Steep turns

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Scud.runner
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Steep turns

Post by Scud.runner »

Hi
I'm preperaing for my PPL , and I'm having issue with my steep turn. the way i excute a steep turn is :

Roll, Rudder, Pitch back, add power

I believe my problem is that I don't notice the tiny changes in attitude, which lead to a decent or climb during a steep turn.

so after I execute the turn and my eyes outside ( and I believe I'm not descending or climbing), I glance at the instrument to make sure everything is good only to find out that I'm either descending / Climbing or not using too much rudder.

any tips on steep turn in general or how to notice minute changes in attitude if nose goes up or down

thanks
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albertdesalvo
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Re: Steep turns

Post by albertdesalvo »

It can only be a coincidence, unless... Hedley, is that you? :rolleyes: :smt040 :rolleyes:
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Bede
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Re: Steep turns

Post by Bede »

One thing I always stress to students from early on is get in the habit of memorizing pictures. When your flight instructor demonstrates a perfect steep turn (or stall, or spin, etc.) look at the picture. Where does the horizon cross the cowling? Is it the 3rd rivet from the spinner? Or the second? Memorize that picture and fly the aircraft so that you have the picture.

The second thing is that you should be learn to feel what a steep turn feels like. A coordinated 45 degree steep turn is a 1.4G turn. Eventually you'll feel it. Once you get to that point you can often get into any other airplane and nail the steep turn based solely on feeling 1.4G.

Third, is your ball centered? This is often the most overlooked aspect of the steep turn. The ball is never in the middle and so even if you nail the steep turn that day, it may not look and feel like it does on another day when you lazily have the ball somewhere else.

Last, there's no substitute for practice. Do a few steep turns every time you go flying. I usually just have students do a 180 left followed by 180 to the right just to practice the entry and exit- the parts that most students struggle with.
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praveen4143
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Re: Steep turns

Post by praveen4143 »

I'd pay closer attention to where you are looking during the turn. Too often, I find that when the steep turn isn't going well, it is because the student is looking "ahead of the turn" like in a car, except in an airplane that is on the low side of the aircraft and at the ground. I recommend that you look straight ahead and that will give you a good idea on what the nose is doing around the pitch axis.

Another thing to consider also is the use of Elevator Trim during the turn. This can be good for some, bad for others since you have to trim going into the turn and also coming out of the turn. YMMV.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by photofly »

praveen4143 wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:47 pm I'd pay closer attention to where you are looking during the turn. Too often, I find that when the steep turn isn't going well, it is because the student is looking "ahead of the turn" like in a car, except in an airplane that is on the low side of the aircraft and at the ground. I recommend that you look straight ahead and that will give you a good idea on what the nose is doing around the pitch axis.
For safety reasons it’s important to spend some time looking ahead of the turn, just like in a car. The airplane with which you have a collision risk won’t be seen looking looking straight ahead. You do need to “perform and maintain an effective lookout before and during the turn”, after all.

The steep turn exercise is all about division of attention - inside, outside…, inside, outside…, inside, outside…
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Bede
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Re: Steep turns

Post by Bede »

I was just going to say^.

Failure to maintain a lookout is an automatic fail on a flight test.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Steep turns

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

A bit of thread creep but Rich Stowell has some great videos, one of my favorites is "Learn to Turn".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWbk3jn0GK4

I would suggest most instructors don't understand the concepts he is showing.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by praveen4143 »

Nowhere did I say not to perform an effective lookout. :smt102

My point was that the attitude, specifically when it comes to pitch is what makes the difference on an effective steep turn and the reason I felt the OP was having an issue with altitude control.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by photofly »

praveen4143 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:12 am Nowhere did I say not to perform an effective lookout. :smt102 .
For the avoidance of doubt, you absolutely did not say not to perform an effective lookout.

However it would be easy to interpret the following elements of your advice:
when the steep turn isn't going well, it is because the student is looking "ahead of the turn" like in a car, …. I recommend that you look straight ahead
…in a way that you didn’t intend, which is to not look ahead of the turn at all, and only look straight ahead. On the off chance that someone might come to that misunderstanding I thought it helpful to them to point it out. No slight intended.

