Canadian Pilots Are Too Afraid to Stand Up for Better Pay

[RoAF-Mig21]

Until Canadians aren't a $200 shortfall on their next paycheque away from financial trouble, it won't change. Beggars can't be choosers.

I flew with a guy a few weeks back, new 705 FO, gf is a Rouge FA, 1.2 million dollar house in YUL.
That guy WILL take whatever overtime he can get.

There's also that side of the coin: "Living beyond your means".

The formula is pretty simple to calculate, and almost impossible to achieve (Given the high cost of housing in Canada)

Let's assume a couple each makes 50K a year before tax, and 30K a year after tax & other deductions. That's $60K a year take home, combined pay. That's roughly around $5000 a month in their bank account.

1. Canadians shouldn't really pay more than 33% of their income on housing. For the example given above, their budget would be around $1650 per month to spend on housing. Of course, that's not going to cut it in most cities now, even for a small 1-bedroom apartment. The reality is most Canadians families spend around 50% of their take home pay on housing. In this example, it would be around $2500. Even that is peanuts for someone looking to live in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal or Calgary (with the last two being somewhat more affordable)

2. I don't even know what the payment on a $1.2 mil mortgage would be. I'd guess (at 3.5% interest) somewhere around $4000-$5000 a month. That's way out of reach for an F/O and F/A's combined salaries, unless they have some sort of other income (side business / gig) or financial aid (family members, etc)... A 3rd option would be to have had a substantial down payment that would bring their mortgage down.

[Bede]

Some people need that overtime to pay their mortgage and feed their kids. It's easy to say, if you make $150K a year, "No I don't need that extra $1000 a month", but $500 a month extra (from overtime) for a First Officer making $65K a year (before tax) is food for him and his family for 2 weeks (if you plan it properly). Or it's 5 extra tanks of gas, so you can commute to your home base... because you can't afford an apartment there.

If you stop doing overtime for a short period you can get that increase in pay, and then some, permanently without even having to do overtime.

Sorry, that's a pretty sweeping statement. Care to substantiate?

[TalkingPie]

I join those who assert that Canadians pickling themselves in debt is a reason why airlines (and other companies) can get away with jerking workers around the way they do.

A $1.2 million house for a junior pilot and FA in Montreal? You go to work on average 5-6 times a month; buy a house off the island, if you really want one. And even if you insist on being within 15 minutes of the airport, a starter bungalow can be had for around half a million. I live 35 minutes from the airport and have a 2,300 sq ft (plus basement) house with a 2 car garage on a 24,000 sq ft lot. My guess is that today's market value isn't much above $500k (we paid $350k in 2018). Three modest, reliable, comfortable older cars, all paid off. My flight training is paid as I go, cash. Could I get it done much faster if I quit my job and took on debt? Absolutely, but then I'd be too much at the mercy of other people's whims, and I don't like that.

Spouse makes slightly less than I do, and I'm cabin crew, no financial help from the parents, as it should be for adults. Even during my 15 month layoff during the pandemic paying the bills wasn't an issue - not even when a $26,000 bill for roof replacement came due - because we structured our lives that way when times were good. No designer furniture or professional landscaping. If something breaks around the house or on the cars, more often than not, I'll fix it myself. If it's not broken, it's highly unlikely we'll replace it. We cook at home; I go out to eat more than enough on layovers, and truth be told, grilling a steak on my deck without pants on appeals to me more than going to a crowded, expensive restaurant.

Luck is always going to play a role, but when you mire yourself in debt for shit you don't need, saying "no" to things you don't agree with becomes much more difficult. I love money and nice things, but of all the great things that money can buy, freedom is among the most important to me.

As long as employers know that employees can't afford to say no, demanding more is going to be a big uphill battle.

[rookiepilot]

I join those who assert that Canadians pickling themselves in debt is a reason why airlines (and other companies) can get away with jerking workers around the way they do.

A $1.2 million house for a junior pilot and FA in Montreal? You go to work on average 5-6 times a month; buy a house off the island, if you really want one. And even if you insist on being within 15 minutes of the airport, a starter bungalow can be had for around half a million. I live 35 minutes from the airport and have a 2,300 sq ft (plus basement) house with a 2 car garage on a 24,000 sq ft lot. My guess is that today's market value isn't much above $500k (we paid $350k in 2018). Three modest, reliable, comfortable older cars, all paid off. My flight training is paid as I go, cash. Could I get it done much faster if I quit my job and took on debt? Absolutely, but then I'd be too much at the mercy of other people's whims, and I don't like that.

