Is it really all that bad?

[Jaycee]

First year at an accredited college. Loving what I learn and doing well at it but, after reading some of the threads on this forum, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit unsure about my direction in this industry.

What I've observed:
- Pay not nearly commensurate with liability
- Poor/inconvenient/inflexible working hours
- Decline of experienced AMEs to train apprentices
- AIDS and other household/relationship-related troubles as a byproduct of working in this industry
- Very little change in the industry in favor of the AME, despite growing demands

I want to work on planes. It's why I chose this pathway straight out of high school, but as it stands, I honestly don't see much worth in this industry for guys like me who are just getting in. Pinned post is about 12 years old, so I'd like opinions from people in the industry right now.

Is it worth the sacrifice? Why are you still in?

Thanks.

[-42]

Your looking for the answer that suits your dream. Unfortunately here you’ll get the answer that suits reality. The sky is still blue regardless of what colour you may want it to be. Yes you’ll earn a living but it’s all the things that will destroy your “passion” for working on airplanes slowly and surely that should give you pause to rethink your career choice. As you said you have read things on here…..listen to yourself. Run away.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

First year at an accredited college. Loving what I learn and doing well at it but, after reading some of the threads on this forum, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit unsure about my direction in this industry.

What I've observed:
- Pay not nearly commensurate with liability
- Poor/inconvenient/inflexible working hours
- Decline of experienced AMEs to train apprentices
- AIDS and other household/relationship-related troubles as a byproduct of working in this industry
- Very little change in the industry in favor of the AME, despite growing demands

I want to work on planes. It's why I chose this pathway straight out of high school, but as it stands, I honestly don't see much worth in this industry for guys like me who are just getting in. Pinned post is about 12 years old, so I'd like opinions from people in the industry right now.

Is it worth the sacrifice? Why are you still in?

Thanks.

It is a thankless industry. If you put years of hard work in and learn specific products you will become valuable enough to set your own rates. That is a very long slow miserable grind however, and there is lots of competition for that small niche.
You do not get compensated for liability, or the skill and knowledge required to be an in demand AME.
You will work nights, weekends, and many many days away from home. You’ll miss loved ones important life events including your own. Summers are chewed up in overtime from unorganized understaffed employers (they do it on purpose to save money).
You are likely to get divorced, I can’t stress that enough. I am enraged with how Canadas industry has let the quality of life get to the point of grown men living on couches just to work on aircraft and wages STILL stagnant from 25 years ago.
My advice, if you truely want to do this trade, go for it, now is a good time to get it. Just don’t plan on doing this as a primary career, have an out, things are only going to get worse in Canada with how these ghouls are running the industry into the dirt.
Most guys my vintage are working states side, we can’t afford to work in Canada anymore.
Anyways read the threads in the maintenance forum and I think you’ll see the majority echoes my opinion. This is a RUTHLESS industry.

[digits_]

Also remember that the majority of happy AMEs (or pilots for that matter) are not as vocal on AvCanada than the unhappy ones.

I can honestly say I know more happy AMEs than unhappy ones.

Everybody wants to make more money, and everyone thinks they deserve more. That's just human nature. That's not necessarily related to aviation.

There are AME jobs out there with very limited night shifts, no long term travel etc.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Also remember that the majority of happy AMEs (or pilots for that matter) are not as vocal on AvCanada than the unhappy ones.

I can honestly say I know more happy AMEs than unhappy ones.

Everybody wants to make more money, and everyone thinks they deserve more. That's just human nature. That's not necessarily related to aviation.

There are AME jobs out there with very limited night shifts, no long term travel etc.

I respectfully disagree. I’m on the helicopter side of things but I also have ties in commercial fixed wing. I work all over the world and I can say for certain that Canada is a unique group with the majority unhappy as ames here. The pay is grossly low, air Canada is still paying dog sh*t after this complete shakeup. You know why…. Canada is not a good place to work on aircraft anymore and that’s from several decades of my personal experience.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Also remember that the majority of happy AMEs (or pilots for that matter) are not as vocal on AvCanada than the unhappy ones.

