AME pay scales on the rise !

[RoAF-Mig21]

I'm sorry I don't have anything important to add, but as a pilot, I have to say:

WHATEVER AMEs MAKE IS NOT ENOUGH. YOU GUYS NEED MORE MONEY FOR THE "THANKLESS" WORK YOU DO.

I really hope you get paid what you're really worth... because in the end, I go home to my wife and kid because you guys give me a plane safe to fly.

For that alone I will always have the respect for AMEs.

[Pat Richard]

thanks for your kind comments, and FWIW, I've met a few pilots with similar attiudes over the years but you are more the exception rather than the rule.

It does help to hear that kind of supportove comment because we usually never do from anybody, but ultimately the lack of dollars needs to change.

Im curious about the mig 21 in your profile pic/username. Is there a back story there?

[RoAF-Mig21]

Im curious about the mig 21 in your profile pic/username. Is there a back story there?

Nothing exciting regarding me, unfortunately. My old man was a captain (ret.) in the Romanian Air Force. I will never live up to his acomplishments, no matter how much I try. I gave him a grandkid, so he's happy enough

[Bede]

Why won’t employers post wages? Let’s see here and speculate. Are they embarrassed? Are they playing you for stupid? What exactly is the goal here? Enquiring minds want to know what the sour flavour of the day employer is hoping to achieve by not posting at least the resemblance of an hourly wage.

I don’t think posting wages is important. Why? Because you know your worth and you should negotiate. Who cares what they offer- make a counter. Is there an opening in a city you’d live in? If yes, apply. If you get offered the job start negotiating your wage. If it’s satisfactory, then either take the job or use it to negotiate a pay raise wit your current employer. If they don’t want to negotiate, they can start the lengthy hiring process over with someone else. Eventually they’ll get the idea.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Why won’t employers post wages? Let’s see here and speculate. Are they embarrassed? Are they playing you for stupid? What exactly is the goal here? Enquiring minds want to know what the sour flavour of the day employer is hoping to achieve by not posting at least the resemblance of an hourly wage.

I don’t think posting wages is important. Why? Because you know your worth and you should negotiate. Who cares what they offer- make a counter. Is there an opening in a city you’d live in? If yes, apply. If you get offered the job start negotiating your wage. If it’s satisfactory, then either take the job or use it to negotiate a pay raise wit your current employer. If they don’t want to negotiate, they can start the lengthy hiring process over with someone else. Eventually they’ll get the idea.

I can say without a doubt you sell more of anything with a price tag, but, that thing has to be the thing you’re selling.

The best thing to do if a candidate is serious about the job ad is to call and ask HR what the salary is, the response should be enough to make a decision as to wether you should even apply.

Listing a job without any kind of wage attached is indicative of slimy “negotiation” (gentle euphemism for “deception”) tactics in any industry.
I know for a fact employers do it to draw more naive licenses under false pretenses of elaborate, grandiose, confusing, and disingenuous job ads, designed to sucker someone into a crap job for low pay and unrealistic expectations.
Once they have the candidate jump through interview and pre-screening hurdles avoiding all discussion of remuneration what usually happens is a job offer slid across the table with a grossly low figure. At that point there’s been an enormous amount of energy spent by the potential candidate with high expectations of “competitive wages” etc. who 9/10 times feels pressured to take the job regardless. Managers will shower the hesitant and discouraged candidate with every promise and praise under the sun (never in writing) as to why they should take the job despite the obvious disappointment.
This method, as immoral as it is does work on most candidates unfortunately, it’s borderline illegal in some instances (premeditated constructive dismissal territory).

Those candidates that go back with a higher figure in mind or better schedule etc. are usually ghosted (sometimes blacklisted if the company is organized enough).
Management pulls another adequate resume, and the process starts over. It’s a boilerplate process and costs the company nothing, but almost always comes under budget for salary targets as there are always enough resumes to draw from.
Aviation in Canada is probably one of the few if not only dominating industries listing jobs without a wage attached for that reason alone, to come under budget.