Spouse makes slightly less than I do, and I'm cabin crew, no financial help from the parents, as it should be for adults. Even during my 15 month layoff during the pandemic paying the bills wasn't an issue - not even when a $26,000 bill for roof replacement came due - because we structured our lives that way when times were good. No designer furniture or professional landscaping. If something breaks around the house or on the cars, more often than not, I'll fix it myself. If it's not broken, it's highly unlikely we'll replace it. We cook at home; I go out to eat more than enough on layovers, and truth be told, grilling a steak on my deck without pants on appeals to me more than going to a crowded, expensive restaurant.

Luck is always going to play a role, but when you mire yourself in debt for shit you don't need, saying "no" to things you don't agree with becomes much more difficult. I love money and nice things, but of all the great things that money can buy, freedom is among the most important to me.

As long as employers know that employees can't afford to say no, demanding more is going to be a big uphill battle.

Don’t expect to be popular writing like this. I agree with every word, but its not popular to say it.

Mine?
My first (minimum wage) job was at 15, (delivery of newspapers, shoveled snow from age 10) I paid rent from 18, in my own apartment —moldy basement suite — at 19, paid one year of college then dropped out — couldn’t afford it — zero family help. Everything bought used, everything bought cash.

Started my business across the country at 30 with 25K. No RRSP, no house, pension, one old car. No debt. Kept living cheap. Made some money, eventually, bought a cheap house — cash. Still have it. Everything bought with cash. Only 2 cars bought new, rest used.

After — got my pilots license and ratings. Cash. Instructor quipped once “your lucky”.

Uh —No.

Nobody owns me.

But nobody wants to pay that price.

[averageatbest]

Don’t expect to be popular writing like this. I agree with every word, but its not popular to say it.

Mine?
My first (minimum wage) job was at 15, (delivery of newspapers, shoveled snow from age 10) I paid rent from 18, in my own apartment —moldy basement suite — at 19, paid one year of college then dropped out — couldn’t afford it — zero family help. Everything bought used, everything bought cash.

Started my business across the country at 30 with 25K. No RRSP, no house, pension, one old car. No debt. Kept living cheap. Made some money, eventually, bought a cheap house — cash. Still have it. Everything bought with cash. Only 2 cars bought new, rest used.

After — got my pilots license and ratings. Cash. Instructor quipped once “your lucky”.

Uh —No.

Nobody owns me.

But nobody wants to pay that price.

There is nothing wrong with making all of the right choices and getting lucky enough times to make it.

Unfortunately, when someone is a professional pilot and is unable to afford the basics (rent, food, gas, internet, phone) without taking on more and more debt, there is a problem.

Safety is being compromised and the employers are willing to bet that it won't bite them in the ass.

[rookiepilot]

Don’t expect to be popular writing like this. I agree with every word, but its not popular to say it.

Mine?
My first (minimum wage) job was at 15, (delivery of newspapers, shoveled snow from age 10) I paid rent from 18, in my own apartment —moldy basement suite — at 19, paid one year of college then dropped out — couldn’t afford it — zero family help. Everything bought used, everything bought cash.

Started my business across the country at 30 with 25K. No RRSP, no house, pension, one old car. No debt. Kept living cheap. Made some money, eventually, bought a cheap house — cash. Still have it. Everything bought with cash. Only 2 cars bought new, rest used.

After — got my pilots license and ratings. Cash. Instructor quipped once “your lucky”.

Uh —No.

Nobody owns me.

But nobody wants to pay that price.

There is nothing wrong with making all of the right choices and getting lucky enough times to make it.

Unfortunately, when someone is a professional pilot and is unable to afford the basics (rent, food, gas, internet, phone) without taking on more and more debt, there is a problem.

Safety is being compromised and the employers are willing to bet that it won't bite them in the ass.

So “being unable to afford to buy a $1.2 million dollar house as a new FO” — is now being spun as a compromise of safety?

Explain, please.

[averageatbest]

So “being unable to afford to buy a $1.2 million dollar house as a new FO” — is now being spun as a compromise of safety?

Explain, please.

When did I ever say that?

Pilots at Jazz, Porter, Encore employ pilots out of Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, and Vancouver and pay wages that are insufficient to cover the basics. There are pilots at all of these airlines that are sleeping in crew rooms across the country because they cannot afford a hotel room on reserve.