In respect of the element of attention paid to judging the correct pitch, yes, that’s easiest to do straight ahead. The poster may also have an issue with where “straight” actually is. If sitting left of centre in a side-by-side airplane it’s easy to use the prop spinner or cowl center as the sight line, which is of course not straight. So perhaps this student could work on an appreciation of where the horizon should sit, in front of their nose, too.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:29 am
praveen4143 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:12 am Nowhere did I say not to perform an effective lookout. :smt102 .
For the avoidance of doubt, you absolutely did not say not to perform an effective lookout.

However it would be easy to interpret the following elements of your advice:
when the steep turn isn't going well, it is because the student is looking "ahead of the turn" like in a car, …. I recommend that you look straight ahead
…in a way that you didn’t intend, which is to not look ahead of the turn at all, and only look straight ahead. On the off chance that someone might come to that misunderstanding I thought it helpful to them to point it out.
It's an illusion to think any pilot being judged in performing a steep turn will have a good lookout for other traffic during this particular exercise. Isn't that why the HASEL check and other equivalents get executed?

Looking ahead will likely help to spot traffic coming from other directions, but it makes flying the steep turn also a bit more challenging. In a situation where you are trying to ace the perfect attitude and altitude and speed, the looking ahead will be lowest priority, and could be detrimental to the result of the exercise. During the exercise I would expect the examiner or the FI to fill that role.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by Pilotdaddy »

digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:38 am
It's an illusion to think any pilot being judged in performing a steep turn will have a good lookout for other traffic during this particular exercise. Isn't that why the HASEL check and other equivalents get executed?
How would the student ever practice steep turns solo?
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Re: Steep turns

Post by digits_ »

Pilotdaddy wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:29 am
digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:38 am
It's an illusion to think any pilot being judged in performing a steep turn will have a good lookout for other traffic during this particular exercise. Isn't that why the HASEL check and other equivalents get executed?
How would the student ever practice steep turns solo?
By looking around the area in advance during the HASEL check, or by accepting some bigger variations during the excercise if he's worried and looks outside more.

If you're practicing steep turns, and only look at the nose, you'll still be scanning the whole horizon once every 30 seconds at least, so I doubt it's a really a major issue.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by Pilotdaddy »

digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:31 am
Pilotdaddy wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:29 am
digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:38 am
It's an illusion to think any pilot being judged in performing a steep turn will have a good lookout for other traffic during this particular exercise. Isn't that why the HASEL check and other equivalents get executed?
How would the student ever practice steep turns solo?
By looking around the area in advance during the HASEL check, or by accepting some bigger variations during the excercise if he's worried and looks outside more.

If you're practicing steep turns, and only look at the nose, you'll still be scanning the whole horizon once every 30 seconds at least, so I doubt it's a really a major issue.
If the one second that takes to look over your shoulders results in "bigger variations", I wonder if maybe the fix is to practice more so that it doesn't, versus eliminating the lookout while into the turn altogether.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by digits_ »

Pilotdaddy wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:44 am
digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:31 am
Pilotdaddy wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:29 am

How would the student ever practice steep turns solo?
By looking around the area in advance during the HASEL check, or by accepting some bigger variations during the excercise if he's worried and looks outside more.

If you're practicing steep turns, and only look at the nose, you'll still be scanning the whole horizon once every 30 seconds at least, so I doubt it's a really a major issue.
If the one second that takes to look over your shoulders results in "bigger variations", I wonder if maybe the fix is to practice more so that it doesn't, versus eliminating the lookout while into the turn altogether.
It might not be much, but it's bound to be a bigger variation than when you focus on looking straight ahead. In a testing scenario that can be significant.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by Conflicting Traffic »

digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:38 am It's an illusion to think any pilot being judged in performing a steep turn will have a good lookout for other traffic during this particular exercise.
A proper lookout is part of the performance of a steep turn. So, yes, they are (and should be) assessed on the inclusion of a proper lookout.
digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:38 am Isn't that why the HASEL check and other equivalents get executed?
The HASEL check is not a required element of the steep turn. Many people choose to do it, and that's fine, but if they choose to omit it in the context of a flight test, it has no bearing on their final assessment.
digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:38 am Looking ahead will likely help to spot traffic coming from other directions, but it makes flying the steep turn also a bit more challenging. In a situation where you are trying to ace the perfect attitude and altitude and speed, the looking ahead will be lowest priority, and could be detrimental to the result of the exercise. During the exercise I would expect the examiner or the FI to fill that role.
The Flight Test Guide includes the following element in the Performance Criteria:
Flight Test Guide wrote: perform and maintain an effective lookout before and during the turn
Pilotdaddy wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:44 am If the one second that takes to look over your shoulders results in "bigger variations", I wonder if maybe the fix is to practice more so that it doesn't, versus eliminating the lookout while into the turn altogether.
This.
photofly wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:29 am The poster may also have an issue with where “straight” actually is. If sitting left of centre in a side-by-side airplane it’s easy to use the prop spinner or cowl center as the sight line, which is of course not straight. So perhaps this student could work on an appreciation of where the horizon should sit, in front of their nose, too.
Also this. To the OP: Are your errors generally random, or do they have a consistent pattern? If you are consistently descending/accelerating in a left turn and climbing/decelerating in a right turn (assuming you're sitting in the left seat), this parallax error is almost certainly your problem. Talk to your instructor to help find references on your aircraft to eliminate/compensate for the parallax.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by digits_ »

Conflicting Traffic wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 12:59 pm
digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:38 am It's an illusion to think any pilot being judged in performing a steep turn will have a good lookout for other traffic during this particular exercise.
A proper lookout is part of the performance of a steep turn. So, yes, they are (and should be) assessed on the inclusion of a proper lookout.


The Flight Test Guide includes the following element in the Performance Criteria:
Flight Test Guide wrote: perform and maintain an effective lookout before and during the turn
Ok. Let me rephrase: in my opinion looking outside straight ahead during your scan while you are performing the steep turn exercise meets the definition of 'effective lookout' from the flight test guide.


Question for the examiners on this board: what percentage of candidates looks to the side during the steep turn exercise? Did any of those that only looked outside straight ahead (and flew the exercise accurately) ever got a 4?
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Re: Steep turns

Post by photofly »

Anyone can fly a steep turn looking only at the instruments. Or even only looking at the horizon in front of the plane. The whole challenge is to maintain altitude, airspeed and bank angle while devoting 80% - 90% attention in the direction you’re turning.

It’s not a coincidence that the lookout is item (a) on the list of criteria. The precision elements are (e) and (f).

I would think of it as a safe turn with a full lookout where you’re going, which has to be done with precision. I don’t think for a second a need for precision is intended to to push looking where you’re going into second place. Looking only or mostly forward would be just as wrong in this turn as in any turn. It’s just another turn, after all.
digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:25 pm Question for the examiners on this board: what percentage of candidates looks to the side during the steep turn exercise? Did any of those that only looked outside straight ahead (and flew the exercise accurately) ever got a 4?
Not an examiner, but my knowledge of the marking standards for this exercise suggests that the answer to the first part is "all the ones who pass" and the second part is "none of them got a 4 because they all scored 1, failing the flight test and triggering clause (b) of the following section of the fight test guide:
The examiner will stop a test, assess it “1”, and a complete re-test will be required if the candidate
jeopardizes safety by:
(a) displaying unsafe or dangerous flying that is not linked to a lack of proficiency or training; or
(b) demonstrating a pattern of failing to use proper visual scanning techniques to check for traffic
before and while performing visual manoeuvres.
thereby rendering themselves ineligible for a partial re-test on that exercise.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by Conflicting Traffic »

digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:25 pm Ok. Let me rephrase: in my opinion looking outside straight ahead during your scan while you are performing the steep turn exercise meets the definition of 'effective lookout' from the flight test guide.
Straight ahead is not where the aircraft is going, so I would reject that. Further, even if the aircraft was going forward (e.g. - in S&L) collision threats aren't exclusively forward. There are plenty of collision geometries that involve lateral collisions as opposed to head-on.
digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:25 pm Question for the examiners on this board: what percentage of candidates looks to the side during the steep turn exercise?
I think to address this question, we need to first distinguish between two separate issues:
  1. what constitutes a proper lookout, and
  2. how do we assess the lookout from the instructor/examiner seat.
I would definitely assert that looking into a turn is part of a proper lookout. And I would hope that that's not controversial. However, it's very difficult to assess the quality of a candidate's lookout from the right seat: judging head movement is difficult, and judging eye movement is near impossible.