Providing pay information is essential so both parties don’t waste each-others time. In the USA you’d be hard pressed to find a pilot or A&P job listed without pay info, and ones that are, usually fall under part 91 ma and pa operators playing the same game mentioned above.

Bottom line: List the damn pay-scale, it’s even illegal in some states and provinces not to for the aforementioned reasons. The only reason the salary is not listed is deception and bad faith.

[-42]

My only question was and is why the employer wouldn’t list or post the wage. Any employer within a collective agreement must. Why employers outside of a collective agreement don’t is plain weird. If I was to want an employee that was really good at their job and could provide me with peace of mind why would I want them to negotiate their wage? Seems a bit counterproductive. Have I negotiated before yes however I did it for fun knowing I wouldn’t take the job anyways. In fact once I was sent a ticket before I even accepted. Sheer desperation by the employer however the wage as I recall was roughly 40% more than advertised. The same company has continually advertised with “industry standard” wages……usually every few months go figure. Just sayin.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Why won’t employers post wages? Let’s see here and speculate. Are they embarrassed? Are they playing you for stupid? What exactly is the goal here? Enquiring minds want to know what the sour flavour of the day employer is hoping to achieve by not posting at least the resemblance of an hourly wage. The usual “competitive”, “industry standard” should be a big red warning flag with flashing lights for anyone willing to sacrifice their life for said potential employer. Good luck on your future endeavours.

See above, that’s my take from both having been an employee (AME and PRM and other higher management roles) several times in Canada. That’s my take but I’m sure there’s more underhanded reasons I’ve missed here.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

My only question was and is why the employer wouldn’t list or post the wage.

See my last post above

[Bede]

Listing a job without any kind of wage attached is indicative of slimy “negotiation” (gentle euphemism for “deception”) tactics in any industry.
I know for a fact employers do it to draw more naive licenses under false pretenses of elaborate, grandiose, confusing, and disingenuous job ads, designed to sucker someone into a crap job for low pay and unrealistic expectations.
Once they have the candidate jump through interview and pre-screening hurdles avoiding all discussion of remuneration what usually happens is a job offer slid across the table with a grossly low figure. At that point there’s been an enormous amount of energy spent by the potential candidate with high expectations of “competitive wages” etc. who 9/10 times feels pressured to take the job regardless. Managers will shower the hesitant and discouraged candidate with every promise and praise under the sun (never in writing) as to why they should take the job despite the obvious disappointment.
This method, as immoral as it is does work on most candidates unfortunately, it’s borderline illegal in some instances (premeditated constructive dismissal territory).

That's a fair argument. I look back at my career and think of all the money that I left on the table because I didn't know how to negotiate and just took whatever was offered. (It's actually worse than that- I used to look down on people who took the screws to the employer and negotiated hard.) Employers will always low ball you- just like we lowball people when we want to buy a car. Unless you're at a union shop, wages and working conditions are legally negotiable. If the employer doesn't want to negotiate, that's their loss. Word seems to get out who the decent outfits are and the one's to avoid. The one's to avoid seem to get lower quality employees and have a habit of going under. (I'm thinking of you GGN.)

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Listing a job without any kind of wage attached is indicative of slimy “negotiation” (gentle euphemism for “deception”) tactics in any industry.
I know for a fact employers do it to draw more naive licenses under false pretenses of elaborate, grandiose, confusing, and disingenuous job ads, designed to sucker someone into a crap job for low pay and unrealistic expectations.
Once they have the candidate jump through interview and pre-screening hurdles avoiding all discussion of remuneration what usually happens is a job offer slid across the table with a grossly low figure. At that point there’s been an enormous amount of energy spent by the potential candidate with high expectations of “competitive wages” etc. who 9/10 times feels pressured to take the job regardless. Managers will shower the hesitant and discouraged candidate with every promise and praise under the sun (never in writing) as to why they should take the job despite the obvious disappointment.
This method, as immoral as it is does work on most candidates unfortunately, it’s borderline illegal in some instances (premeditated constructive dismissal territory).

