AC-JAZZ ALPA merger?

[skyhighh]

Hi,
Just a random question, if AC pilots decided to join ALPA and then for some reason Air Canada decided to merge with Jazz. Would the two group merge together using date of hire for seniority? Or would that be voted on?
Not debating if Air Canada would merge with Jazz, just wondering what would happen if they did.

[RockSalty]

It’d be a cold day in hell before a regional merging with mainline would get DOH seniority integration.

Jazz pilots would get stapled to the bottom of the list in this scenario and expecting anything else is insanity.

[negroni]

Hi,
Just a random question, if AC pilots decided to join ALPA and then for some reason Air Canada decided to merge with Jazz. Would the two group merge together using date of hire for seniority? Or would that be voted on?
Not debating if Air Canada would merge with Jazz, just wondering what would happen if they did.

Oh just give it a rest.

Go away. Seriously.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Mainline pilots say no, jazz pilots say yes. It’s up to luck and chance, such as everything in aviation. Not one persons opinion.

Could happen with fences in place, or Jazz could lose their cpa to someone underbidding flying and cease to exist. Who knows?

[skyhighh]

Hi,
Just a random question, if AC pilots decided to join ALPA and then for some reason Air Canada decided to merge with Jazz. Would the two group merge together using date of hire for seniority? Or would that be voted on?
Not debating if Air Canada would merge with Jazz, just wondering what would happen if they did.

Oh just give it a rest.

Go away. Seriously.

What’s wrong with you? Just a simple question…

[canadian_aviator_4]

Hi,
Just a random question, if AC pilots decided to join ALPA and then for some reason Air Canada decided to merge with Jazz. Would the two group merge together using date of hire for seniority? Or would that be voted on?
Not debating if Air Canada would merge with Jazz, just wondering what would happen if they did.

Oh just give it a rest.

Go away. Seriously.

What’s wrong with you? Just a simple question…

Same question regarding Negroni. Maybe drank too many?

[jpilot77]

Hi,
Just a random question, if AC pilots decided to join ALPA and then for some reason Air Canada decided to merge with Jazz. Would the two group merge together using date of hire for seniority? Or would that be voted on?
Not debating if Air Canada would merge with Jazz, just wondering what would happen if they did.

Considering that AC’s current list isn’t date of hire (due to the AC Canadian merger) hard to see how date of hire would work in an acquisition.

[Cavalier44]

Hi,
Just a random question, if AC pilots decided to join ALPA and then for some reason Air Canada decided to merge with Jazz. Would the two group merge together using date of hire for seniority? Or would that be voted on?
Not debating if Air Canada would merge with Jazz, just wondering what would happen if they did.

Oh just give it a rest.

Go away. Seriously.

What’s wrong with you? Just a simple question…

A) No one on this forum can give you a definitive answer to your question. The best that can be done is to make an educated guess based on prior precedent. In any case, Air Canada's seniority list is not a date-of-hire seniority list due to the previous merger with Canadian Airlines. That would make any future date-of-hire seniority list integration effectively impossible, and therefore an alternative method would be required. No one knows exactly what that would look like, and in any case, would almost certainly be subject to a vote of approval from the pilot group.

B) There seems to be no indication that Air Canada has any desire to purchase Jazz in its entirety - I'm not sure what the rationale would be behind such a decision. It would create several new problems, while not solving Air Canada's main problem - which is recruiting enough new pilots to meet the demand for the forecasted expansion for Summer 2023 and beyond. I'm not sure why this rumour seems to be circulating lately on AvCanada, and I'm unsure of what your motivation is for bringing it up beyond trying to rile up anonymous strangers on an online forum.

[negroni]

The rumour is coming out of Montreal, from everything I've been hearing. Which doesn't surprise me. They love their fear tactics over there, first it was Jazz, then it was the boogy man Air Transat, now it's ALPA and Jazz again (fear tactics).

I really hope the pilots in Montreal start to wake up soon and demand more from their leadership in that base. Thankfully their past reps have resigned, but sadly the new ones were acclaimed. Is the former YUL Chair is still peddling his fear on his personal facebook fan page?

[skyhighh]

Oh just give it a rest.

Go away. Seriously.

What’s wrong with you? Just a simple question…

A) No one on this forum can give you a definitive answer to your question. The best that can be done is to make an educated guess based on prior precedent. In any case, Air Canada's seniority list is not a date-of-hire seniority list due to the previous merger with Canadian Airlines. That would make any future date-of-hire seniority list integration effectively impossible, and therefore an alternative method would be required. No one knows exactly what that would look like, and in any case, would almost certainly be subject to a vote of approval from the pilot group.