I don't want the pilots of my flight to worry about paying for rent and groceries while flying me around. A stressed and hungry pilot is not a safe pilot.

Instead of justifying why poverty wages is okay, why not stand up and make sure that others don't have to live through the same shit we are.

[rookiepilot]

So “being unable to afford to buy a $1.2 million dollar house as a new FO” — is now being spun as a compromise of safety?

Explain, please.

When did I ever say that?

Pilots at Jazz, Porter, Encore employ pilots out of Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, and Vancouver and pay wages that are insufficient to cover the basics. There are pilots at all of these airlines that are sleeping in crew rooms across the country because they cannot afford a hotel room on reserve.

I don't want the pilots of my flight to worry about paying for rent and groceries while flying me around. A stressed and hungry pilot is not a safe pilot.

Instead of justifying why poverty wages is okay, why not stand up and make sure that others don't have to live through the same shit we are.

I was in that situation in my former career. I left my career AND my home city AND took a ton of personal risks to find a better way.

Life is full of choices. Go fly in the middle east or china, make bank.

Or join a picket line. Or organize one. Do Something!

Or change careers. Do you want to fly or do you want to make a lot of $$$$ right away?

Wasting time complaining here.

[averageatbest]

Wasting time complaining here.

Great, it's my time and voice to waste.

[JHR]

So “being unable to afford to buy a $1.2 million dollar house as a new FO” — is now being spun as a compromise of safety?

Explain, please.

When did I ever say that?

Pilots at Jazz, Porter, Encore employ pilots out of Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, and Vancouver and pay wages that are insufficient to cover the basics. There are pilots at all of these airlines that are sleeping in crew rooms across the country because they cannot afford a hotel room on reserve.

I don't want the pilots of my flight to worry about paying for rent and groceries while flying me around. A stressed and hungry pilot is not a safe pilot.

Instead of justifying why poverty wages is okay, why not stand up and make sure that others don't have to live through the same shit we are.

I was in that situation in my former career. I left my career AND my home city AND took a ton of personal risks to find a better way.

Life is full of choices. Go fly in the middle east or china, make bank.

Or join a picket line. Or organize one. Do Something!

Or change careers. Do you want to fly or do you want to make a lot of $$$$ right away?

Wasting time complaining here.

You are truly my hero

[Bug_Stomper_01]

That tall poppy syndrome is unique to Canada and Canada alone is the worst for it. The fact of the matter is that there are people that have stood up to the crap wages and work conditions, but as the hand full of people that run this industry know, everyone is replaceable and they set the rates.
The USA is not a model we can compare to as its federal and state laws protect wages and domestic work force 1000 fold what Canada does.
The wages in Canada will never get better for some key factors, along with the two I’ve mentioned above;

•The industry feeds on the naïveté of low time pilots and ames

•There’s a very prominent force manipulating colleges into spreading the old lore of impending pilot and AME shortages (since the 80’s at the very least).

<<<<I have NEVER seen a shortage in the decades of my career as that’s a bald faced lie from industry>>>>

•The revenue generated by aviation programs across the country keeps the appetite for students exponentially higher year after year

•Once in industry the pilot and AME is conditioned to work ten fold to the next guy for equal or lesser pay because “that’s just how you get ahead”, there are always whispers in ears from managers to low timers to that end. This breeds a toxic workforce pitting co-workers against each-other for next level training and or positions.

•The few that point out how wrong this high handed extreme X management theory is, are branded troublesome, alienated by management to their peers and quickly run off. A more subservient sycophantic work force is maintained this way, after all, you should be thankful to be in this industry, let alone being paid for it!

•Canadian aviation does not have a good public image with all of the scandals and defunct businesses that have come and gone in the years. This is a great environment for shady business practices compared to anywhere else in the world.

•Threatening to walk never works even as a group because Canada can and will bring in foreign aircrew to pick up slack (this has happened in the past and is seasonally used every year in Canada). By walking you’re actually doing operators a favour, bringing in pilots from South America etc will actually help their pocket books.

Federal and provincial legislation needs to change towards protecting its domestic work force (for wage and job security) in order for things to change. That will never happen in Canada, especially under this government.
Canada has always been a place where pilots and now ames come to get experience then bounce back to where they came from or to a more lucrative country to make more and have better work conditions.

These conditions ensure that wages will never change in Canadas flying game. People can leave all they want, it is an employers market it always has been and it always will be given the aforementioned points.