As for your question, all of them that pass. The problem, is the assessment difficulty noted above: the candidate's head moved -- was that because we hit a bump, or were they cross-checking an instrument, or were they looking out? Who knows? If they were looking out, did their eyes move? and if so, did they move the right way -- did they break the sky/ground into pieces and look at each one, or did they "sweep" their eyes across their viewing range?
digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:25 pm Did any of those that only looked outside straight ahead (and flew the exercise accurately) ever got a 4?
No. If it's clear that a lookout is not being performed, the exercise is unsuccessful.

I have, on more than one occasion, had to assess an exercise unsuccessful on a flight test due to improper lookout, despite proficient aircraft handling. It doesn't happen often because of the difficulty in getting a valid assessment. And I have no doubt that I've had to issue higher assessments despite a poor/inadequate lookout because identifying the poor lookout is so difficult.

But the problem(s) we have in assessing a proper lookout are peculiar to the flight test. On a training flight, when you're in an instructing role, it's much easier to address the lookout by asking questions, providing verbal prompting, varying exercises to vary the lookout, etc. The fact that we have difficulty testing the lookout does not mean that we should compromise on teaching it.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:54 pm
It’s not a coincidence that the lookout is item (a) on the list of criteria. The precision elements are (e) and (f).
I don't think that means (a) is more important than (e) and (f). If you look at most exercises, the points that are being assessed are listed in somewhat chronological order, followed by items that are judged throughout the whole exercise.

Conflicting Traffic wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:35 pm
But the problem(s) we have in assessing a proper lookout are peculiar to the flight test. On a training flight, when you're in an instructing role, it's much easier to address the lookout by asking questions, providing verbal prompting, varying exercises to vary the lookout, etc. The fact that we have difficulty testing the lookout does not mean that we should compromise on teaching it.
That is a very good point. But that begs the question: why are we teaching steep turns? You are training it almost exclusively to pass the flight test. I've never encountered a situation in which a steep turn has been required, let alone a 180 or 360 degree one. I can't even imagine when that would be necessary, especially VFR.

Some other points to consider:
1) how many seconds are there between a lookout in a spin exercise, and the moment that you are able to control the airplane again when you see an airplane? 10? 20 seconds? And we find that acceptable. Yet spotting potential traffic 10 seconds later in a steep turn, would be unacceptable?
2) how many degrees of vision do you gain by turning your head into the turn in a typical trainer (c172)? The wing is fairly low. Perhaps 10 or 20 degrees? Once established in the turn, you would see that traffic 5 seconds later anyway.
3) how many students, focusing on flying a steep turn accurately, would even recognize an airplane, if they look to the side? It's probably the exercise that has the most tunnel vision inducing effect.


The reason I'm a bit surprised by this requirement, is that in 8 flight tests where I've had to demonstrate, and multiple more training events, nobody has ever told me, judged me or even given a remark that you can't just look at the nose for the exercise, and that looking into the turn during the steep turn exercise was so important. Perhaps I'm just a natural, or perhaps I shouldn't be flying (a sentiment with which some avcanada posters would agree I'm sure :wink: ), or perhaps it's not really judged *that* way. The general consensus seemed to be that the steep turn is basically one big lookout exercise, you're scanning the whole horizon...

I'm wondering if it's a local flavor of examiners that require you to look into the turn during a steep turn exercise.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:31 am That is a very good point. But that begs the question: why are we teaching steep turns? You are training it almost exclusively to pass the flight test. I've never encountered a situation in which a steep turn has been required, let alone a 180 or 360 degree one. I can't even imagine when that would be necessary, especially VFR.
I hope we're teaching 45° banked turns because they're a normal and every day part of flying a small airplane. Other than in a climb, more or less every turn requiring any significant change in heading I will do at 45° bank. It's fundamentally wrong to think of a "steep turn" as anything special. I accept that for novices they are challenging to do accurately, which is why they're worth assessing. But when you're a pilot, they're standard fare. Or should be.
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