B) There seems to be no indication that Air Canada has any desire to purchase Jazz in its entirety - I'm not sure what the rationale would be behind such a decision. It would create several new problems, while not solving Air Canada's main problem - which is recruiting enough new pilots to meet the demand for the forecasted expansion for Summer 2023 and beyond. I'm not sure why this rumour seems to be circulating lately on AvCanada, and I'm unsure of what your motivation is for bringing it up beyond trying to rile up anonymous strangers on an online forum.

Thank you for your answer I appreciate it. The merger between AC and Jazz is something I’ve been hearing a lot in the past few years and even more lately as Jazz is having a hard time finding pilots. Merging the two companies would fix a lot of problem. Would that be financially doable? I have no idea but nothing surprises me from Air Canada anymore. The latest MOA shows how desperate AC is to fix the problem with Jazz, even proposing LOAs so that new AC hires could keep flying for Jazz in order to fix the problem they created. Hence why I think the rumour of a merger is happening.

The reason I asked is because of how nasty the merger with Canadian Airlines was and I wonder if something like this could happen again, especially with the same union group. One of the other reason I brought it up is to have a definitive answer and debunk the rumour that AC pilots would lose seniority over Jazz ones. Since nobody seems to know, the question remains without answer, hence rumours growing stronger. I have no interest in riling people up, just trying to figure this out.
Air Canada will never have an issue hiring pilots, they have a massive pile of resumes and worst comes to worst they will just hire with less experience just like every other company did. If Europeans can fly jets with 250h pilots… so can we. It would suck but it seems they would rather do that than pay us more.

Negroni: The fact that this rumour might be coming from Montreal wouldn’t surprise me. As mentioned above, my goal isn’t to create drama or rile people up. Just trying to figure out what is what.

[fish4life]

ALPA or not any merger goes one of 2 ways;
A) The 2 sides agree to an equitable seniority list integration
B) The 2 sides don’t agree and it ends up in front of an arbitrator then who knows what they decide

[Sharklasers]

In the wildly unlikely event of a roll up between mainline and Jazz the Jazz ALPA MEC will strongly advocate for the best interests of their membership, which in that case would be a DOH type deal. They will use the “precedent” they set with GGN and Sky to try and sell it to the inevitable abitrator. Ideally the AC ACPA (or ALPA?) MEC would advocate strongly for what is in the best interest of the AC pilots.

[alkaseltzer]

Hi,
Just a random question, if AC pilots decided to join ALPA and then for some reason Air Canada decided to merge with Jazz. Would the two group merge together using date of hire for seniority? Or would that be voted on?
Not debating if Air Canada would merge with Jazz, just wondering what would happen if they did.

Look at past precedent, not what people wish would happen. Jazz’s union will want the best for their pilots and rightfully so. Air Georgian and Skyregional. DOH. Why should a senior Jazz pilot have to sacrifice his quality of life, pay to be at the bottom of a merger? Doesn’t work like that.

Canadian argued well for their pilots, in a ratio style agreement.

How about take this one step further? ALPA for Westjet, Transat, Sunwing, Air Canada, Cargojet, Jazz, and probably one or two more. The airlines then offer to use ALPA as a hiring agency and ALPA retains full control of pilots, essentially becoming a contractor of pilots to the airlines. Or get legislated to. You know - the Canadian way to do things.

More reason for a junior ALPA pilot or even a senior ALPA pilot at a small operator to want all airlines to “be united”.

An ALPA merger is a one way ticket to worsening conditions. Pay attention to Canada’s track record, specifically ALPA operators.

Now ask yourself the OP’s question. If they do merge, we will for sure have senior Jazz pilots as 787 captains.

[Cavalier44]

Thank you for your answer I appreciate it. The merger between AC and Jazz is something I’ve been hearing a lot in the past few years and even more lately as Jazz is having a hard time finding pilots. Merging the two companies would fix a lot of problem. Would that be financially doable? I have no idea but nothing surprises me from Air Canada anymore. The latest MOA shows how desperate AC is to fix the problem with Jazz, even proposing LOAs so that new AC hires could keep flying for Jazz in order to fix the problem they created. Hence why I think the rumour of a merger is happening.