[rookiepilot]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ce=twitter

You all need this

[rudder]

So “being unable to afford to buy a $1.2 million dollar house as a new FO” — is now being spun as a compromise of safety?

Explain, please.

When did I ever say that?

Pilots at Jazz, Porter, Encore employ pilots out of Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, and Vancouver and pay wages that are insufficient to cover the basics. There are pilots at all of these airlines that are sleeping in crew rooms across the country because they cannot afford a hotel room on reserve.

I don't want the pilots of my flight to worry about paying for rent and groceries while flying me around. A stressed and hungry pilot is not a safe pilot.

Instead of justifying why poverty wages is okay, why not stand up and make sure that others don't have to live through the same shit we are.

Nobody ‘deserves’ a million dollar home, and that is despite the fact that a million does not get you much in either YYZ or YVR.

But what pilots deserve is a living wage in the bases that a particular operator CHOOSES as its operational crew bases. Commuting should be a personal choice, not a necessity.

Ignoring what is happening south of the border, a significant adjustment is required. Up until January 2015, Jazz had a fair pay scale for both CA and FO commencing in year 1. That was decimated by the Hunger Games scenario courtesy of CR (and to a much lesser extent ACPA with scope language favourable to allowing a CPA competition).

A return to those $$ would just be a good start. Then let supply and demand see what operator decides that sitting on its wallet is more important than attracting the best qualified new-hire candidates to meet aircraft delivery and commercial schedule obligations.

No operator has had to pull back the expansion reigns (yet). But someone will. And it will be the one that thinks the pilot compensation model of the last two decades (which has been extremely favourable to the employer) is going to continue. It is not.

[SANL]

The fact of the matter is pilot pay is less than what it should be in Canada. To give you an idea, a 20-year-old Calgary police officer with little or no experience starting salary is $67,000, what's happening in the US currently is correct and in line with what we as pilots should earn and deserve as a profession.

[digits_]

The fact of the matter is pilot pay is less than what it should be in Canada. To give you an idea, a 20-year-old Calgary police officer with little or no experience starting salary is $67,000, what's happening in the US currently is correct and in line with what we as pilots should earn and deserve as a profession.

Why do you think pilots deserve more than a police offer?

That's a real question, not trying to trick you. Just curious.

[SANL]

The fact of the matter is pilot pay is less than what it should be in Canada. To give you an idea, a 20-year-old Calgary police officer with little or no experience starting salary is $67,000, what's happening in the US currently is correct and in line with what we as pilots should earn and deserve as a profession.

Why do you think pilots deserve more than a police offer?

That's a real question, not trying to trick you. Just curious.

What I meant was that the start salary of a police officer with no experience will be the same as a year 1 captain at many airlines/operators. That year one captain has lots of experience, nothing against police officers, that's my son that started on that salary.

[JeppsOnFire]

So “being unable to afford to buy a $1.2 million dollar house as a new FO” — is now being spun as a compromise of safety?

Explain, please.

When did I ever say that?

Pilots at Jazz, Porter, Encore employ pilots out of Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, and Vancouver and pay wages that are insufficient to cover the basics. There are pilots at all of these airlines that are sleeping in crew rooms across the country because they cannot afford a hotel room on reserve.

I don't want the pilots of my flight to worry about paying for rent and groceries while flying me around. A stressed and hungry pilot is not a safe pilot.

Instead of justifying why poverty wages is okay, why not stand up and make sure that others don't have to live through the same shit we are.

I was in that situation in my former career. I left my career AND my home city AND took a ton of personal risks to find a better way.

Life is full of choices. Go fly in the middle east or china, make bank.

Or join a picket line. Or organize one. Do Something!

Or change careers. Do you want to fly or do you want to make a lot of $$$$ right away?

Wasting time complaining here.

Although a little abrasive, the above is correct.
Complaining and worry work the opposite way you think they do. I learned long ago that if you are facing an untenable situation, you are the one who has to act. Just waiting with clenched jaw for things to change in which you have little power to influence is unlikely to land you in the place you want to be.
Start by listing your priorities and make the hard decisions from there.

All the best,

- Dad

[rookiepilot]

I flew with a guy a few weeks back, new 705 FO, gf is a Rouge FA, 1.2 million dollar house in YUL.

Curious thinking of this — and what’s coming:

How old was this pilot,
Who paid for their flight training?

I can guess on both.

Did you all catch this story? Before Christmas. Have fun, cause it’s gonna get fun.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ting-steps

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbusha ... this-year/