I can honestly say I know more happy AMEs than unhappy ones.

Everybody wants to make more money, and everyone thinks they deserve more. That's just human nature. That's not necessarily related to aviation.

There are AME jobs out there with very limited night shifts, no long term travel etc.

Furthermore the majority of pilots and ames on here are aircraft enthusiasts, the amount of negativity on the flying and fixing side of things on this forum is staggering compared to the enthusiasm. The AME jobs you’re talking with good schedules are horribly paid and few and far between (I’m talking like $35 max). First year heavy duty apprentices can make more than that ffs. I don’t know where you work but the group you’re citing as mostly happy must be a very small delusional one. The only reason I came back to this forum after 20 some years was to make a contribution to the reality of the industry for people thinking about coming into this trade.

It will always be an employers market in Canada no matter how much of a pilot and AME drought there is. Operators and amo’s will farm out work before they EVER raise the bar for wages and better work conditions. It’s already started in rotary and has been happening for some time now in fixed wing.

The OP needs to know what he or she is getting into and the more candid the information shared for newcomers to form a cogent decision about this trade the better.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Your looking for the answer that suits your dream. Unfortunately here you’ll get the answer that suits reality. The sky is still blue regardless of what colour you may want it to be. Yes you’ll earn a living but it’s all the things that will destroy your “passion” for working on airplanes slowly and surely that should give you pause to rethink your career choice. As you said you have read things on here…..listen to yourself. Run away.

It gives me no pleasure in agreeing with you but your statement is correct. Canadas amos and operators have and always will be their own worst enemies.

[digits_]

The AME jobs you’re talking with good schedules are horribly paid and few and far between (I’m talking like $35 max). First year heavy duty apprentices can make more than that ffs. I don’t know where you work but the group you’re citing as mostly happy must be a very small delusional one. The only reason I came back to this forum after 20 some years was to make a contribution to the reality of the industry for people thinking about coming into this trade.

Just take a look at these statistics: https://reviewlution.ca/resources/canad ... 0or%20more.

I assume these numbers are somewhat correct.

35/hour is 67k/year. That's 10k over the average Canadian income.


A lot of the negative 'AMEs don't make enough money' posts in reality come down to "Living in Toronto/Vancouver, my AME wage is not enough to get the quality of life I desire".

The solution often proposed is to go into a different trade. The other solution is to not live in Toronto or Vancouver.

And yes, you can probably make (much?) more in other countries, but that's not a valid argument to poop on Canadian aviation. Professionals in other industries (doctors, lawyers, engineers) can likely *also* make much more in the US for example. I'd wager that the heavy duty apprentice you mentioned can likely make the same complaints on a heavy duty forum.

So depending on your personal level of optimism, you can answer the question: "is it really all that bad" with
- "Yes, but a lot of other Canadian jobs are just as bad"
or
- "No, you can make it work"

And both will likely be true.



(and all of this pretty much goes for the pilot side of things as well)

[-42]

Again keep convincing yourself that it’s great it will be exactly that. Ostrich mentality. I don’t do it anymore thankfully however I want to tell people that want to learn anything, anytime my experience. I had it rather great and sheltered in aviation for 95% of my 15 year career. Then I saw the dark side and quickly evacuated the premises just in time I figure. If I kept telling myself how great it was it would have been too late. I made more money in those days by the way with day shift than most make today go figure with benefits one can dream of only now.You don’t want to be that guy at 50 hating life, on your second wife thinking about where your life went wrong. Just saying. You will be your own decision maker as this is just a forum with various opinions. Good luck.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

The AME jobs you’re talking with good schedules are horribly paid and few and far between (I’m talking like $35 max). First year heavy duty apprentices can make more than that ffs. I don’t know where you work but the group you’re citing as mostly happy must be a very small delusional one. The only reason I came back to this forum after 20 some years was to make a contribution to the reality of the industry for people thinking about coming into this trade.

