the 2010 contract, I was still an FO for the 2015 contract and not by choice, not once did I ever think I was being sold out by the senior members who made this place the top paid Regional airline in North America, back then of course, that put a target on our back.
Also, the target was placed on our backs by the AC pilots, if you want to lay some blame on your current situation, start there.
Last thing, the union you speak of, turned down the companies request to throw some money at the training department, their response was everybody gets a raise or nobody, doesn’t sound like a union looking out for themselves but you do you!

You have been at Jazz for 12 years, so I imagine you have a lot of experience. So why do you stay if your pay is so low? I imagine with your experience you could go to Flair or Porter and make much more money.

I’ve been at Jazz longer. I’m top payscale and it wouldn’t be terrible if it weren’t for the massive tax rates and deductions. I was better off financially before the WuFlu since the 2% pay raise doesn’t cover the 8+% inflation or increasing tax/benefit deductions. The only thing keeping me here is the DB pension.