That's a fair argument. I look back at my career and think of all the money that I left on the table because I didn't know how to negotiate and just took whatever was offered. (It's actually worse than that- I used to look down on people who took the screws to the employer and negotiated hard.) Employers will always low ball you- just like we lowball people when we want to buy a car. Unless you're at a union shop, wages and working conditions are legally negotiable. If the employer doesn't want to negotiate, that's their loss. Word seems to get out who the decent outfits are and the one's to avoid. The one's to avoid seem to get lower quality employees and have a habit of going under. (I'm thinking of you GGN.)

Employers always get the best out of new eager licenses, especially in Canadian aviation, that is a fact.
There is a bit of a sickness still alive in Canadian aviation where new hires are made to think (by the industry / employers) that they should just be thankful to have any job offer at all, while conversely for decades the industry is crying pilot and AME shortages since the 1980’s. Which is it? If there is a shortage in any industry, it needs to make employment more attractive (better pay and work conditions) to attract more personnel. In reality it’s never been a genuine argument on its face.
There is, and always has been a surplus of licensed personnel, and every employer that’s been around for a minute damn well knows it. The advent of internet, social media, job boards / employer reviews, and forums like this one are killing off that mentality, and poking some massive holes in their underhanded games, and I think it’s a good thing.
Employers are still pushing it as far as how much they can get away with however, even to the point of sitting aircraft rather than adjusting wages to attract personnel (I witnessed this in Canada this summer in the helicopter industry). I offered up several experienced guys who were ghosted when they gave said operator their rates.

That’s the reality that needs to be assessed by any potential candidate, and the word has never been more out than today.
Experience and type ratings / endorsement carrots (real or not) don’t pay the bills, and don’t afford employees a lifestyle attractive to people that want a life outside the job. Day rates for 16-20 hours a day seven days a week, missed family time and eventual divorces and other personal problems for some because of that abuse is not ok.
We’ve all heard similar lines “well that’s just the way it is” or “that’s aviation if you don’t like it get out” or “that’s helicopters”. Most of whom are now in management positions hiding from that misery themselves.
We have all done the chasing experience thing, and it’s never been worth it for most I know in hindsight, with the amount of sacrifice vs what the employee nets at the end of the day / their career.

Wage and realistic employment condition transparency is a good thing for employees and employers. It brings everything up for the employee and employer, it does mean paying appropriately however.

[Bede]

Totally agree but there’s a productivity differential between new and experienced AMEs. Eventually people learn. The ones that don’t will lose.

I know a little bit about twisting wrenches. Maybe like a second or third year apprentice. I once did an engine change with an experienced AME. We each did one side. I think he was done in half the time that I was. If I’m getting paid $30/hr and he $50, his employer will still be better off than mine.

[digits_]

But hey, if you like you can uproot your whole life to make 60k USD
viewtopic.php?t=176919

[digits_]

I don’t think posting wages is important. Why? Because you know your worth and you should negotiate. Who cares what they offer- make a counter. Is there an opening in a city you’d live in? If yes, apply. If you get offered the job start negotiating your wage. If it’s satisfactory, then either take the job or use it to negotiate a pay raise wit your current employer. If they don’t want to negotiate, they can start the lengthy hiring process over with someone else. Eventually they’ll get the idea.

I think both sides would save a lot of time if the employer is offering 50k in the ad and you want 100k. That's the kind of spread you could realistically encounter. This is not just an AME, aviation or Canadian thing.

I suspect a major factor is they don't want current employees to know they would pay a new hire more than their current salary. Which is a whole other reason why a realistic pay range would need to be mandated to be posted in job ads. Some states and countries do it and it didn't kill their economy.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Totally agree but there’s a productivity differential between new and experienced AMEs. Eventually people learn. The ones that don’t will lose.

I know a little bit about twisting wrenches. Maybe like a second or third year apprentice. I once did an engine change with an experienced AME. We each did one side. I think he was done in half the time that I was. If I’m getting paid $30/hr and he $50, his employer will still be better off than mine.