Just take a look at these statistics: https://reviewlution.ca/resources/canad ... 0or%20more.

I assume these numbers are somewhat correct.

35/hour is 67k/year. That's 10k over the average Canadian income.


A lot of the negative 'AMEs don't make enough money' posts in reality come down to "Living in Toronto/Vancouver, my AME wage is not enough to get the quality of life I desire".

The solution often proposed is to go into a different trade. The other solution is to not live in Toronto or Vancouver.

And yes, you can probably make (much?) more in other countries, but that's not a valid argument to poop on Canadian aviation. Professionals in other industries (doctors, lawyers, engineers) can likely *also* make much more in the US for example. I'd wager that the heavy duty apprentice you mentioned can likely make the same complaints on a heavy duty forum.

So depending on your personal level of optimism, you can answer the question: "is it really all that bad" with
- "Yes, but a lot of other Canadian jobs are just as bad"
or
- "No, you can make it work"

And both will likely be true.



(and all of this pretty much goes for the pilot side of things as well)

That’s ridiculous man. I’m also a heavy duty and I can tell you I have had little complaints at the companies I worked for. The wages are policed provincially, where aviation is a free for all. I don’t give a crap about the “average wage”. The bottom line is a guy signing for maintenance on an aircraft in usually less than ideal (if not illegal conditions) in Canada with no schedule or proper support should be paid well into six figures just for one type rating. $35/ hour… LOL. If you’re happy with that be my guest, that sets the bar that much higher for everyone else that wants a reasonable salary. (I don’t live in the gta or Vancouver / lower mainland).

Digits are you an AME? Forgive me if I didn’t read back to verify that or not..

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Again keep convincing yourself that it’s great it will be exactly that. Ostrich mentality. I don’t do it anymore thankfully however I want to tell people that want to learn anything, anytime my experience. I had it rather great and sheltered in aviation for 95% of my 15 year career. Then I saw the dark side and quickly evacuated the premises just in time I figure. If I kept telling myself how great it was it would have been too late. I made more money in those days by the way with day shift than most make today go figure with benefits one can dream of only now.You don’t want to be that guy at 50 hating life, on your second wife thinking about where your life went wrong. Just saying. You will be your own decision maker as this is just a forum with various opinions. Good luck.

It ruins lives in Canada. I have former students / apprentices contacting me years later thanking me for my candour during their training. It’s a vicious thing this industry, they’ve been (industry) toting the impending pilot and AME shortage since the 80’s ffs. It’s a very manipulative structure to convince young naive high schoolers / college students to get into this trade only to run through them after 2-5 years licensed. I don’t know if digits is an AME but I’d be surprised if he actually is from some of the posts. You can’t compare the crap wages being teaspoon’d out by companies to the collective average in Canada with this extremely specialized profession.
It’s not that plain an issue with the inherent liability and BS associated with an AME license including the grossly low pay.

This industry did pay well in Canada up until 2008 when the economy collapsed and has never recovered.

There certainly are a lot of pilots chiming in on our wages however, gee I wonder why that it ($20/Hr flying right seat in a CRJ perhaps!??). That’s a whole other issue. The fact of the matter is the industry is monopolized by a hand full of ghouls at the top.

The only way to fix that is to start regulating wages at TC level or let our lack of availability as a group speak.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Again keep convincing yourself that it’s great it will be exactly that. Ostrich mentality. I don’t do it anymore thankfully however I want to tell people that want to learn anything, anytime my experience. I had it rather great and sheltered in aviation for 95% of my 15 year career. Then I saw the dark side and quickly evacuated the premises just in time I figure. If I kept telling myself how great it was it would have been too late. I made more money in those days by the way with day shift than most make today go figure with benefits one can dream of only now.You don’t want to be that guy at 50 hating life, on your second wife thinking about where your life went wrong. Just saying. You will be your own decision maker as this is just a forum with various opinions. Good luck.