Think about it for a moment. Jazz is short-staffed, and they're having pilot retention and recruitment issues. Air Canada is short-staffed as well and is having issues recruiting qualified, experienced candidates. The training system at Air Canada is not designed to take low-time pilots and put them into the right seats of heavy, widebody aircraft. Perhaps Encore can take a 250-hour pilot and put them in the right seat of a Q400, but Air Canada is certainly not going to be in the position of taking the same pilot and putting them in the right seat of a B777 - it's simply not going to happen.

Taking one short-staffed airline and merging it with another short-staffed airline does not fix any problems, it exacerbates them. What Air Canada needs is for Jazz to get their house in order regarding staffing, so that Air Canada has a well-defined and consistent pool of experienced 705 Captains to hire from. Perhaps Jazz will have to increase their compensation in order to make that happen. I don't see how Air Canada taking on Jazz's problems through direct ownership solves their staffing issues, it just gives them a whole other pile of problems to contend with, not to mention increased labour costs as well, thereby defeating the entire idea of contracting regional flying out to a third party.

[bcflyer]

Another attempt at fear mongering based on absolutely nothing more than a rumour created by the old school ACPA diehards who lost their jobs and don’t want ALPA. Give it a rest.

[negroni]

In the wildly unlikely event of a roll up between mainline and Jazz the Jazz ALPA MEC will strongly advocate for the best interests of their membership, which in that case would be a DOH type deal. They will use the “precedent” they set with GGN and Sky to try and sell it to the inevitable abitrator. Ideally the AC ACPA (or ALPA?) MEC would advocate strongly for what is in the best interest of the AC pilots.

Lol the precedent they set?

That wasn't a merger my guy. What happened with ggn and skr will be irrelevant.

[negroni]

Another attempt at fear mongering based on absolutely nothing more than a rumour created by the old school ACPA diehards who lost their jobs and don’t want ALPA. Give it a rest.

[Alkasultzer]

If merging is a concern, I'd be damn sure to be with the union that has the most amount of experience in the matter - ALPA

Imagine the dumpster fire of acpa doing a merger. Yikes

[loose]

Last I checked and that’s about mid summer, Jazz only had under 60 +\- ATPL rated FO’s, and that includes guys that don’t even want to go left seat. Same time TC was only processing about 100ATPL applications per year, not a reduction but that’s all they get! Now, not everybody at Jazz is at home dreaming AC calling them. Matter of fact I’d probably argue top 700 guys there don’t give two sh*Ts about AC and would rather go fly a Cessna before joining unkie AC. Here are the facts right now,1) if AC starts taking pilots at Jazz, they’re gonna need to park a lot of planes and a lot of them too! 2) AC is contractually obligated to respect the 60% flow, it’s not gonna happen this year but that’s what’s the contract says! What I see happening is AC is absorbing Jazz but the same time keep the two entities separate, more or less. It’ll be BOL, however, Provisions will be made to allow flow from right seat AC to left seat Jazz. As for The old guard at Jazz well, most will be gone in 5-10 years anyways, they can be offered early retirement or stay if they chose, it’s not like they’ll lose much anyway. Many will stay for their DB pensions I’m sure. Seniority wise, they will be junior to any AC FO joining Jazz left seat, but all in all it’s fair compromise. You don’t like it, take the early retirement and walk. In this scenario, AC won’t even have to get rid of 4 yrs flat pay, AC will be staffed, Hazz planes will be staffed, flow continues ( this time you’ll actually have guys want to stay left seat at Jazz and wait out the 4 years), you get bumped well, go fly an airbus or boeing. Guys moving to Jazz left seat get better pay than flat, maybe better schedule/base. It’s a win win. If AC can’t source enough, well, take Jazz FOs , those can be replaced OTS better than CAs.
Anyway lots of bs I’ve said,,,,, or is it????

[hithere]

The rumour is coming out of Montreal, from everything I've been hearing. Which doesn't surprise me. They love their fear tactics over there, first it was Jazz, then it was the boogy man Air Transat, now it's ALPA and Jazz again (fear tactics).

I really hope the pilots in Montreal start to wake up soon and demand more from their leadership in that base. Thankfully their past reps have resigned, but sadly the new ones were acclaimed. Is the former YUL Chair is still peddling his fear on his personal facebook fan page?

How have the new YUL reps been acclaimed? Acclaimed from what? Are you saying that the YUL reps have already been replaced with candidates who ran unopposed? If so are they P4C leaning or old school hard core ACPA?