It’s not just speed, but quality of work, inherent knowledge, and safety are factors as well.
He will also know things (in experience on type) and years of technical experience in general, that a fresh inexperienced technician set of eyes can’t yet.
We are constantly inspecting even while doing something as basic as an engine change, and that’s usually when we find things that wouldn’t otherwise be caught until a failure of some sort (during unscheduled or high # cycle scheduled / uncommon maintenance).
I can’t count the amount of times I’ve taken over an aircraft from a new guy that had been working with and said “WTF!”.
It takes f’n years and tons of commitment / continuing education to hone a good AME.
It is however the lowest rung on the ladder unfortunately that AME wages are set by “1 to no more than 3 years licensed” as I’ve actually seen in AME job ads in the last few months.
Non AME employers (and some questionable AME employers) do see maintenance as a big expense, and see a 1st year license as valuable as a 15-20 year license with the same endorsements.
They do legally have the same certification authority, the experience level is the part that most employers in Canada no longer acknowledge for that very reason (same license, same signing authority, same worth).
That is not a correct measurement of an AME’s value, and a precedent that has run off many higher time guys in Canada in recent years.
Their experience and level of competence has a value that should be remunerated. Experience and skill is definitely appreciated in the USA, most operators are starving for it.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

But hey, if you like you can uproot your whole life to make 60k USD
viewtopic.php?t=176919

60-90USD, which is more than some in Canada max pay numerically in CAD$. I make much more working 1/10th of what that job would entail.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I don’t think posting wages is important. Why? Because you know your worth and you should negotiate. Who cares what they offer- make a counter. Is there an opening in a city you’d live in? If yes, apply. If you get offered the job start negotiating your wage. If it’s satisfactory, then either take the job or use it to negotiate a pay raise wit your current employer. If they don’t want to negotiate, they can start the lengthy hiring process over with someone else. Eventually they’ll get the idea.

I think both sides would save a lot of time if the employer is offering 50k in the ad and you want 100k. That's the kind of spread you could realistically encounter. This is not just an AME, aviation or Canadian thing.

I suspect a major factor is they don't want current employees to know they would pay a new hire more than their current salary. Which is a whole other reason why a realistic pay range would need to be mandated to be posted in job ads. Some states and countries do it and it didn't kill their economy.

They don’t post wages for several reasons and pay transparency in aviation (a federally regulated industry) I do think as I interpret things, are legally supposed to be transparent (posted numerically in job ads). Posting wages would absolutely give better leverage from the workforce to employers.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I don’t think posting wages is important. Why? Because you know your worth and you should negotiate. Who cares what they offer- make a counter. Is there an opening in a city you’d live in? If yes, apply. If you get offered the job start negotiating your wage. If it’s satisfactory, then either take the job or use it to negotiate a pay raise wit your current employer. If they don’t want to negotiate, they can start the lengthy hiring process over with someone else. Eventually they’ll get the idea.

I think both sides would save a lot of time if the employer is offering 50k in the ad and you want 100k. That's the kind of spread you could realistically encounter. This is not just an AME, aviation or Canadian thing.

I suspect a major factor is they don't want current employees to know they would pay a new hire more than their current salary. Which is a whole other reason why a realistic pay range would need to be mandated to be posted in job ads. Some states and countries do it and it didn't kill their economy.

I started this thread in the general forum on that very topic. No bites yet.

viewtopic.php?t=176897

[helicopterray]

But hey, if you like you can uproot your whole life to make 60k USD
viewtopic.php?t=176919

60-90USD, which is more than some in Canada max pay numerically in CAD$. I make much more working 1/10th of what that job would entail.

It's depressing when that is called 'high pay' in the ad.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

But hey, if you like you can uproot your whole life to make 60k USD
viewtopic.php?t=176919

60-90USD, which is more than some in Canada max pay numerically in CAD$. I make much more working 1/10th of what that job would entail.

It's depressing when that is called 'high pay' in the ad.

Likely a part 91 shit show, no thanks.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

But hey, if you like you can uproot your whole life to make 60k USD
viewtopic.php?t=176919

60-90USD, which is more than some in Canada max pay numerically in CAD$. I make much more working 1/10th of what that job would entail.

It's depressing when that is called 'high pay' in the ad.

The fact that someone will bite infuriates me. I made more than that on one astar in the arctic 20 f’n years ago and was home more than half of the year