When did you see it tank? I’m guessing around the time I saw it I. Helicopters around 2008-2011

[SeptRepair]

What I have found, those that don't see the wage structure as being a problem, usually have a spouse who makes more than they do. In a sense ride on her coat tails. They just trudge through life not having to be the bread winner and in a sense have a sugar momma they can depend on. They get in positions of management eventually and are the greatest reason for the wage stagnation. To the OP, marry an intelligent woman who can out earn you.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

What I have found, those that don't see the wage structure as being a problem, usually have a spouse who makes more than they do. In a sense ride on her coat tails. They just trudge through life not having to be the bread winner and in a sense have a sugar momma they can depend on. They get in positions of management eventually and are the greatest reason for the wage stagnation. To the OP, marry an intelligent woman who can out earn you.

I literally had a manager say “well your wife makes a good living doesn’t she?” When I brought up the low pay and expenses not being processed for months at a time about 10 years ago at a company that no longer exists. You have definitely been observant of this culture in Canada

[Bug_Stomper_01]

What I have found, those that don't see the wage structure as being a problem, usually have a spouse who makes more than they do. In a sense ride on her coat tails. They just trudge through life not having to be the bread winner and in a sense have a sugar momma they can depend on. They get in positions of management eventually and are the greatest reason for the wage stagnation. To the OP, marry an intelligent woman who can out earn you.

I know SEVERAL managers that are this kind of beta…. It’s really sickening to watch a grown man be so dependent on his wife and take his frustrations out on up and coming talent by setting low wages and crap work arrangements.

[Found]

People get divorced, travel, work shifts and weekends in other occupations. Working in manufacturing also will get you laid off when recessions hit and people aren’t buying new whatever.
I have had a good run in aviation, could I have made more, could I have had more time off, who knows. What I do know if I talk to friends in other careers they all seem to have similar complaints.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

People get divorced, travel, work shifts and weekends in other occupations. Working in manufacturing also will get you laid off when recessions hit and people aren’t buying new whatever.
I have had a good run in aviation, could I have made more, could I have had more time off, who knows. What I do know if I talk to friends in other careers they all seem to have similar complaints.

except they’re all paid appropriately….. who knows? I KNOW

[Thew T]

My advice to you as a student is that most of the negative comments that you see in online forums can't be vetted so you should take them with a grain of salt as these types of forums tend to cater to malcontents.

For example, some people will gripe about being underpaid no matter how much they are making as they see their worth as far more than it likely actually is. This is true with any profession.

But what is the real reason that the person isn't making what they feel that they should? What is their attitude like on the job? Can they function as a team member or do they bitch and complain to anyone that will listen? Have they bettered themselves at all during their career e.g. taken any business or management courses? Do they do the bare minimum in their job and that's all? Again those types are in every profession, success lies in not being one.

As for "the industry is in the toilet" comments you will hear this from all types of professionals and tradespeople, its as old as time began. You should always be forward looking with your career that will lead you to the best companies and highest earning potential. Get the experience and skills that you know are in demand and keep an eye on new trends that you can gain expertise in - that's how you become invaluable. You will likely need to change employers multiple times in your career to get to the salary and position that you ultimately want, again that is the same with every profession.

You should not feel discouraged if this is something that you are passionate about and really want to do. Positive attitudes and eager applicants that have the skills will always be in demand and if you are doing well in school and motivated then you are well on your way.

[YYCAME]

I enjoy my job as an AME. I've worked in the industry for almost 20 years with 5 different employers. Here is my experience.
Less than half my graduating class ended up in aviation due to the struggle to find your first apprenticeship job at that time. I applied everywhere and maybe 4 months later finally got a position. I turned down one apprenticeship position because they literally were offering minimum wage and I couldn't afford to live on that and they wouldn't go up a few dollars. The first company I worked for went bankrupt within half a year but at least I had made a few connections to step into another apprenticeship. I didn't have a choice about working overtime in those early days and saw my wife in passing with my afternoon/night shift so moving to an airline was a great opportunity to have a family life. Finding jobs gets much easier as you gain experience/licenses/personal connections.

The industry problem is that there are very few large employers. You will not have many options especially with regards to where you want to live and work (single employer towns etc) which means cost of living can be a real problem if you are not already in the real estate market. You will learn more doing GA work and there are some good small companies but they won't need to hire often and it tends to be a harder life since it all falls on you. Airlines give you much more freedom to walk away at the end of a shift without a care and let someone take over a job. In addition, unions take away much of the stress of negotiating your pay/benefits/rights etc. If you have the opportunity I would try to start early at a big company to climb the ladder since often the wage scales take a long time to reach a decent pay level. I also enjoy working with a larger group of people rather then by myself all the time.

Other trades often have a much bigger range of employment options and this helps push wages up in general whereas in Canada we are largely forced to rely on an arbitrator to decide what is fair since we haven't had the right to strike for some time. Whatever the big companies set as wages then governs what the smaller ones have to pay keep people. Large employers also use this leverage over the job market to set wages and apply for immigrant labour permits rather than raise pay.

Do I recommend it? Yes but there is a lot of uncertainty and risk. I enjoy my job and work with lots of great people but you can find that anywhere, not just aviation. I don't mind working night shifts so that helps. I've also seen a lot of people get mistreated and pushed out by low wages, poor working conditions, lack of job opportunities so I feel lucky to be in a secure position. This is why I recommend airline work early if you can get it since climbing the ladder and union seniority means you are under less pressure to be the best just to survive. In my experience it is very rare for people to go back to small companies once they experience the work life balance this gives. If anything, they use their vacation to work contract jobs to make more money on the side if they want to do more with the free courses and experience they received in those positions.

There is a wide range of jobs in aviation and personally I would get very bored in manufacturing or heavy maintenance environment. I prefer learning new things and the variety that line maintenance brings but that's just me. There are also management/QA type careers that people move into if you enjoy aviation from a desk. Depending where you live though, just take what you can get and look for better opportunities as you go. If you don't find an aviation job though, you can leverage this training into something like wind turbines or other technical jobs so you do have options. Good luck!

[Bug_Stomper_01]

My advice to you as a student is that most of the negative comments that you see in online forums can't be vetted so you should take them with a grain of salt as these types of forums tend to cater to malcontents.

For example, some people will gripe about being underpaid no matter how much they are making as they see their worth as far more than it likely actually is. This is true with any profession.

But what is the real reason that the person isn't making what they feel that they should? What is their attitude like on the job? Can they function as a team member or do they bitch and complain to anyone that will listen? Have they bettered themselves at all during their career e.g. taken any business or management courses? Do they do the bare minimum in their job and that's all? Again those types are in every profession, success lies in not being one.

As for "the industry is in the toilet" comments you will hear this from all types of professionals and tradespeople, its as old as time began. You should always be forward looking with your career that will lead you to the best companies and highest earning potential. Get the experience and skills that you know are in demand and keep an eye on new trends that you can gain expertise in - that's how you become invaluable. You will likely need to change employers multiple times in your career to get to the salary and position that you ultimately want, again that is the same with every profession.

You should not feel discouraged if this is something that you are passionate about and really want to do. Positive attitudes and eager applicants that have the skills will always be in demand and if you are doing well in school and motivated then you are well on your way.

You clearly haven’t seen much outside of aviation have you. A positive attitude and working +100 hours a week for 20 years you will still be behind someone else in another profession with that kind of effort. I like the trade, but Canadas industry is a joke, I know it, most others know it. There’s a reason licensed personnel are diminished in Canada, wake up and smell the coffee.